Goblin Squad Member
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Alternatively, much like with EvE, players may be given the option to 'be' Goblins for a few days as part of an event, with their class choices and roughly equal gear to the normal toons generated using a Goblin model, and then are given the mission of attacking a settlement within a week.
Would be rather interesting to see a hundred or so 'leveled' Goblins with more NPC Goblins following them charging the Settlements in character.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Alternatively, much like with EvE, players may be given the option to 'be' Goblins for a few days as part of an event, with their class choices and roughly equal gear to the normal toons generated using a Goblin model, and then are given the mission of attacking a settlement within a week.
Would be rather interesting to see a hundred or so 'leveled' Goblins with more NPC Goblins following them charging the Settlements in character.
That would be amazing. It might be what they have in mind for the alpha-level kickstart supporters; and I hope it's successful enough to open up to more players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Alternatively, much like with EvE, players may be given the option to 'be' Goblins for a few days as part of an event, with their class choices and roughly equal gear to the normal toons generated using a Goblin model, and then are given the mission of attacking a settlement within a week.
Would be rather interesting to see a hundred or so 'leveled' Goblins with more NPC Goblins following them charging the Settlements in character.
I'd love to see this. I'd actually much prefer that GoblinWorks take this path rather than opening up monstrous races to PCs - either as a free option, a paid option, or a random "hi, you've unlocked a Dhampir character slot!" Maybe it's just memories of horrid Mary Sue types, but I've seen very, very few non-standard character races played well, and that makes me leery of them.
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I won't belabor the point too much but there is this...there are some settlements that allow goblins to live there. If you read the Thornkeep book, there is a goblin tribe living in the town and they are tolerated by the Baron. Granted, the Baron is a werewolf and too lazy to do anything about a group that isn't a direct threat to him, but no one in town knows that. The fact that Thornkeep is the starter "outlaw" town, it seems likely that there is a precedence for goblins that control themselves enough to get by in the worst kinds of settlements.
The thing is, Thornkeep is a total borderline anarchy. It's equivalent to the Thistletop goblins living near Sandpoint.
I second HalfOrc's idea. It seems most plausible to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the desire for non-core races is a reflection of players' wish to always push the envelope?
Reading this makes me think so: The players' desire to either have a very robust rule system or enough space for their own input (imaginative possibilities) and sometimes a bit of both? Certainly reading the extensive comments makes me think that might be the case.
Old School Dungeons & Dragons: Wizards of the Coast's Problem Child
Again the fact the skills will not be defined ahead of the moving present, is good as there is growth of the game in pace with the players progress. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Alternatively, much like with EvE, players may be given the option to 'be' Goblins for a few days as part of an event, with their class choices and roughly equal gear to the normal toons generated using a Goblin model, and then are given the mission of attacking a settlement within a week.
While this seems not only plausible but actually likely (and I think partially confirmed); I'm just not a fan of the idea of being given a character only to have it taken away. I tend to get attached to my characters.
Would be rather interesting to see a hundred or so 'leveled' Goblins with more NPC Goblins following them charging the Settlements in character.
I would definitely love to be able to lead an army of NPCs. I would like to see ways of doing that that don't require special events.
1) Monster 'races' should be very expensive to purchase, with the more 'powerful' monster races costing extreme amounts of real-life money...
I also am not a fan of the idea of buying races from the store, that's like punishing people for being poor. I'm especially against being able to buy more powerful races. As soon as players can buy power a game is just stupid broken. Pay to win is not fun.
3) Before any transactions take place, the request for a Monster race is sent to the Game Masters/Moderators, with the option for the transaction to vetoed by Goblinworks...
I'm against adding powerful races that would require this level of policing to begin with. If a race need this much regulation just to play then it does not belong in the hands of players. I thought we were talking about playing uncommon and rare pathfinder races, not dragons and such (though I am totally for playing dragons in temporary event things like what you described above).
4) Most 'Monster' races will be unwelcome in NPC domain, and might cause penalities to the Development Indexes of settlements of opposing alignments to their normal alignment, but a suitably dedicated 'Monster' PC might be able to mitigate that.
I'm partially for this. I think though that most settlements being player-run combined with common xenophobia and racism will result in a lot of settlements banning monsters races naturally. I don't think specific game mechanics to enforce this will be necessary.(I do not support racism, I'm simply accounting for it's existence.)
5) Certain Monsters would be just too hard to code in. Vampires go poof in the sunlight, cannot cross water and cannot enter a private dwelling or building without permission, for one thing, and Natural Werewolves can potentially infect everyone they meet with a bite, but a Infected Werewolf can't control themselves on the night of a full moon, which could cause the player to rampage around a settlement and kill off vital NPCs/PCs.
