Hey, building a dragon disciple and could you some more help. Or if nothing else a sounding board.
Okay, so the concept is a Dragon Killing Dragon Disciple, who uses Dragon Style. Basically someone with a fight fire with fire attitude about dragons. Now I've consulted the guides and... am terribly torn about which martial classes to go.
I initially wanted them to go sort of... Fighter/Barbarian-y; but then I realized that to get Stunning Fist, a prerequisite for Dragon Style. So I went back to the board and caved in for a MoMS dip. But I also decided on a Ranger Dip for the Favored Enemy bonus(To get in that Dragon Killer feel).
The problem is, I feel like I've spread myself too thin. Monks get a lot of cool stuff at level 4 which I think I'm missing out on. On the other hand Ranger feels like a class I should dip in harder for the Aspect of the Beast for permanent claws. Not to mention my casting feels week as a DD because I've gone so Martial Heavy. To top if off, my BAB feels weak since I'm pulling in at 1/2 BAB @ Level 5.
Right now I'm at: Sorceror 1/Ranger 1/MoMS 3/Dragon Disciple(DD) 7
Feat wise though(aspect of the Beast aside) am in what I'd consider a good place but am still open to suggestion.
H Sorcerous Bloodstrike
1 Weapon Focus(Claws)
M1 Dragon Style
3 Feral Combat Training
M2 Dragon Ferocity
5 Elemental Fist
7 Weapon Focus(Bite)
9 Dragon Roar
11 Weapon Focus(Wings)
DD2 Blind Fight
DD5 Improved Initiative
So with all that in mind... What suggestions do you guys have for smoothing out this character? A different level split than the above? Another way to get Stunning Fist? I'm all ears.
How about a single level of Unarmed Fighter for Dragon Style, a single level of Sorcerer, and then either Barb or Unarmed Fighter up to level 5 when you can enter DD?
So it'd be something like this:
Sorcerer 1/Unarmed Fighter X
1 (Fighter 1): Dragon Style, Weapon Focus (Claws)
3 (Fighter 2): Feral Combat Training, Dragon Ferocity
5 (Fighter 4): Weapon Focus (Bite), Elemental Fist
7 (DD 2): Improved Initiative
Or something like that anyway. I THINK taking Dragon Ferocity once you have Dragon Style is legal.
If not, maybe Sorcerer 1/MoMS 1/Unarmed Fighter 3/DD 6 with this arrangement:
1 (Fighter 1): Dragon Style, Weapon Focus (Claws)
2 (MoMS 1): Elemental Fist
3 (Sorcerer 1): Feral Combat Training
4 (Fighter 2): Weapon Focus (Bite)
5 (Fighter 3): Dragon Ferocity
7 (DD 2): Improved Initiative
9 (DD 4): Weapon Focus (Wings)
11 (DD 6): Whatevah (Blind Fight, in your case)
You end up at +8 BaB (right on 3/4 BaB) still, but you're less spread out and still have a +3 BaB at 5 (again, right on 3/4 progression), and have all the necessary Feats. Trust me when I say Dragon Roar is something you'll rarely need.
I don't think he really NEEDS Feral Combat Training to apply to more than one attack. He just needs it so he can use Claw to deliver Stunning Fist I believe.
Actually, looking at it, does he need Dragon Style/Ferocity at all?
I thought all of his attacks were Primary, so therefore he would already add full Str to attack. The extra 1/2 Str is nice, but if he were, say, a Fighter (Weapon Master?) 4/Sorcerer 1/DD 7 it'd probably be better overall, now I think of it.
Until he hits Str 26, Weapon Specialization's +4 would be better than 1.5x Str, so he's not really losing any damage either.
How about a single level of Unarmed Fighter for Dragon Style, a single level of Sorcerer, and then either Barb or Unarmed Fighter up to level 5 when you can enter DD?
So it'd be something like this:
Sorcerer 1/Unarmed Fighter X
1 (Fighter 1): Dragon Style, Weapon Focus (Claws)
3 (Fighter 2): Feral Combat Training, Dragon Ferocity
5 (Fighter 4): Weapon Focus (Bite), Elemental Fist
7 (DD 2): Improved InitiativeOr something like that anyway. I THINK taking Dragon Ferocity once you have Dragon Style is legal.
