Goblin Squad Member
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In researching past threads before starting this one, there have been discussions about character names, achievement titles, merit badge titles, etc. However, I didn't see anything about what we as a community think should be visible or not visible. There was a fairly recent thread with a suggestion for a mechanism to make character names invisible until you somehow established relations with that person, which I think is still a good idea, but likely causes too many possible problems to be worth implementing.
What I'm asking here is what do you think should be visible? Names, the CC you belong to, the settlement? We're all used to guild tags floating over our head, but in a world of open PvP, with competing settlements, I'm not sure I want everyone to be able to see which group or which settlement I belong to. Others will want to wear it proudly, like a guild tabard. Even guild titles and ranks might be viewed as reasonably visible from a role-play standpoint (insignia, medals on your chest, etc.).
So perhaps more than asking what can be visible, the question is, what "must" be visible? Should you have to "wear" your CC's name? As a role-player, I don't let my character know anything that he hasn't learned in-character, including your name/guild/etc., even if it's floating over your head. However, that's not going to be the case with all players, and there are some real benefits to not displaying all your associations.
Personally, I'd like to have the option to toggle all that stuff off, but others will likely have a strong opinion to the contrary. Opinions?
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Goblin Squad Member
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None, only those who you have made your friends, and guild members, and notable individuals whom you do business with. That 3 lists to check if name is to be displayed. Also have option toggle displaying of listed names. I really hate having name stuck on characters in games. I normal pickup my friends from IC/OOC conversations, or if a huge crowd, quickly toggle names on, to spot then switch off.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would imagine that showing CCs and Settlements by default would severely impair if not completely ruin the dynamics of espionage. Personally, I hope to have my alt be a politician and I think that the role would be a lot less interesting without the possibility of my trusted advisors or whatnot being spies.
I like DarkOne's suggestion, but how would you know who is important without giving away high-ranking spies?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I want nothing floating over my head other than "PC Insert racial group", until someone actually interacts with me. Then they and their contacts can have knowledge of me, just for what information our interaction revealed.
Example: ( in order of what I would reveal)
1. Name
2. Alignment
3. Settlement
4. Charter Company
I would suspect that we will not have a choice about our Reputation score, since the mechanics of be game uses that for access. But, this may not have to be a floatie anyway?
Bottom line, I'm a big fan of forcing players to interact socially. But, if you refuse to reveal details, you can opt out and remain "PC + Racial Group".
I also recognize that Clerics and Paladins may have Identify Alignment spells, and Magic Users may have polls that can also extract this information without your knowledge as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think this is a good discussion. I don't like all that floaty words either. Seems a system that works with the flag system eg "enemy", "neutral", "friend" and how that info is displayed when it's needed.
Any additional info, it would be good if there is requirement for steps to be taken to acquire it - ie useful social info you can gather and accumulate. Some skill or other in this and espionage would be cool. Is there a pathfinder precedent for this? Eg detect alignment?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmm... For the sake of Player preference, privacy, clutter, and convenience I would like to see:
1. Ability to see character names should be an option that the viewer can toggle on-off.
2. What the viewer sees should be the character's name or character's current alias (character's choice and character can toggle between name or any alias).
3. Viewer should also see (perhaps through color or something) if the character is the viewer's target for bounty or assasination, enemy list, trespasser, and of course flags. Not an option that character can refuse to display.
4. Each player should have the option whether to display any titles and affiliations. Relative rep lvl, aligniment, etc. should be on the character portrait (click on character to see) if character wants them visible.
5. Character portrait can be a closer view of character "Doll" for a look at armor, clothing, bling, etc. but not "stats" of items.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do I remember that EVE has nothing at all above anyone's ship? Since so much else here has EVE-roots, maybe we can start there...
Yes, but when you click on a ship it will tell you Character Name, Ship Type and Corporation.
Then you can click on the Character portrait and look up employment history, and standings.
You can also look up all of the base model ship stats, from the ship info window.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The post from the I Shot A Man In Reno... blog suggests names at the least will be visible.
Long-term PvP flags will be activated through UI on the character window.
They put an icon next to the character's name that denotes they are PvP active and what flag they have.