...yep, I think that you've latched too much onto the word "monster" though. While I'd love to play a werewolf, I also do not see a way to implement them cleanly.
6) Nothing too outlandish. Half-Dragons, Minotaurs, Ogres and other CR 6-8 monsters only, no Half-Fiends or Half-Celestials or anything that might lock players out of...
CR 6 to 8!? Ye gads man, try CR 1/4 to CR 1...
Okay, obviously I addressed these posts in the wrong order. You're idea of temporarily playing a "monster race" as a special event now makes more sense. I fully support it for the opportunity to play as some higher CR monsters. I just thought this thread was about something else...|
Goblin Squad Member
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Ooh, had an idea for werewolves though:
Taking out the ability for players to infect others is an obvious start, but natural werewolf NPCs can still infect players.
For the afflicted, the transformations wouldn't happen while the player is logged in, instead when they log out a hostile werewolf NPC based off the player will start spawning in that area. It will attack players and other NPCs but flee when significantly damaged. While they're logged out werewolf attacks will continue off and on and the player will take hits to their alignment and reputation. This will stop while they're logged in and they can try and balance this out with good deeds and wander into the wilderness before logging off to reduce the damage. They will also have motive to try and find a cure.
Meanwhile other players might be able to deduce who the werewolf is and put a bounty on them, especially if they keep logging out in settlements. Perhaps they could even put a bounty on themself. If they're slain by a bounty hunter wielding silver it could count as being cured, since the beast was slain.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Werewolves traditionally only ran wild during the nights before, during and after the Full Moon. Players with the Infected Werewolf template might operate normally for 27 days a month, and even be able to control their curse to some extentent, but the power that template provides comes at a cost. During the three days of the 'Full Moon', a Werewolf Player is likely going to turn around and lock himself in a heavily fortified chamber filled with meat and a self-contained source of water, either a specially prepared basement to similar, with a 2-foot thick steel door that can only be opened from the outside.
Player then logs onto another character for those 3 days, praying that there's no thieves in the community that might decide to check out the hidden bunker and accidentally release 'his' Werewolf on the town.
Also, so long as nobody KNOWS you are the Werewolf, IE the NPCs, your character shouldn't be taking any hits in Reputation.
You Alignment however will take a beating, and the Development Indexes will go down from a Werewolf running around and killing folks.
Your newspeak plusungood. Badwrongfun obsolete by plusunfun.
I had taken it, not as an allusion to Orwell, but as a way to put a sharp point on the issue at hand: many idiots oppose the inclusion of non-core races on purely selfish and/or ideological grounds. It's a matter of taste, and some people think their taste should supersede others'.
Given that the players are assumed to be Heroic characters at the table... I have personally never seen a reason to deny anyone their fun, however they may get it. Whether it's by endless variations of a Sue, rollplaying to the minmax, or by being the DM. I'm perhaps a tad bored of Humans being represented in every fantasy universe (how does that even make sense in the first place?! I mean, really...), let alone how they've always been so outrageously powerful mechanically in the d20 system, but I think it bears repeating that the players are by their nature supposed to be the unique, the unusual, the exotic, the tip of the curve. So what if "everyone" will play the race which the lore dictates is ultra-rare? If you take a sample of a population by actively selecting the most outstanding members of that population, it will be the players themselves.
I say the only badwrongfun is cockblocking the players from enjoying their fantasy their own way. And that's all it really comes down to. Someone wants to stop someone else from expressing themselves just because they have their own idea about how everyone else should behave.
The fitting punishment for such bad manners is to maroon them as a mundane joe in an ocean of sparkling snowflakes...
I only want vampires to exist as PCs later on. I don't think the current graphics will be able to sustain constant sparkling.
Being introduced to the game later than the other races would be, mechanically, a level adjustment. Which I've always hated the very concept of.
And it's one of the key critiques of EVE that there is a permanent power difference based on age.
And. It's one of my main objections to PFO: that you'd better get into the big boy's club on the ground floor or else you'll forever be the tiny fish in the pond. Ageism is just as bad as racism and sexism. It's frankly horrifying to think of it being codified and enforced by game mechanics.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Aunt Tony - there's some upfront things to consider maybe?
1. I was reading recently that about 2/3 of RPG players in TT games use the "core 4" races: iirc they were: Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfing/Gnome (I can't remember exactly but the archetype)
2. Given the above maybe applies to mmorpgs also, and comes from Pathfinder RPG, then those make sense to start with. As already discussed that is already a lot I work for a limited/small art team at Goblin Works.
=
No that is out of the way, of course I'd love to see more races and beyond mere reskins too in the future. Given the above all follow the main progression system of skills; do the alternative races need alternative or at least variations in their progression to reflect their alternative nature or essential differences from being a "core race"?