That wouldn't be legal cause Ferocity still has Stunning Fist as a prerequisite. Though it's weird cause Unarmed Fighter's 1st bonus feat sounds like you can just pick up other feats too(the whole elemental fist bit would be impossible at 1st level).
You end up at +8 BaB (right on 3/4 BaB) still, but you're less spread out and still have a +3 BaB at 5 (again, right on 3/4 progression), and have all the necessary Feats. Trust me when I say Dragon Roar is something you'll rarely need.
I do like to use Dragon Roar since it lets me switch up saves. If I'm fighting guys with good Fort Saves(Which is most everyone) I can switch it up. Plus it reeks of flavor.
I think I may go with that spread though.
Feral Combat Training only effects one attack type. If you want it on everything you need 4 levels of human fighter and martial versatility.
What, since when? If that's the case, then I'd have to pick up 2 of those puppies if I go the fighter route.
In any case I don't think you can afford to indulge in the ranger level.
I do believe you're correct.
Thanks guys. Gonna work on a revised build in the morning.
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Personally id minimize the stats needed as best as possible. Id go Oracle (Nature/Legalistic) 1/ Paladin 2/ Ranger (Natural Attacks) 2/ Monk (MoMs) 2/ Dragon Disciple rest of the way with Angel-Blooded Aasimar as the race for a +2 str and cha.The revelation from Oracle's Nature mystery being Nature’s Whispers to use cha instead of dex for calculating CMD and AC. Pick up the Noble Scion: Scion of War feat to use cha instead of dex for initiative. With that stated u will be using ur Cha for ac, cmd, init, and adding it to all saves.
Okay, lets take another crack at it:
First imo I DO need Dragon Style & Dragon Ferocity. Aside from allowing me to use my Stunning Fists and so on; It'll effectively add 2 times my STR to my first Natural Attack in a round and add 50% to my others. It really makes the STR bonus a value for the build. When combined to Dragon's Bite & Form of Dragon, I'll do 2 times Strength Damage on 2 different attacks with a pretty respectable strength bonus.
And on that account, then a Monk dip can't be avoided. I have to pick up a level of monk for Stunning Fist if I want to see Dragon Ferocity before I'm ancient.
So, I think I'm gonna build as follows(raising my level even):
Sorc 1 > MoMS 1 > Unarmed Fighter 4 > Dragon Disciple 7
Feat Wise:
H Sorcerous Bloodstrike
1 Weapon Focus(Claws)
M1 Dragon Style
F1 ???
3 Feral Combat Training
F2 ???
5 Dragon Ferocity
F4 Elemental Fist
7 Martial Versatility(Feral Combat Training)
9 Dragon Roar
11 Martial Versatility(Weapon Focus)
13 Weapon Specialization(Claws)
DD2 Blind Fight
DD5 Improved Initiative
Only problem is I don't know what feat to pick up as my first Fighter feat. If I go Unarmed fighter, I get stuck with having to chose a Style feat... which I suppose I can combine another one with it but I don't know if I want to. If I just went vanilla fighter I could grab one of the next. And as for my 2nd Fighter feat... I just don't know what to pick next. Arcane Strike or something I suppose?
If you take your first level of unarmed fighter before MoMS, pick up dragon style. Then you take a level in MoMS, and pick up dragon ferocity at third level.
Tell me again how you're gaining claws on this build. Sorcerer gives you 5-7 rounds of claw use. Unless I missed something.
That's it, well that and Form of the Dragon. Considering most combats don't last longer than a minute, it'll do. And if nothing else I can Unarmed Strike.
Initially though I was going to dip Ranger for Aspect of the Beast but as everyone concurred it wasn't worth the dip. Though I may take Alter self just to pick a humanoid that gives claws & so on.
If you take your first level of unarmed fighter before MoMS, pick up dragon style. Then you take a level in MoMS, and pick up dragon ferocity at third level.
Shiny. That'll work since the First Fighter one will bypass the requirement. Thanks sir.
The specialization should go in unarmed strike so it'll cascade over martial versatility to all your natural attacks. You'll also have a bite and that's the level you get Form of the Dragon I as a daily SLA so you'll have wings as well.
Though, wouldn't that mean Feral Combat training wouldn't work since it requires me to have a weapon focus on a Natural Attack? Or at the least, it'll delay it till I'm post level 9(since I need level 4 fighter for versatility).