Which is a decision I support. But other than Names and Flags, I don't think anything else really should. An argument could be made for a self-selected title.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having names not visible seems a very tricky mechanic. You could have a system where you click the "Greet" button, which brings up a target reticle, allowing you to target the person you want to all to see your name. Hopefully you're doing this while also conversing with them. I'm hoping the server could remember who does and who doesn't know your name. I've been in plenty of games where the server seems to recall if I've finished part of a quest and should or should not be able to see something that was revealed by a specific action in that quests. Perhaps the same process could be used with uniquely named characters.
The downside of this is not being able to know the name of someone who is misbehaving. Could we have something where if you attack someone without the proper flag, your name becomes visible to your victim? Now the victim has that name for a bounty, an assassin, or it you were being a real yahoo, a GM report. I leave it to those with a better mind for finding all the ways this could be exploited to find fault with it. That's a genuine invitation, not sarcasm.
On another topic, I'm not sure how I feel about long term PvP flags being visible. Sure, it helps people know who is willing to PvP, but on the flip side, I don't know if bandits and assassins want people to be able to tell their profession simply by looking at them. For that matter, I'm not sure I would want a traveler flag flying visibly...for the slight increase to movement and carrying capacity, it seems like an awful big target painted on your back.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On another topic, I'm not sure how I feel about long term PvP flags being visible. Sure, it helps people know who is willing to PvP, but on the flip side, I don't know if bandits and assassins want people to be able to tell their profession simply by looking at them. For that matter, I'm not sure I would want a traveler flag flying visibly...for the slight increase to movement and carrying capacity, it seems like an awful big target painted on your back.
That's part of the tradeoff for the perks you get for the PVP flag. You are publicly advertising that you are seeking PVP conflict. Otherwise how will anyone else know there aren't consequences for attacking you without attacking everyone at random?
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Goblin Squad Member
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None, only those who you have made your friends, and guild members, and notable individuals whom you do business with. That 3 lists to check if name is to be displayed. Also have option toggle displaying of listed names. I really hate having name stuck on characters in games. I normal pickup my friends from IC/OOC conversations, or if a huge crowd, quickly toggle names on, to spot then switch off.
Initially none, I agree, except for those with flags like attacker, etc..
However as a character gains renown or notoriety then that should probably be reflected in the visibility of their information. If DarkOne is exceedingly famous everyone should recognize him as THE DarkOne.
Or so I am thinking.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How much information should the client software have? Ryan has indicated in the past that hackers will write code to revel anything the server sends the client. Presuming this will be true, how much information would you want the PFO client to have without special server request? This may be an an unanswerable question at this stage, but I believe it needs some consideration.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I'm going to just point out that storing just one bit of information about every combination of two players (here "Does player A know player B's name?") expands exponentially; with 4500 players, there's ~2.5 MB just of 'do I know your name?"; with 100k characters, that goes up to ~1.1 GB of fully-optimized storage which needs to be accessed every time two characters encounter each other (you can play around with local caches, but you still need to access the global DB every time a character enters the area covered by a given local cache)
Storing the information on the client's system leads to the case where there is a significant advantage for players to figure out how to share that knowledge, and punishes players who play from more than one system or who use gaming cafes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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DeciusBrutus,
As I've said many times before, I'm not a techno-guy, so if that's how it would have to work...and that sounds bad...then thank you for pointing out the downsides that I don't have the technical know-how to consider. I'm not married to most of what I post. They're just ideas.
Hmm, names should be there, IMHO. Other stuff should be optional, per the player's desire.
A simple box where we can check and uncheck what information we want other players to be able to have access to would fix a lot of this.
Or for chartered companies, perhaps if there's something similar to a 'guild tabard' that could make certain info available? Maybe something similar to this for other things as well?
Alignment, the settlement you belong to and so one should have to be gotten through roleplay or at least reputation should play a role.
Drizz't Do'Urden isn't exactly anonymous anywhere he goes. In most fiction, big name heroes and champions are instantly recognized anyplace they regularly frequent.