I think that is a question that derives logically, though in terms of a growing player population it might be a contention between providing more mainstream choices OR adding more ALTERNATIVE choices for expression for players who wish to travel away from the "mainstream"?
In fact what I like about the second possibility though it is adding options for a more limited sub-set o players is: A part of the game that allows players to experiment with the basic rules (in this case progression and character investment). Looking at RPGs history the contention between rules, GMs, players, story & improvisation seems a relevant angle to look at such future additions.
That's how I'm seeing future races, it might be nothing like what GW's plans or crowd forging or otherwise turns out to be,
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Goblin Squad Member
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'Monstrous' Races might also be available via a few options.
1) Sign up to BE the enemy for a Goblinworks-advertised event, taking the reins of a Monster NPC and having it's skills auto-'corrected' to match yours, for ease of playstyle. This is a one-use 'event' however.
2) Lottery. You will a lottery, which allows you to pick one of a small selection of 'playable' monsters to have as your Character, either replacing the one you have or starting off at 'level 1' as a whole new character.
In this method, people can't become 'sues' instantaneously.
3) 'Expansions'. Normally a dirty word, but in a free-flowing player-driven game like Pathfinder Online, let's assume we have the whole BLUFF/DIPLOMACY/INTIMIDATE/SENSE MOTIVE act in the works, and we can talk with the NPCs.
Settlement ICANHAZCHEEZBURGER has, through rigiorous diplomacy and hefty bribes of raddishes, managed to bring the local Kobold Tribe under their banner.
In that Settlement, Kobolds are assigned all rights and responsibilities as a 'normal' Humanoid ... and as a reward, Goblinworks allows players to 'spawn' new characters as Kobolds in this Hex.
Suddenly we have Kobold PCs running around with the rest of us, and that's awesome ... but if the players ever lose the Hex the Settlement is in, or a rival band of players decides this is wrong/bad/unfun and must be rectified, they might decide to wipe out the Kobold Lair ... and now there's no more chances for Kobold PCs to be created unless the original crew get in there and 'repair' the Lair and restock it with Kobold Eggs or something similar.
Alternatively, down the line, Goblinworks might say "Well, the average player-level is around 10th now ... newer players get a small XP-speed boost, and players can choose a slightly more powerful race to level as normal."
I must stress again, if we do get the option of 'Non-Standard' races, they should come from the store and be quite expensive. $100 for an Aasimar or Tiefling will cut down on their numbers, but still allow them to exist within the game. More powerful monsters might spike in at even higher costs, such as Ogres, Half-Dragons and the like, to keep their rarity down.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's the problem I have with the "Make rare PC races, and make sure they stay rare" argument. What you're effectively asking is "Spend development resources, and make sure most of the player base can't use the result." I have less of a problem with something like the monster casting they're doing for alphas, because they only have to create the specific assets they know will be used, many of which will be the same ones the enemies need when controlled by AI (graphics, animations, attacks), because they aren't intended to be a full playable character. Players will be handed a temporary avatar with prebuilt abilities, and can just pilot them in place of the AI.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's the problem I have with the "Make rare PC races, and make sure they stay rare" argument. What you're effectively asking is "Spend development resources, and make sure most of the player base can't use the result."
I've already noted that is a conundrum. With the main races, I think there will already be a lot of potential variety for players in combination with: Settlements, Alignments and different areas of the map interacting with each other and therefore the potential for diverse communities to exist. This is or could be a good result already.
The question of non-core races could be broken down further:
1) Add non-core races to the core ones as additional options that fall into mainstream use. This is good as the population rises.
2) Some races perhaps due to what Pathfinder lore already sets in stone could be playable but would not make sense if they were implemented exactly as the above? Secondly if there is an alternative progression or different "role" to play for such alternative races, does this add another layer of complexity to the game and is it worth it?
One way to implement 2) I think is indeed "monster cast" events. Are there any others?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's the problem I have with the "Make rare PC races, and make sure they stay rare" argument. What you're effectively asking is "Spend development resources, and make sure most of the player base can't use the result." I have less of a problem with something like the monster casting they're doing for alphas, because they only have to create the specific assets they know will be used, many of which will be the same ones the enemies need when controlled by AI (graphics, animations, attacks), because they aren't intended to be a full playable character. Players will be handed a temporary avatar with prebuilt abilities, and can just pilot them in place of the AI.
It's a double-edged sword.
Spend the resources on 'non-standard' races that could be spent polishing other areas of the game, and with then put a limiter on the availability of those 'non-standard' races could end up costing a lot of money and even some accounts as players get offended at being denied instant gratification.
On the other hand, don't do it, and players will become frustrated that 'their' favourite race isn't available, even though the setting is right.
And yet if you do make these 'rare' races available ... they might flood the game, as Blood Elves and later Worgen did in WoW. On the roleplay servers, Blood Elves can make up anywhere from 30-60% of the Horde population on average, even years after the expansion.
