Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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I think using skinsend on people other than the caster should be banned in society play. It is thematically inappropriate in the same way that the vivisectionist archtype was.
Moreover, it is also overpowered to have a level 2 spell that when combined with Poisoner's Golves or Touch Injection, renders a target helpless on a touch attack with no save, and possibly sets its health at zero.
While the spell is questionable for use on yourself, using it on others should not be allowed in society play.
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I think it may be one of those occasions of separate developers being unaware of what each was working on.
I don't believe the spell's writer considered the possibility of it being castable as anything other than a personal-only spell. Hence the 'no save' part.
I think at the very least, it should allow a save, which the target can always elect to fail (if being used as a personal spell, or a willing target).
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Oh, I'm sure they didn't think of being able to use spells with a range of personal against other targets. And while I've seen that debate going on in the main forums, I wanted to bring it to PFS attention as well. You're probably right - they should all get a save. This is just the one that struck me most as out of line.
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You know, if someone is targeted as you describe all they have to do is spend a standard action to return their skin to the body, right?
Even then, it is a pretty sneaky combo. I'll leave it to the experts to determine how bad it really may be/is. My guess is the problem comes from an alchemist using skinsend on an enemy, and his fighter buddy next to him CDG's the helpless body, effectively killing the target.
My solution to this is this seems like a VERY gruesome and nasty tactic, and would have alignment repercussions for both the alchemist and the CDG'er. Not only are you killing the person, but you are forcing him to watch you do it, and then they get to wait for a few hours in their skin to die off. Anyone doing this more than a few times at my tables would end up removed from the campaign.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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I don't see a problem when you have spells like Baneful Polymorph that ends an encounter immediately.
One's a 2nd level spell + an item + an alchemist discovery. Built for it, you can start doing 2 per day at level 4.
Baleful Polymorph is a 5th level spell and allows a save. Earliest you're casting it is what, 9th level?
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You still have to get your alchemist up to the guy to force him to take your infused extract.
I don't know how the gloves work, but I'm imagining its at least a touch attack if not a full on attack.
Does it provoke an AoO?
Then, basically all you are doing is losing the guy a standard action, and half his hit points.
At low levels, a single swing of a sword can do that.
I'm really not all that worried about it.
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It's a touch attack that does not provoke. It does require you to have pre-loaded skinsend into your 2/day gloves; however, it is definitely one of the better combinations for an alchemist.
I think there should be a save allowed, but I would have to look at what an infusion does to spells that normally allow no save.
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Infusion doesn't say what it does to spells that allow no save.
Infusions just make it so you can allow someone else to drink your extract or mutagen.
Its the gloves or touch injection that allow you to inject someone with a potion. Then the potion takes effect immediately.
Basically you have to do this:
You have to be an alchemist.
you have to be at least 4th level with at least a 14 Intelligence.
You have to have both of your 2nd level recipes are skinsend and touch injection or you can replace the 2nd extract with the gloves.
But the WBL says at 4th level you have 10,800gp. And you'd have to have gotten 18PP to purchase the gloves. That means that at 4th level you have gotten every single PP possible, and you are spending half your earned gold on just the gloves.
So yeah, while you COULD do this at 4th level, and you COULD do this twice per day... it is such an extreme build that it really doesn't concern me.
Especially since the person you affect can just dispel the effects of the skinsend anyways.
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On what basis? Nothing within the rules would suggest they do.I read the gloves. They don't say they don't provoke on the touch attack.
They simply say it requires a melee touch attack.
I'd say they provoke.
Sure there is.
If you try to make an unarmed attack (which this melee touch attack is), you provoke an attack of opportunity.
Attacks that are unarmed (this is) that don't provoke an attack of opportunity (such as a touch spell) say so.
Applying a potion (which is essentially what this is) provokes an attack of opportunity.
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Sure there is.
If you try to make an unarmed attack (which this melee touch attack is), you provoke an attack of opportunity.
Andrew your homework for tonight is to read the entire latest print of PFRPG Core book. Start with page 185, then read from the beginning. I expect a written report in the morning. ;)
melee touch attacks don't provoke.
Melee Touched attacks are considered Armed attacks not unarmed attacks.
Now Ranged Touch attacks are considered range attacks which do provoke.
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Sure there is.
If you try to make an unarmed attack (which this melee touch attack is), you provoke an attack of opportunity.