I admit to having mixed feelings about this subject. My rambling back and forth probably gives that away, though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can have no names and stuff visible above the heads, by having an incredibly simple pop-up inspection window when you select target by clicking on the target, and selecting inspect. In this window, all sorts of information can be displayed, such as the PvP flag, your name automatically if you exceed a certain level of reputation, general character description, etc. This can also be used for the NPCs too. By using this simple pop-up window, one removes the horrible looking clutter from the view, making the game more enjoyable, while still having access to the needed information.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@DarkOne, I agree. I think that characters need to work for their information and game interaction. But as Ryan would probably point out, players want to have fun, not work. There will eventually be a balance struck somewhere. Selecting a character and taking an action to open a window to find out information is preferable to me over floating bubbles. This isn't Lawrence Welk.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I strongly prefer no floating labels; I turn them off completely whenever possible, and certainly hope that a "display labels OFF" option is included, if there are floating labels at all. That said, I realize I'm probably in the minority with that stance, so in terms of what other people see about me, I'd much prefer "name only" as a default, with the remaining information gathered by interaction (whether with me or via conversations with others). More meaningful interactions, less information handed out by the UI.
On a tangential note, I've been lax about keeping up with the forums, despite backing the Kickstarter in December. Will we be having first names only, or first and last? Unique names?
I vote Nothing :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I vote name or alias, title if toggled on by the titled player, and PVP flags. Too many lines over each head can obscure your view during a battle, and become confusing. Maybe a simple color setting can help with identifying friends and foes. At war with you = red. Allied with you = green. Neutral or unknown = gray.
Aside from face to face interactions with floating chat bubbles, keep in mind that there will probably be a chat window. If multiple people are talking, they're not all on my friends list, and I'm following along in the chat window, I hope they won't all be labeled as "someone". "Someone said 'Shoot it!' Someone else said 'Aim for its head.'" Confusing.
At the end of the day, this is still an MMO, not a table top game. There will be some concessions to the medium that break immersion. RP around them all you want, ask for options to support your RP, but please don't ask GW to make the game unavoidably harder for those who want to play an MMO (and the programmers).
If you are PVP flagged as Traveling, and you're hauling valuable cargo, you'll want to avoid going alone. Hire NPC and/or PC guards, so you won't have to rely on a dedicated crafting character's vestigial combat skills in case of bandit or monster attack.
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Goblin Squad Member
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<in the distance you see Being wrenching his sombrero from his pate, throwing it upon the ground, and jumping up and down on it in an obvious fit of displeasure>
You should not see my name until there is reason for you to know it. When we have been introduced, as an example, or when I attack you with my oversized guitar overhand.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If multiple people are talking, they're not all on my friends list, and I'm following along in the chat window, I hope they won't all be labeled as "someone". "Someone said 'Shoot it!' Someone else said 'Aim for its head.'" Confusing.
Is it really that confusing when you're sitting in a restaurant and a bunch of people you don't know are having conversations all around you?
That other games have made you accustomed to knowing everyone's name even before you meet them is no reason to insist that PFO follow suit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If multiple people are talking, they're not all on my friends list, and I'm following along in the chat window, I hope they won't all be labeled as "someone". "Someone said 'Shoot it!' Someone else said 'Aim for its head.'" Confusing.Is it really that confusing when you're sitting in a restaurant and a bunch of people you don't know are having conversations all around you?
That other games have made you accustomed to knowing everyone's name even before you meet them is no reason to insist that PFO follow suit.
No, but in a restaurant I have tools like positional hearing, and visual indicators like their mouth making the words I'm hearing. Also, people have different voices.
"You don't have this tool IRL, so you obviously don't need it" overlooks the other tools you have IRL that you don't have in a game that make up for it. Also, if it were actually possible for me to have this tool IRL, I would absolutely use it there too. Just wait for AR to get up to speed.
The Forced Anonymity argument is just like the Forced POV argument in another thread. "I want to play this way. I want to make everyone else play this way too." If floating names are messing it up for you, you should have the option to tell your client to stop displaying them. There's no reason to take a perfectly valid tool away from everyone to force them to RP the way you want. If someone comes up and addresses you by name, ignore them, ask them how they know you, pretend they're a divine messenger of the gods.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Forced Anonymity argument is just like the Forced POV argument in another thread. "I want to play this way. I want to make everyone else play this way too."