Worgen were a little bit of a 'flash in a pan' effect, mostly due to how the female models looked more like the result of an anorexic and a ferret being shunted through a telepod ala 'The Fly' movies.
Also, looking at the area that the game will be situated in, it also means some races won't be present in large numbers, but others will. Humans will be present because it's a mainly Human effort to push back the Worldwound.
Elves will be present in small numbers, I believe, because there are old Elven ruins from before their race fled from Glorarion the first time.
Dwarves have a vested interest due to geography, I believe, as if the Worldwound spreads south-west, it's going to push the Orcs forwards against the Dwarves, and a pitched battle against the desperate Orcs will leave the Dwarves greviously wounded and wide-open to Demonic invasion.
Halflings are everywhere, to make money and a living, and spying upon, and attempting to free their kin held in slavery by, any arm of the Hellknights and their Chelaxian overlords is always on the agenda.
Half-Elves can function with either Human or Elven interests, or might just be wanting to do the right thing.
Half-Orcs might be functioning with a Human interest, or they might just be looking to earn some respect fighting for a cause where the line between good and evil is clear-cut for once.
Gnomes ... !@#$, who knows, they're Gnomes, Gods only know what goes on in those tiny little heads!
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Goblin Squad Member
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All of the core races will be in the game by the time the game actually launches. Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Half-Elves, Half-orcs, and Gnomes are in, and will likely be in at least halfway through Early Enrollment.
As for non-core races, those will likly not be available before open enrollment, and who knows what might get picked. Goblins, Kobolds, and Kenku seem like the community favorites, but it could be anything. Maybe there will be an incursion into Numeria and we get androids. With all the Worldwound traffic maybe some people are getting friendly with the demons instead of fighting them and we get some Tieflings.
But if a race is introduced after characters have been playing a long time, then it will be rare unless there is a way to re-incarnate into it, because no one is going to want to waste over a year of character growth to start over with a new character for a race skin.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The only way to make any particular race "rare" is to make it expensive. I don't really have a problem with that, as long as it's not correspondingly more powerful.
That's not the only way. It's not even the only objective way. It's just *a* way.
Other ways include (but are not limited to):
Half-orc's Lottery suggestion.
Ultra-rare unlock drop from randomly determined mob set that changes with each drop.
Hand-picked by Goblinworks.
Unknown sequence of difficult events or tasks to be completed, that changes with each drop.
Periodic MVP vote by the playerbase.
Those are just the ones that occured to me while I was typing this. I don't think they're all good ideas, but they are alternatives to "Buy it for lots of cash". Personally, I'd prefer they be picked by GW if they really want to be rare. It would be a clear marker that you had been selected as being valuable to the game. Ultimately, though, I think making PC-race equivalents out of "rare" races is a poor decision and a waste of resources.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's not the only way.
You're right. I try to avoid using absolutes, and this reminds me why.
I think it makes a lot of sense to let the players fund the development of additional races. I'd love to see them have something like an open-ended Kickstarter, where the development work would proceed once the appropriate funding level was met. I think charging for access to those races after they've been developed is perfectly reasonable as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I appreciate atm, we have the current core races and the progression path of:
1. race
2. skill-training
3. mix and match as you like
4. characters develop value over time
5. all characters can "choose" their alignment, settlement and role
6. The heroic level is role-played.
So I think I'm right in believing that part of this discussion of "non-traditional CHARACTER races" is:
1. Different race choices period. Can we include eg "werewolves" or "goblins"?
2. When we get these races, what sort of CHARACTERS will they add to the game that are "way out of town"? ;)
3. If they become available how can they be role-played in way that follows their lore basis that adds an alternative playstyle to the game?
4. Any limitations based on 3. do compromise the viability of the devs efforts in this direction. Unless you go back to 1. .
My beef with this whole discussion, is that I do think there SHOULD be space in the game way down the road, for alternative progression paths for players to pursue that do come with higher limitations but intended to suit specific roles in the game.
We moved on from "everyone is a hero saviour of the wold" and choose between "the Good faction or the Evil faction" in a 2-faction themepark. Now with Alignment we have many shades of grey with some black and white. What about "other colors" too?
It's a matter of taste, and some people think their taste should supersede others'.
It has nothing to do with our taste and everything to do with the setting's flavor. If you want to play an MMO with lots of strange races, play World of Warcraft. And no, that's not WoW bashing. Just saying, Pathfinder is a very different setting.
Being introduced to the game later than the other races would be, mechanically, a level adjustment. Which I've always hated the very concept of.
And it's one of the key critiques of EVE that there is a permanent power difference based on age.