Andrew your homework for tonight is to read the entire latest print of PFRPG Core book. Start with page 185, then read from the beginning. I expect a written report in the morning. ;)
melee touch attacks don't provoke.
Melee Touched attacks are considered Armed attacks not unarmed attacks.
Now Ranged Touch attacks are considered range attacks which do provoke.
I am well aware of the rules of using a touch spell Dragnmoon. But there is no language that carte blanche says a “melee touch attack” doesn’t provoke. It only says that the touch attack to deliver a spell doesn't provoke.
In this case, whether it be the gloves or the touch injection you are not delivering a spell, but rather delivering a potion.
Delivering a potion provokes an attack of opportunity.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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...The gloves are used primarily by assassins to deliver poisons while in combat.
Each glove may be filled with a single dose of poison, a potion, alchemist infusion, holy water, or similar liquid as long as the liquid would not harm the gloves (for example, alchemist’s fire and acid cannot be used). The wearer can deliver the dose to a target as a melee touch attack or as part of an unarmed strike or natural attack with the hands (such as a claw or slam attack). The wearer can use both gloves in the same round using two-weapon fighting or multiple natural attacks (such as 2 slams or 2 claws). Each glove can be used once per day. Filling a glove is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
It seems to allow a carrier effect to another attack. I wouldn't think that the rules for applying a potion (technically, an oil) to another person would apply.
The reason that a character can deliver a spell with a touch attack, and not provoke an attack of opportunity, is that the character is essentially armed, with a spell. In this case, the character with the gloves is armed in the same way. Delivering a touch spell seems a closer analogue.
If a character decided to attempt an unarmed strike, and didn't know how to make an IUS, then I think that would provoke an AoO.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I am well aware of the rules of using a touch spell Dragnmoon. But there is no language that carte blanche says a “melee touch attack” doesn’t provoke. It only says that the touch attack to deliver a spell doesn't provoke.
In this case, whether it be the gloves or the touch injection you are not delivering a spell, but rather delivering a potion.
Delivering a potion provokes an attack of opportunity.
Okay, so to make sure I'm following your reasoning here:
Delivering a touch spell does not provoke.Drinking a potion provokes.
Delivering a potion by touch via a spell or magic item is more similar to drinking a potion than it is to delivering a touch spell, and therefore provokes.
Did I follow that right?
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Additionally, delivering the potion is not doing it via a spell.
It is doing it via a touch attack. The spell creates a sack under your skin where you store the potion you want to deliver.
The reason that touch spells don't provoke, is because there is a visible representation of that spell that looks dangerous, so your opponent has to respect that you can damage him with that touch.
If I walk up to a badguy and try to touch him, and he doesn't want me to touch him, that will require a touch attack.
Are you trying to say that because its a touch attack, it doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity, even if all I'm doing is simply touching him?
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Andrew your homework for tonight is to read the entire latest print of PFRPG Core book.I'm amused at the thought of a guy with a misspelled name giving out homework. ;)
Here is an off topic story
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So yeah, while you COULD do this at 4th level, and you COULD do this twice per day... it is such an extreme build that it really doesn't concern me.Especially since the person you affect can just dispel the effects of the skinsend anyways.
Extreme build are the ones you REALLY SHOULD worry about. It's builds like this that ends up breaking PFS scenarios into it's too easy cakewalk complaints after all. Trying to reduces these abuses would go much further into balance issues in PFS then...say the play up and WBL issue that is being tackled currently. I would rather that the campaign heads would make PFS ruling on issues like this one to be honest.
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Extreme build are the ones you REALLY SHOULD worry about. It's builds like this that ends up breaking PFS scenarios into it's too easy cakewalk complaints after all. Trying to reduces these abuses would go much further into balance issues in PFS then...say the play up and WBL issue that is being tackled currently. I would rather that the campaign heads would make PFS ruling on issues like this one to be honest.
So yeah, while you COULD do this at 4th level, and you COULD do this twice per day... it is such an extreme build that it really doesn't concern me.Especially since the person you affect can just dispel the effects of the skinsend anyways.
But it isn't that big of an issue.
You take away half their hit points and make them lose a standard action, and maybe have to deal with a CoG.
Hold Person allows a save true, but it doesn't require the Alchemist to get into harms way and deliver a touch attack. It also makes the badguy helpless for the CoG as well. That's a 2nd level spell.
Is it powerful? Sure, but no more powerful than many other things that can accomplish the same goal more than 2 times per day maximum.