F4 Martial Versatility(Weapon Focus(Unarmed))
7 Feral Combat Training(Claws)
9 Martial Versatility(Feral Combat Training(Claws))
I think I'd rather get Feral Combat training earlier in the build to use the stance with the claws. So as it stands:
Sorc 1 > Unarmed Fighter 1 > MoMS 1 > Unarmed Fighter 3 > Dragon Disciple 7
Feat Wise:
H Sorcerous Bloodstrike
1 Weapon Focus(Claws)
F1 Dragon Style
M1 Dragon Ferocity
3 Feral Combat Training
F2 Elemental Fist
5 ???
F4 Martial Versatility(Weapon Focus)
7 Martial Versatility(Feral Combat Training)
9 Dragon Roar
11 ???
13 Weapon Specialization(Claws)
DD2 Blind Fight
DD5 Improved Initiative
Still have 2 open feats though.
On the subject of those feats, should I take skill focus and dip into abyssal for more claws? Doesn't really work for flavor; but then again I have 2 feats and the CHA for it... Plus that'd be more claws per day.
Edit:
I'd suggest either toughness, arcane strike, or improved initiaitve. Also since you have decent monk abilities I'd pick up sor bloodstrike later or not at all because the character you're describing is martial as all hell so he wont be killing much with his spells.
Well, I am taking Improved initiative and was thinking Arcane Strike might be worthwhile. Is Toughness really that good though? I mean, more HP is always nice but it's only 1 per level...
But oh man, I didn't even notice Sorcerous Bloodstrike only worked with spells. Reading fail on my part. Yeah, it's definitely going on the backburner then.
Do you qualify for weapon focus at first level?
The workaround for Sorcerous Bloodstrike is to use a spell to augment your damage with your claws such as Elemental Touch.
Also, you can get claws with Alter Self way before you get Dragon Form, which is a second level spell (4th level DD by the looks of your build). The Troglodyte form gains you two claws and a bite attack, which will work perfectly with what you are going for. Many people reflavor the Trog to be kind of like a dragon man, which works for the concept.
If you don't use a claw, you still get a pretty sweet Unarmed Strike. I'd recommend doing it whenever you cannot full attack.
All successive Style feats are in the Style Feats section in the PRD and in the Ultimate Combat Book. It seems pretty lame to me that they aren't considered Style feats just because they don't have the style descriptor in parenthesis. Talk to your GM about it, and you might be able to stick to your concept without going monk.
Also, Martial Versatility doesn't say that you need to meet the prerequisites of a feat in order to apply it to all weapons in that group. If you picked Weapon Specialization, you don't have to first take Martial Versatility for Weapon Focus. It isn't required in the feat, so you don't need to suck up 2 extra feats to do what you want. You then can just take it once for Feral Combat Training and apply it to all your natural weapons.
This is my build, that I have used in a PBP with the consent of a reasonable GM. I started with a level of Sorcerer and went 4 levels of Unarmed Fighter after that.
Human- Skill Focus: Knowledge Planes
1- Toughness
2- Bonus- Improved Unarmed Strike
Bonus- Dragon Ferocity
3- Eldrich Heritage: Abyssal- Claws
Bonus- Dragon Style
5- Weapon Focus Claw
Bonus- Feral Combat Training
After this was the plan to go into 4 levels of DD and then another level of UF for Weapon Training in Natural Weapon as soon as you can afford Gloves of Dueling for a static +3 to all attacks, hit and damage. It's way better to do it this way than to dip ranger even, because it makes you better against everything (even dragons). At level 7 pick up Martial Versatility because then you finally get a bite attack when you use your claws. By level 9, you should be able to do it all day long with your Alter Self Spell (which also gives you a size bonus to strength).
All sage advice. However, lets see if we can make this rules friendlier(since I'm not sure Martial Versatility(Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike_) actually applies for Feral Combat Training.
Unarmed Fighter 1 > Sorceror 1 > Unarmed Fighter 2 > MoMS 1 > Unarmed Fighter 1 > DD7
1 ???
H ???