And. It's one of my main objections to PFO: that you'd better get into the big boy's club on the ground floor or else you'll forever be the tiny fish in the pond. Ageism is just as bad as racism and sexism. It's frankly horrifying to think of it being codified and enforced by game mechanics.
Are you really applying a serious complaint to my sparkling vampires post? :P
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Goblin Squad Member
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Are you really applying a serious complaint to my sparkling vampires post? :P
Absolutely! If vamps are going to walk around in broad daylight, I would appreciate all suntan lotion to be sparkly. How else will I know who to hire when I want to reenact Bram Stoker's book on a Settlement stage? Plus, disco ball effect without needing extra props on stage.
Interesting roleplaying opportunity: Sparkly suntan lotion convinces roaming vampires your ostentatious character is undead. Do you drink blood (accepting a debuff and possible illness) or admit you're just a stylish member of the Wedding Guild and learn firsthand the definition of exsanguinated?
Please note that the Order of the Sacred Bond does not discriminate on the basis of life status. If undead are implemented as races, we will be happy to marry you off to whomever you've cowed into agreement.
You are arguing based on the TT game where PC's are rare. In an mmorpg PC's are very common, like the most common thing in the world. When every party and army has 50% drow's, undines, catfolks, tieflings et cetera the atmosphere in the game changes drastically compared to having mostly humans. Sure some might like that kind of fantasy, but most prefers when people look like humans, which all core races except half-orcs do.
What is "exotic" shifts, sure. But so what? And at the table, too, players are who you spend the majority of your time interacting with. I really don't see a difference in this area between your monitor and the table.
In EVE its a non issue, no alliance would reject you just because you had low skills. But in EVE it costs more to revive the older your character is so having a young character has its perks as well. I'd like to see a cost of resurrecting in Pathfinder as well based on how much experience you got. As it is now high level characters can go out with average gear and then lose nothing each death which feels awful.
The cost of death can (and in EVE, does) easily become insignificant to older / wealthier players. Not to mention that older players are more powerful and therefore death is exponentially less likely to happen to them if they choose to avoid outright dangerous activities (like major fleet combat).
1. I was reading recently that about 2/3 of RPG players in TT games use the "core 4" races: iirc they were: Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfing/Gnome (I can't remember exactly but the archetype)
I think this is due almost entirely to the stigma players place against Mary Sues or any character that might possibly be mistaken as one. Which kills all the "fantasy" in fantasy when you're restricted to a tiny handful of character options. This is one of the most heinous, saddening features of the game, to me. Players should be able to and should feel free to create as fantastical a character as they like. It is no one else's place to tell you how to enjoy yourself.
So, essentially, this information doesn't really tell us why players use those races so frequently. I say it's because they know those races won't meet any opposition from anyone else at the table if they decide to use them. No one will roll their eyes and snark "of course you're gonna play a Dark Elf, you're so cheesy!" if you create a generic Human.
And, again, this is horrible. It restricts fantasy to the mundane. It undoes the very purpose of fantasy.
2. Given the above maybe applies to mmorpgs also, and comes from Pathfinder RPG, then those make sense to start with. As already discussed that is already a lot I work for a limited/small art team at Goblin Works.
GW shouldn't underestimate the talents of the playerbase. Some of us are quite capable of contributing art assets, code, etc. Look at Second Life for an example of this sort of thing.
The only way to make any particular race "rare" is to make it expensive. I don't really have a problem with that, as long as it's not correspondingly more powerful.
Actually, as we saw in DDO, the "rarer" races were usually rare in the playerbase because they had a reputation as "not as good as Humans for whatever character you're making".
Notably, the Warforged (ask Blaeringr about that) who had many excellent reasons to want to play them, but were almost universally shunned and excluded from groups (and therefore few players wanted to play as one) for the simple reason that Divine healing was less effective for them.
I'm all for races having drawbacks, flaws, penalties just as much as bonuses. It adds to characterization, but also does have a real affect on that race's popularity and commonality.
And yet if you do make these 'rare' races available ... they might flood the game, as Blood Elves and later Worgen did in WoW. On the roleplay servers, Blood Elves can make up anywhere from 30-60% of the Horde population on average, even years after the expansion.
In WoW's case, Blood Elves became so popular because they were the only Horde race that wasn't outright grotesque to look at. Aesthetics are important to players, and even more important to roleplayers. WoW serious problems with their aesthetic, and the Horde was famously underpopulated because of it.
Elves will be present in small numbers, I believe, because there are old Elven ruins from before their race fled from Glorarion the first time.
I, for one, will be playing an Elf if it is at all possible. Judging by the various polls I've seen around, Humans will outnumber every other race by quite a large margin... which really does make most of the argument against "exotic" races on the basis of the preservation of their "exoticness" -- rather moot.