Perhaps there are variations of this argument that are like the other, but I am not advocating any "forced" style at all.
If someone wants to place their real character name over their head, I think they should be free to do that.
What I'm advocating is for the freedom to avoid doing that, if I don't want to.
If floating names are messing it up for you, you should have the option to tell your client to stop displaying them. There's no reason to take a perfectly valid tool away from everyone to force them to RP the way you want. If someone comes up and addresses you by name, ignore them, ask them how they know you, pretend they're a divine messenger of the gods.
So, you're advocating a system where I am "forced" to reveal my identity to everyone... Got ya.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Forced Anonymity argument is just like the Forced POV argument in another thread. "I want to play this way. I want to make everyone else play this way too."Perhaps there are variations of this argument that are like the other, but I am not advocating any "forced" style at all.
If someone wants to place their real character name over their head, I think they should be free to do that.
What I'm advocating is for the freedom to avoid doing that, if I don't want to.
If floating names are messing it up for you, you should have the option to tell your client to stop displaying them. There's no reason to take a perfectly valid tool away from everyone to force them to RP the way you want. If someone comes up and addresses you by name, ignore them, ask them how they know you, pretend they're a divine messenger of the gods.So, you're advocating a system where I am "forced" to reveal my identity to everyone... Got ya.
First, it's an industry standard. You're the one demanding a change.
Second, there is a system requirement for an identifier for your character. Aside from chat and reporting, identifiers will be needed for contracts, for markets to function, and for a number of other systems. Is it possible to smokescreen it behind things? Yes, it is probably technically possible, but it involves creating a complicated system. Oh, well, now we have to create an introduce mechanic. And now a way to identify people for things like mail, and establishing contracts with people you haven't met face to face. And restructuring our entire chat system. And grouping. All for one RP thing, that will cause confusion among new players.
Edit: Also, it's introducing a barrier to socialization in a game that's supposed to be social.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I feel character anonymity is going to be bad for the community, because it makes it harder to know who you can trust. With character anonymity, one may feel less accountable for their actions, and therefore behave like a jerk.
I'm all for choice, but I want people to be able to build a name for themselves good or bad and reputation should be something more than just a statistic. It becomes harder if you don't know who the person you are interacting with is.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes to PvP flags because they are important game mechanic meant to be known.
Yes to REPUTATION. Both as a mechanic and an rp device, you're reputation does precede you.
No to level/class/badges/etc.
Affiliations should be on toggle.
Names I am on the fence about. I think it's a good topic for crowdforging.
edit//
You know what I'm gonna say yes to floating names. Floating names helps RP way more than it hurts it. It makes circles wider and it lets the casual RP'ers stay relevant. When characters spend half their RP time finding out who is who that's not good for RP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You're the one demanding a change.
We need to be careful with our language. I don't see anyone "demanding" anything here; that word carries a lot of baggage.
This isn't even a point that we know Ryan's interested in crowdforging, so all we're doing is throwing around ideas and preferences. No demand, no foul.
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Goblin Squad Member
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First, it's an industry standard. You're the one demanding a change.
Yes, it's the standard, but I'm requesting a change, not demanding one.
I am perfectly willing to accept "the cost-benefit analysis determined it's not worth the development resources at this time" as a valid reason for not doing it. I will argue against the other reasons that don't make sense to me.
I feel character anonymity is going to be bad for the community, because it makes it harder to know who you can trust. With character anonymity, one may feel less accountable for their actions, and therefore behave like a jerk.
I think this touches on the main reason I am so adamant about anonymity. I understand this sentiment, but I think you've actually got it backwards.
If I have to create an alt in order to accomplish my goals that require anonymity, then I have crossed a line where there is no possibility whatsoever of my other character(s) being held accountable for my alt's actions, so I'm free to be as big of a jerk as I want to be.
However, if it's easier for me to just stay on my main character and go anonymous, then I'm going to do that instead, but I'll still be constrained because I know I can be held accountable.
There will still be players who choose to create disposable alts, but if the greater mass of "normal" players can accomplish their goals without resorting to alts, then the community will improve.