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Hold person doesn't do half your HP in damage. Hold person has a save. Hold person only works on humanoids.
I think your seriously under-estimating a no save, wide target helpless for one round and half HP effect. The issue with this isn't JUST at level 4 after all. At higher tier, a no save half HP damage is pretty dang nice. Getting a shot at a CDG is nothing to sneeze at either. Seriously, this combo and other like it is why you get comments of scenarios being a cake walk.
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I have to admit that I think that both touch injection with skin-send and polypurpose pancea is pretty cheesy and probably should be removed. I have a character that preps these as rainy day options but I do feel dirty even saying that I am prepping them. The no save part is simply overpowered. I personally think that pancea is more powerful than skin send, even if it doesn't look as cool.
For example, a couple of weeks ago I got talked into playing up into a 7-9 with my 5th level character that had no business being in that scenario with that party. In the last fight the Big Bad came out and did an AoE that shut everyone down except for me; I was hiding way in the back. I charged in with a perfect strike, touch injection and shut down the BBEG single handedly. I don't think anyone could argue that this is balanced. In a world with touch injection infusions, all personal spells should have saves.
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I have to admit that I think that both touch injection with skin-send and polypurpose pancea is pretty cheesy and probably should be removed. I have a character that preps these as rainy day options but I do feel dirty even saying that I am prepping them. The no save part is simply overpowered. I personally think that pancea is more powerful than skin send, even if it doesn't look as cool.
For example, a couple of weeks ago I got talked into playing up into a 7-9 with my 5th level character that had no business being in that scenario with that party. In the last fight the Big Bad came out and did an AoE that shut everyone down except for me; I was hiding way in the back. I charged in with a perfect strike, touch injection and shut down the BBEG single handedly. I don't think anyone could argue that this is balanced. In a world with touch injection infusions, all personal spells should have saves.
And yet here we are with people that is arguing that this combo is in fact not out of line.
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And yet here we are with people that is arguing that this combo is in fact not out of line.
Well I did pancea him (sleep for 1 hour) instead of skinsend him. I can't remember how many minutes my party was paralyzed for, but if I had just ripped his skin he would have been able to still kill us all, as I couldn't have killed him even with him losing a round, half life, and going prone. But I think the principle still applies. Both spells are being used in a way that was not anticipated and they work much more effectively than anything remotely close in level.
Also it really isn't that hard to build to this combo, all it really requires is the infusion extract discovery. An alchemist can add spells to his spellbook almost as easily as a wizard. My character is built to be a bomber-controller, but saw this combo and thought it well worth the price of a discovery that also does other cool stuff.
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Yeah...the panacea is pretty god aweful powerful too.
I wonder why infusion don't have a can't be used on personal spell clause. I just realized that monstrous physique 2 is on the alchemist list...oh the pain that will cause when given to the party fighter. Sigh...I think a thread maybe needed in the rules section about this after all.
Andrew your homework for tonight is to read the entire latest print of PFRPG Core book.I'm amused at the thought of a guy with a misspelled name giving out homework. ;)Here is an off topic story
** spoiler omitted **
I, for one, have no desire to have a dragon moon me.
No sir, I don't.
-j
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Andrew your homework for tonight is to read the entire latest print of PFRPG Core book.I'm amused at the thought of a guy with a misspelled name giving out homework. ;)Here is an off topic story
** spoiler omitted **
I, for one, have no desire to have a dragon moon me.
No sir, I don't.
Have you ever seen a Dragon wear pants?
Have you ever seen a Dragon wear pants?Andrew your homework for tonight is to read the entire latest print of PFRPG Core book.I'm amused at the thought of a guy with a misspelled name giving out homework. ;)Here is an off topic story
** spoiler omitted **
I, for one, have no desire to have a dragon moon me.
No sir, I don't.
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Does polypurpose even work? You choose the effect when you drink the extract, so I would assume the person being injected would choose his effect, not you
Hm. My guess is it would follow the rules for potions, for which if they have multiple effects you have to declare which effect you are picking upon creation.
For example, potion of resist energy (fire) the creator must have picked fire on creation, not upon drinking.
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Does polypurpose even work? You choose the effect when you drink the extract, so I would assume the person being injected would choose his effect, not you
I thought this at first too, but an alchemist casts extracts as if imbibing a potion and the rules for potions state that the creator, not the imbiber, chooses the effects of the spell. It specifically says the imbiber of the potion does not get to make any decisions regarding the effect.