Item Creation Feats - Caster Level Prerequisites - Non Magic Classes?

[Baron_Yves]

I am in search of some RAW explanation of how I reconcile the following situation:

Can a Gnome Fighter-3 still gain access to Item creation feats that require a caster level? The argument is the racial spell like abilities grant a caster level equal to the gnome's class level, which in this case would be 3rd level.

As far as I understood, when legitimately creating a magic item, the use of spell like abilities can be used as a source for magic, so long as they can reproduce the spell needed. If that's true, it would seem reasonable that they could also fill the requisite caster level needed for the feat.

I'm interested in people's thoughts on this, and any hard rules I can go to.

[VRMH]

You are aware of the Master Craftsman feat?

[master_marshmallow]

The SLA itself had a caster level, but you yourself do not, unless you take a class that grants a caster level or otherwise find a way to bypass that prerequisite. Master Craftsman qualifies.

[Aratrok]

I think it's kind've a gray area in the rules because there's little distinction between what an "effective caster level" and a "real caster level" are.

In my opinion there's no reason not to allow it. It's not really game breaking, it makes a certain sort of sense, and mundane classes need some love too. They'll be pretty limited in what they can make as well, due to a lack of Spellcraft as a class skill and being unable to provide spell prerequisites without a casting class to help them out.

[Avh]

@Master marshmallow : +1.

EDIT :

Let me develop : To create a magic item, you need one of either : be a spellcaster of X caster level, or have the feat "Master Craftsman".

A spell-like ability does not give a character a caster level : the caster level is for the spell like ability itself.

It is similar to the fact of having a +4 weapon : it has a caster level of 12. Does it allow the fighter using a +4 weapon to take Magic Item creation feats ? Of course not !

A magic item cannot be created by spell-like abilities, by the way.

PRD Paizo wrote:

Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

[Baron_Yves]

master_marshmallow wrote:

The SLA itself had a caster level, but you yourself do not, unless you take a class that grants a caster level or otherwise find a way to bypass that prerequisite. Master Craftsman qualifies.

This is an interesting take on caster level, master_marshmallow. From what I can find, no character has a caster level. Not a Wizard, Sorcerer or Cleric. The spells and abilities do, however.

RAW from PFSRD

Quote:

Caster Level

A spell's power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she's using to cast the spell.

Based on this definition from the Magic section, Caster Level is not a character trait at all but simply a measure of a spell's power. That power level is derived from class levels mostly, but not exclusively, and when specifically defined in the scope of a spell-like ability, I think it would qualify.

What do you think?

[Baron_Yves]

Avh wrote:

It is similar to the fact of having a +4 weapon : it has a caster level of 12. Does it allow the fighter using a +4 weapon to take Magic Item creation feats ? Of course not !

Magic Items with a CL listed are explicit in what that caster level is referring to.

Quote:

Caster Level (CL): The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item's saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation.

Avh wrote:

A magic item cannot be created by spell-like abilities, by the way.

PRD Paizo wrote:

Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

You are right. It seems that SLAs do not count as spells or have the ability to spell-trigger. Thanks for the clarification on this.

[Aratrok]

You don't actually need to meet spell prerequisites to make some magical items.

Magic Item Creation wrote:

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.

You can eschew prerequisites- including spell prerequisites- by adding 5 to the DC. You just can't do this for potions, scrolls, or wands. If you allow qualification for crafting feats through SLAs the crafter can still make other items by increasing the DC.

Alternatively they can gain access through an actual spellcaster providing the spell prerequisites, such as a fellow party member that is a wizard or cleric.

[master_marshmallow]

Taking the item creation feat itself requires your character to have a caster level, or some substitute.

The CL determined exclusively for the use of a SLA is not the same as a character's CL for the purpose of meeting the prerequisite for a MIC feat.

[Aratrok]

I'm not arguing that with you, master_marshmallow. I've stated that it's up to your interpretation, and even specifically included the line

Aratrok wrote:

If you allow qualification for crafting feats through SLAS

Don't try and start a fight. It's rude and un-necessary, this is a place for politely discussing Pathfinder.

[Baron_Yves]

master_marshmallow wrote:

Taking the item creation feat itself requires your character to have a caster level, or some substitute.

The CL determined exclusively for the use of a SLA is not the same as a character's CL for the purpose of meeting the prerequisite for a MIC feat.

Sorry to beat a dead horse here, but MM do you know of any place that "caster level" is defined as spellcasting class levels? I am fine with it being a RAI explanation, and I even get where you're coming from, but based on what I can find as written rule, caster level is a measure of spell power and not character experience.

That being the case, I can't see why SLAs would be excluded from Item Creation as they use the same casting level mechanic.

Thanks for your indulgence.

[Avh]

WARNING : there will be irony in this post. Do not take it personaly.

PRD Paizo wrote:

Master Craftsman

Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.
Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats

A spellcaster is very well defined by pathfinder rules : it is someone who casts spells (no kidding) !

Spell-like abilities does not make a character a spellcaster.

[Baron_Yves]

Avh wrote:

Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats

A spellcaster is very well defined by pathfinder rules : it is someone who casts spells (no kidding) !

Spell-like abilities does not make a character a spellcaster.

I dig it. This is something tangible I can get behind. Thank you for the RAW reference.

[Avh]

You're welcome ^^

[shallowsoul]

master_marshmallow wrote:

Taking the item creation feat itself requires your character to have a caster level, or some substitute.

The CL determined exclusively for the use of a SLA is not the same as a character's CL for the purpose of meeting the prerequisite for a MIC feat.

Citation?

[shallowsoul]

All you need is a caster level.