This is very closely related to my advocacy for removing account limitations like only being able to log in one character from an account at a time (thank you again, Ryan et al!). If the greater mass of "normal" players can get all the benefits of multiple accounts on a single account, then they're more likely to use that simpler option, which means they'll be constrained in their behavior because they know they can be held accountable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You're the one demanding a change.We need to be careful with our language. I don't see anyone "demanding" anything here; that word carries a lot of baggage.
This isn't even a point that we know Ryan's interested in crowdforging, so all we're doing is throwing around ideas and preferences. No demand, no foul.
You're right. That was a poor choice of words. Sorry Nihimon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This isn't even a point that we know Ryan's interested in crowdforging, so all we're doing is throwing around ideas and preferences.
I haven't seen anything more recent than this to clue us into Ryan's thoughts on this matter.
@Ryan, Any thoughts on First/Last name capability or non-unique names?I am of two minds.
One mind says that having all names be unique is the path of least resistance and it will help people by not sewing confusion. Having a first and a last name is probably going to happen - and I already know all about the people who name-crash people's attempt to create in-game family trees. Yay.
Another mind says that the real world has lots of people with duplicate names and we somehow manage to deal with it. Having no restriction on duplicate names would make it easy for everyone to get the name they want. On the other hand, I guarantee you the Goons will have a Player Nation with a thousand characters with the same name. And it will be as close to offensive as they can get without getting the name flagged for a change. So that would for many people suck.
There are pros and cons to both approaches and neither seems demonstrably better than the other to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It becomes harder if you don't know who the person you are interacting with is.On the internet, no one knows you're a dog.
You know who the other person is unless you're video-chatting with them.
True, but you will know who the character they are playing is. Unless someone sells the account, you can always say "Hey, that guy helped me defeat those goblins in the escalation last moth, he's ok." There is always going to be player anonymity. But our characters should be able to be known to other players.
Even with the ability to anonymous, people will still create disposable alts. If you are anonymous, you will still get alignment and rep hits for anything you do that would earn them, and you are sill your alignment for purposes of joining or using settlement. So there will be no real reason to go anonymous if you are trying to game the system or make a spy. I honestly don't see why someone would choose to go anonymous when you are still subject to alignment and reputation. All it will do is discourage people playing legitimately from making social connections, without discouraging people from making alts.
Who you are in the real world is irrelevant, but who you are playing in game is very relevant, and should be available to players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unless someone sells the account, you can always say "Hey, that guy helped me defeat those goblins in the escalation last moth, he's ok." There is always going to be player anonymity. But our characters should be able to be known to other players.
This would continue to be true even if our ideas about character anonymity were part of the game.
All it will do is discourage people playing legitimately from making social connections...
I think there are a number of people posting here who see how it would actually make their social connections stronger and better. I certainly do.
Who you are in the real world is irrelevant, but who you are playing in game is very relevant, and should be available to players.
I fail to see how my character's true identity should be any more available than the contents of his inventory.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think there are a number of people posting here who see how it would actually make their social connections stronger and better. I certainly do.
Here's the part I disagree. As great as it sounds in theory, you will be RP'ing with hundreds of characters and interacting with tens of thousands. Sorting out who is who will be much more hassle than it's worth. This sort of thing only works in small groups 100 >.
Requiring introductions for RP and notation for repeat RP only makes the RP circles smaller and more elite.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not to mention the fact that it will be impossible to tell one character from another visually. No matter how many options we have for character avatar customization, there will be hundreds of characters who appear the same. Without a unique identifier such as a name, it will be almost impossible to build relationships with strangers you may be interacting with. Every time you change that name, you cut those ties, so after someone does that a few times, why bother making new ones?
I think the negatives outweigh the positives on this one, but I don't think we are going to change anyone's opinion at this point.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the answer is aliases.I'm intrigued by the idea of aliases. Has any game so far had them?
I can see lots of problems in games without the strict anti-griefing that Ryan's told us we'll see in PFO.