It has nothing to do with our taste and everything to do with the setting's flavor. If you want to play an MMO with lots of strange races, play World of Warcraft. And no, that's not WoW bashing. Just saying, Pathfinder is a very different setting.
I was under the distinct impression that Pathfinder's default setting of Golarion was no less diverse and fantastical as Faerun...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I still advocate being able to become a monster class inside a lair through the cash store. Hardly a play-to-win, as that player is stuck in the lair, and the players can go there, or not go there, as they wish. IT could be abused by the monster player letting friends take loot, but there are fixes for that issue. I think for the most part we will all be happiest playing the characters we have been training up in the first place.
It has nothing to do with our taste and everything to do with the setting's flavor. If you want to play an MMO with lots of strange races, play World of Warcraft. And no, that's not WoW bashing. Just saying, Pathfinder is a very different setting.I was under the distinct impression that Pathfinder's default setting of Golarion was no less diverse and fantastical as Faerun...
It is diverse, but not in heroes--if you look at the core iconics, all but four are human. And of those four, there still aren't any half-orcs. Pathfinder is a world with a major focus on nonmonsters and, more specifically, on humans. It's not a world friendly to the "special snowflakes" you can expect to run into online.
Oh, and the polls you mention aren't very reliable, since they're taken from the forums. As is discussed on another thread on these forums, that sample favors the people who--not to sound snobby, as this description only half applies to me--understand and want to be a part of the design process. The sort of people who decide to play a reformed drow with an albino panther or whatever aren't the sort of people who take part in those polls.
Oh, and the polls you mention aren't very reliable, since they're taken from the forums. As is discussed on another thread on these forums, that sample favors the people who--not to sound snobby, as this description only half applies to me--understand and want to be a part of the design process. The sort of people who decide to play a reformed drow with an albino panther or whatever aren't the sort of people who take part in those polls.
Not sure that's true. Participating the forums doesn't really say anything about the wisdom / understanding of game design of the poster.
Without actual data gathered about this topic, all conjecture about the behavior of theoretical players is simply that. Guesses. We don't know what the outcome would be, and we certainly don't have enough information to tell us what people actually do want or intend to do in-game.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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That's not the only way.You're right. I try to avoid using absolutes, and this reminds me why.
I think it makes a lot of sense to let the players fund the development of additional races. I'd love to see them have something like an open-ended Kickstarter, where the development work would proceed once the appropriate funding level was met. I think charging for access to those races after they've been developed is perfectly reasonable as well.
Interesting concept; how much would you estimate the work required for a new race would be?
Fermi estimate: Assuming high-quality experienced artists at every stage, not trying to do anything revolutionary, plus a negligible fracion of a manager:
1 week (3 man-weeks) to develop all of the concept art; 1/3 week (1 man-week) to develop each basic mesh, then 1/3 day (1 man-day) for each animation with each existing equipment mesh, making sure that it exists and doesn't clip too badly.
Figure each archetype has 5 distinctly different animations, plus twenty emotive animations, each of which has to work with 6 different armor meshes and 10 different weapon meshes. (They have to test all of these combinations because there WILL be someone who notices and complains that a troll wizard casting fireball in sexy heavy armor with a double-ax cuts his arm off if they don't.)
(11*5+20)*6*10+15+20=5000 man-days spent on the project. Figure the quality of artist specified costs $40/hour for 8-hour days, and the total cost of developing the art for a new race is on the order of $200,000.
Checking the stretch goals from the KS, a race was added at $60,000 over the funding goal, in addition to hiring Chris Pramas for the Emerald Spire at +$50k. Guess $14k for the cost of of Chris, $6k for the overhead of the KS, and Gnomes were estimated to cost about $40k to develop.
I don't think that there's a price point for a new race that would allow the development costs to be met only by the MTX selling the race.
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Our best evidence is what's been seen in other games. I've got none of that--my only MMO experience is with Runescape. Just from what I generally see in tabletop games, though, I've learned to be wary about allowing monsters as PCs in Golarion.
Here's a known fact: Look for Good, Lawful or even Neutral goblins in all of Pathfinder's books and modules. Look for Good kobolds or orcs.
Sure, there might be one or two. One or two.
That number grows in an MMO way more than it should. Golarion is not a setting for monstrous heroes. Period.
Our best evidence is what's been seen in other games. I've got none of that--my only MMO experience is with Runescape. Just from what I generally see in tabletop games, though, I've learned to be wary about allowing monsters as PCs in Golarion.
Limited sample group. Play with better people.
Here's a known fact: Look for Good, Lawful or even Neutral goblins in all of Pathfinder's books and modules. Look for Good kobolds or orcs.
Sure, there might be one or two. One or two.
That number grows in an MMO way more than it should.
And what would be wrong with that? Let people play how they like.
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"Better people".