F1 Dragon Style
3 Weapon Focus(Claws)
F2 Feral Combat Training
M1 Dragon Ferocity
5 Elemental Fist
F4 Martial Versatility(Weapon Focus)
7 Martial Versaility(Feral Combat Training)
9 Dragon Roar
DD2 Improved Initiative
11 Arcane Strike
DD5 Blind Fight
13 Weapon Specialization(Claws)
Still have 2 lower level feats to fill, but I'm close I think. Thinking I'll go Green Dragon, since Oterisk's guide suggest it's a good one, and I'll be lawful anyways.
Now as for spells, I think I'm effectively a 6th Level Sorceror so I'll know 7 0 levels, 4 1st levels, 2 2nd levels, 1 and 1 3rd level. What should they be? Best I can figure:
0s- Acid Splash
1st- ???
2nd- Alter Self
3rd- ???
Again, you don't need to worry about prerequisites for feats chosen by Martial Versatility. The feat doesn't say you do. Anyone who inserts this does so because they do not understand that rule. If I wanted to take Martial Versatility: Weapon Specialization without doing it for Weapon Focus, I really could do that without issue.
If you haven't looked into skills, a DD is really good at intimidating. Picking up Intimidating Prowess, Power Attack and Cornugun Smash is a decent combo. Also, Elemental Spell for use with your Corrosive Touch isn't a bad idea so you aren't stuck when you find a creature immune to acid.
As for spells, don't forget that by that point you get Mage Armor, Resist Energy and Fly as bonus known spells. Also don't forget your Acid descriptor spells for flavor and because you gain a +1 to damage for them. Don't go for Acid arrow unless you have a decent Dex, as it really sucks to miss with it. It is, however a decent ranged spell.
Corrosive Touch (Lvl 1)
Acid Arrow (Lvl 2)
Elemental Touch (Lvl 2)
Draconic Reservoir (Lvl 3)
Elemental Aura (Lvl 3)
Corrosive Touch can be cast and the charge can be held (look up those rules) pretty much indefinitely, so you can actually cast it out of combat and have a good first hit. Elemental Aura is probably superior to Draconic Reservoir in power (especially since you gain Resist Energy for free, but it's kinda an icky spell. It's level 3, so you have to choose.
Again, you don't need to worry about prerequisites for feats chosen by Martial Versatility. The feat doesn't say you do. Anyone who inserts this does so because they do not understand that rule. If I wanted to take Martial Versatility: Weapon Specialization without doing it for Weapon Focus, I really could do that without issue.
It's not that which I'm concerned with, it's Feral Combat Training itself that I'm worried about. I just did a search, and RAI is that it doesn't provide you with the feat for prerequisite.
With the caveat, as always, that I don't provide official errata but only unofficial authorial clarification (and agreeing with several posters upthread who note that things sometimes, even often, DO get changed for all kinds of reasons between turnover and publication), my opinion on RD's questions would be as follows:
Does Martial Versatility/Mastery help me qualify for things?Only things that require MV/MM as a prerequisite.
No. You don't have the feat WF (longsword). You are able to apply the benefit of the feat you DO have (WF (greatsword)) to all weapons in the same group, which includes longsword. While the mechanical benefits are identical to having WF (longsword), you still don't have the actual feat.
Say there is a prestige class that requires Weapon Focus (longsword). I have Weapon Focus (greatsword) and Martial Versatility (weapon focus).
If you haven't looked into skills, a DD is really good at intimidating. Picking up Intimidating Prowess, Power Attack and Cornugun Smash is a decent combo. Also, Elemental Spell for use with your Corrosive Touch isn't a bad idea so you aren't stuck when you find a creature immune to acid.
As for spells, don't forget that by that point you get Mage Armor, Resist Energy and Fly as bonus known spells. Also don't forget your Acid descriptor spells for flavor and because you gain a +1 to damage for them. Don't go for Acid arrow unless you have a decent Dex, as it really sucks to miss with it. It is, however a decent ranged spell.
Corrosive Touch (Lvl 1)
Acid Arrow (Lvl 2)
Elemental Touch (Lvl 2)
Draconic Reservoir (Lvl 3)
Elemental Aura (Lvl 3)Corrosive Touch can be cast and the charge can be held (look up those rules) pretty much indefinitely, so you can actually cast it out of combat and have a good first hit. Elemental Aura is probably superior to Draconic Reservoir in power (especially since you gain Resist Energy for free, but it's kinda an icky spell. It's level 3, so you have to choose.
Thanks for the tips here though, It's appreciated :D I completely forgot about my bloodline spells.