There's been a couple suggestions for alias in conjunction with a disguise system that I thought have been promising, but I can't think of any other games that employ that sort of mechanic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not to mention the fact that it will be impossible to tell one character from another visually. No matter how many options we have for character avatar customization, there will be hundreds of characters who appear the same. Without a unique identifier such as a name, it will be almost impossible to build relationships with strangers you may be interacting with. Every time you change that name, you cut those ties, so after someone does that a few times, why bother making new ones?
I think the negatives outweigh the positives on this one, but I don't think we are going to change anyone's opinion at this point.
Well I do believe in the idea of aliases as long as you make it prohibitive to constant change; ie cash shop.
There are very legit reasons that would be HUGE to the game concept (assassinations) that a character would need an alias. But at the same time we don't want the entire population changing its name every 2 hours.
It could be $15 per alias, up to 3 for a character.
or
$10 for an alias, and another $10 every time you want to change it.
or
$15 for the alias "widget". You can change the name it bears through cash shop or sky metal.
I'll leave it to the programmers to say how it's done and how often they want it. But I can't believe that there isn't a ahappy medium to be found where GW makes money and the people who absolutely must have this feature have it available.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not to mention the fact that it will be impossible to tell one character from another visually. No matter how many options we have for character avatar customization, there will be hundreds of characters who appear the same. Without a unique identifier such as a name, it will be almost impossible to build relationships with strangers you may be interacting with. Every time you change that name, you cut those ties, so after someone does that a few times, why bother making new ones?
I think the negatives outweigh the positives on this one, but I don't think we are going to change anyone's opinion at this point.
Well I do believe in the idea of aliases as long as you make it prohibitive to constant change; ie cash shop.
There are very legit reasons that would be HUGE to the game concept (assassinations) that a character would need an alias. But at the same time we don't want the entire population changing its name every 2 hours.
...
I'll leave it to the programmers to say how it's done and how often they want it. But I can't believe that there isn't a ahappy medium to be found where GW makes money and the people who absolutely must have this feature have it available.
I'm not sold on the fact that aliases or disguises must be available for assassins to be able to effectively carry out contracts. Stealth would be as effective if not more so in stalking/approaching your mark and those using the assassin flag have a bonus to stealth to make it more likely to succeed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sold on the fact that aliases or disguises must be available for assassins to be able to effectively carry out contracts. Stealth would be as effective if not more so in stalking/approaching your mark and those using the assassin flag have a bonus to stealth to make it more likely to succeed.
Nah, an alias would be huge. Stealthing past everyone is not viable in many cases, factor in the NPC guards and an alias would add entire new dimension to it. Throw in the very legit RP uses and yes aliases rock hard. Like I said though, moderation is the key.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Requiring introductions for RP and notation for repeat RP only makes the RP circles smaller and more elite.
I have never advocating having to keep your own records. In fact, I've been very positive about the logs that I believe we'll have access to, to let us recall information about the characters with whom we've interacted.
For example, when I am introduced to a character that I haven't formally met before, I should now see their name attached to all my previous log entries that involved them (unless they were doing something at the time to present a false identity).
Without a unique identifier such as a name, it will be almost impossible to build relationships with strangers you may be interacting with.
Since a number of people are pointing out the problems with systems that I have never advocated, I'm going to quit worrying about it in this thread. I will try to start a new thread that actually describes the system I'm actually advocating.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Aliases sound interesting. However, use of them potentially doubles the number of names in use game-wide, and given that Ryan hasn't ruled out the use of non-unique names (see Nihimon's post upthread), this worries me.
In a game that is highly dependent on social reputation - not the game mechanic, but player knowledge like Imbicatus' "Hey, that guy helped me defeat those goblins in the escalation last moth, he's ok." example - multiple uses of the same name either allow one character to benefit from another's good social reputation, or force one character to suffer from another's bad social reputation. Adding aliases, especially changeable aliases, simply makes this more likely to occur if names are non-unique.
Also, paying for an alias seems unfair. Not everyone will need or want an alias, so selling them forces those who do need them (assassins, etc.) to pay Real Life money for something to make their characters function in a properly shadowy way.
Perhaps allowing one "alias" name slot per account - unchangeable - would work. It's been a few years, but I believe City of Heroes' global (inter-server) chat system used an account-wide "handle" in place of individual character names. An "account alias" which can be used by each character or not could function similarly.