I'm among those "less better people". You can tell by my avatar. I like monster races, and I have played them in Pathfinder. The reason it's okay in the tabletop is that there are only around four players--not thousands.
If we followed the rule of "let them play what they like", this would be a pretty horrible game. We have to follow the rules of Golarion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If part of the issue with unusual races is character power differential, then we really need to consider races with a CR equal to or lower than the core races (goblins, kobolds) differently than those with CRs higher than the core races (vampires, were-creatures).
When SWG was new, as mentioned above, Jedi were very difficult to unlock, and that made them extremely rare. Later, though, the difficult unlocking process was removed, and anyone could make a Jedi. Suddenly, the streets were thronged with Jedi.
Partly, that was due to novelty (I couldn't finish the unlock before, but I'll make one now because it's easy). Partly, it was due to power (Now I can tell guards I'm not the guy they're looking for). Lastly, they were popular because they're one of the signature character types of the Star Wars universe (I can make a scout-type or a soldier in another MMO, but I can only make a Jedi in this one).
It all depends on whether GW wants non-core race characters to be rare as PCs. If they want the majority of the player base to stick with the core races, then they need some sort of limiting mechanism. If they don't care about the relative proportion of goblins to halflings to humans, then no limit is needed. If they don't care about the number of equal/lesser CR races, but they want to limit the number of players of high-CR races, then they only need limiting mechanisms on the high-CR races.
Ultimately, it's GW's decision to make, not ours.
Figure each archetype has 5 distinctly different animations, plus twenty emotive animations, each of which has to work with 6 different armor meshes and 10 different weapon meshes. (They have to test all of these combinations because there WILL be someone who notices and complains that a troll wizard casting fireball in sexy heavy armor with a double-ax cuts his arm off if they don't.)
(11*5+20)*6*10+15+20=5000 man-days spent on the project. Figure the quality of artist specified costs $40/hour for 8-hour days, and the total cost of developing the art for a new race is on the order of $200,000.
100k players, $15 a month-ish... plenty of cash to get art done once subscribers start hitting the server.
I'm among those "less better people".
Are you? Why? I meant that better people have no problem with monstrous PCs and work to make the experience at the table good for everyone.
If we followed the rule of "let them play what they like", this would be a pretty horrible game. We have to follow the rules of Golarion.
Why? And PFO is not the Pathfinder RPG. They are separate products.
It's set in Golarion, so not very separate.
It's set in Golarion, so not very separate.
Forking happens all the time. Or, in the case WoW, for example, lore development can occur in any direction the owners/developers wish.
In the end: it's a game, and as a game, the enjoyment of the experience takes precedence over tradition or lore. The lore is there only to facilitate the experience.
If it's decided that more people can enjoy the game if the lore is tweaked -- the lore should, by all means, be tweaked!
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I would vastly prefer we keep to the setting style. That's my final word on this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's a question of acceptable breaks from the tabletop world. Golarion is not a world of free, automatic resurrection, even for would-be heroes. We've (mostly) agreed to accept infinite resurrection for PCs as a concession to the MMO nature of this game.
That doesn't mean we have to accept infinite digression from the lore. Different people will have different tolerances for differences.
Goblin PCs may be too much for one person. The mini-map may be too much for another.
Heck, for that matter, some people would have trouble accepting things in PFO that exist in the official lore of the tabletop game. The River Kingdoms aren't that far south of a giant crashed alien spaceship, but some of us would probably howl at the inclusion of an android escalation. Guns and gunslingers are well-established in lore, but some of us will probably fight their inclusion in PFO.
Again, in the end the decisions on what to add, change, or overlook in the transition from tabletop to MMO are ultimately up to Goblinworks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's a question of acceptable breaks from the tabletop world. Golarion is not a world of free, automatic resurrection, even for would-be heroes. We've (mostly) agreed to accept infinite resurrection for PCs as a concession to the MMO nature of this game.
That doesn't mean we have to accept infinite digression from the lore. Different people will have different tolerances for differences.
Goblin PCs may be too much for one person. The mini-map may be too much for another.
Heck, for that matter, some people would have trouble accepting things in PFO that exist in the official lore of the tabletop game. The River Kingdoms aren't that far south of a giant crashed alien spaceship, but some of us would probably howl at the inclusion of an android escalation. Guns and gunslingers are well-established in lore, but some of us will probably fight their inclusion in PFO.
Again, in the end the decisions on what to add, change, or overlook in the transition from tabletop to MMO are ultimately up to Goblinworks.
Well said,
And I have to agree, since everyone has their own ideas of what should be included in the game.
Golarion was specifically designed as a "kitchen sink" setting. I do find it rather intensely amusing the notion that Golarion has a specific, distinct, narrow flavor or content. It was designed to allow and include everything and anything.
Objections about "that's not what goes on in my Golarion!" are just silly on the face of it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Golarion was specifically designed as a "kitchen sink" setting.
Revolutionary France with magic? Check. Conan the barbarian? Check. Thundarr the barbarian? Check. Samurai, ninjas, Crouching Tigers? Check. Arabian Nights? Check. Native American tribes? India? Not as well fleshed out, yet, but check and check. Barsoom (Mars)? Check. Pirates? Check. About the only fantasy setting I can think of that requires some forcing into Golarion is Ancient Greece/Rome.
Edit: I almost forgot two. Lovecraft? Check. Pokemon? Check.
Edit 2: On the other hand, city stats from the Book of the River Kingdoms:
Artume: humanoid (human 86%, gnome 7%, half-elf 4%, half-orc 2%, other 1%)
Novoboro: humanoid (human 98%, half-elf 2%)
Daggermark: humanoid (human 96%, dwarf 1%, other 3%)
Gralton: humanoid (human 90%, halfling 7%, half-elf 2%, other 1%)
Maashinelle: humanoid (human 75%, half-elf 11%, gnome 8%, elf 5%, other 1%)
Fort Liberthane: humanoid (human 95%, halfling 4%, other 1%)
Mivon: humanoid (human 86%, dwarf 6%, elf 6%, gnome 2%)
Outsea: humanoid and monstrous (merfolk 34%, sahuagin 36%, human 20%, elf 5%, other 5%)
Pitax: humanoid (human 90%, halfling 4%, elf 3%, other 3%)
Deadbridge: humanoid (human 90%, halfling 6%, gnome 2%, elf 1%, other 1%)
Riverton: humanoid (human 88%, half-elf 9%, other 3%)
Sevenarches: humanoid (human 88%, fey 5%, gnome 4%, halfling 2%, other 1%)
Avendale: humanoid (human 89%, halfling 9%, other 2%)
Tymon: humanoid (human 80%, half-orc 12%, other 8%)
Uringen: Part A: humanoid (human 85%, half-elf 9%, gnome 5%, other 1%)
Uringen: Part B: humanoid (human 85%, half-elf 12%, gnome 2%, other 1%)
And from Thornkeep:
Thornkeep: (484 humans, 42 half-elves, 27 halflings, 19 goblins, 12 elves, 11 half-orcs, 8 gnomes, 7 dwarves, 20 other)
Edit 2: On the other hand, city stats from the Book of the River Kingdoms:
Artume: humanoid (human 86%, gnome 7%, half-elf 4%, half-orc 2%, other 1%)
Novoboro: humanoid (human 98%, half-elf 2%)
Daggermark: humanoid (human 96%, dwarf 1%, other 3%)
Gralton: humanoid (human 90%, halfling 7%, half-elf 2%, other 1%)
Maashinelle: humanoid (human 75%, half-elf 11%, gnome 8%, elf 5%, other 1%)
Fort Liberthane: humanoid (human 95%, halfling 4%, other 1%)
Mivon: humanoid (human 86%, dwarf 6%, elf 6%, gnome 2%)
Outsea: humanoid and monstrous (merfolk 34%, sahuagin 36%, human 20%, elf 5%, other 5%)
Pitax: humanoid (human 90%, halfling 4%, elf 3%, other 3%)
Deadbridge: humanoid (human 90%, halfling 6%, gnome 2%, elf 1%, other 1%)
Riverton: humanoid (human 88%, half-elf 9%, other 3%)
Sevenarches: humanoid (human 88%, fey 5%, gnome 4%, halfling 2%, other 1%)
Avendale: humanoid (human 89%, halfling 9%, other 2%)
Tymon: humanoid (human 80%, half-orc 12%, other 8%)
Uringen: Part A: humanoid (human 85%, half-elf 9%, gnome 5%, other 1%)
Uringen: Part B: humanoid (human 85%, half-elf 12%, gnome 2%, other 1%)
And from Thornkeep:
Thornkeep: (484 humans, 42 half-elves, 27 halflings, 19 goblins, 12 elves, 11 half-orcs, 8 gnomes, 7 dwarves, 20 other)
You can't have heroic / special PCs without making them special somehow. Demographics of NPCs, by definition, isn't relevant to the player characters, in terms of what characters players can or should create.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You can't have heroic / special PCs without making them special somehow. Demographics of NPCs, by definition, isn't relevant to the player characters, in terms of what characters players can or should create.
Also a valid point. Add up all the PCs in PFO, and we'll probably still be a fairly small percentage of the total population of the River Kingdoms.
One more point: Advanced Race Guide contains stats for making characters with PC class levels from over 30 additional races (beyond the 7 core races). It also contains a system for comparing races (Race Points) that's more granular than comparing the CR of an average NPC from each race. Paizo didn't print that book just for GMs to make NPCs.