Goblin Squad Member
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I'm much more interested in having lots of the alternate advancement path stuff...
+1!
Since finding out about Pathfinder Online, and subsequently finding out about Pathfinder, I've created both a Wizard and a Paladin, and I have to say the Alternate Advancement paths are completely, totally awesome, and it is my greatest desire that PFO is able to capture some of that same spirit.
Vanguard is arguably the buggiest and least successful "tripla A" MMOs ever put out, and yet I (and a few others) still enjoy playing it. I truly believe that's largely due to the fact that their Class design was extremely well done.
Vanguard is arguably the buggiest and least successful "tripla A" MMOs ever put out, and yet I (and a few others) still enjoy playing it. I truly believe that's largely due to the fact that their Class design was extremely well done.
I agree. Laggy, buggy with all kinds of problems but several things about the game just make it more fun then many games being put out nowdays.
As far as Monks go, so long as they have the ability to train lots of attacks and special abilities, I would be fine with them starting out with a few animations and adding more as they go along replacing duplicates.
I'm much more interested in having lots of the alternate advancement path stuff...+1!
Since finding out about Pathfinder Online, and subsequently finding out about Pathfinder, I've created both a Wizard and a Paladin, and I have to say the Alternate Advancement paths are completely, totally awesome, and it is my greatest desire that PFO is able to capture some of that same spirit.
Vanguard is arguably the buggiest and least successful "tripla A" MMOs ever put out, and yet I (and a few others) still enjoy playing it. I truly believe that's largely due to the fact that their Class design was extremely well done.
I played it when it was released, and came back to it a few months ago. If you think it's bad NOW, you should have played it THEN. The game was literally unplayable at peak hours. When you crossed a 'chunk' line, you DC'd every single time if there were more than 2 or 3 players anywhere around.
That being said, the diplomacy system is amazing. The different classes are SO well designed and so interesting, it's just ridiculous. Even crafting is engrossing - this from someone who LOATHES crafting in most MMO's. I really wish their backers had given them the 6 extra months of development time they wanted before it went live... I really feel that Vanguard had the potential to be one of the best MMO's ever, if not THE best MMO of it's time. Unfortunately, like so many MMO's it was rushed out early and failed disastrously. *sigh*
But yeah, alternate advancement paths are the best thing to happen to D&D(the d20 system IS D&D) since forever. Prestige classes were an ok idea, and still have their place, but alternate advancement paths are superior in nearly every way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you think it's bad NOW, you should have played it THEN.
I did. I followed Vanguard fairly closely (not as closely as PFO) prior to release, and was there on day 1 of early release. And I loved it, despite the lag and bugs. And I kept on playing a lot longer than the rest of my guild/friends, and even my wife. That's why I say it really broke my heart when I finally gave up on it.
For whatever reason, our guild sent out an email several months ago that they were getting back together on Vanguard, and since my wife and I weren't really enjoying anything else, we decided to go back. We're having fun, but it's still laggy and buggy.
My main problem with it right now, though, is the way they try to drag money out of you at every turn. They made the best bags in the game (by far) be the ones you can only buy in the Cash Store. They made practically every mob have a chance of dropping Lockboxes (if you play for an hour, you'll get one), but you can only open then with Skeleton Keys from the Cash Shop. I resent most of the money I've spent on those kinds of things, and I feel like the effort I put into making a crafter was utterly wasted. It very much reminds me of Ryan's analysis that most of these games realize they have to suck as much money out of their customers as quickly as they can because the customers won't stick around.
That being said, the diplomacy system is amazing.
I agree, and I keep going back and forth on whether or not to ask Ryan to add something similar. Being able to put up public buffs in specific areas is amazing.
I played it when it was released, and came back to it a few months ago.
Are you in a guild? What do you do when you play?
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Goblin Squad Member
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They made practically every mob have a chance of dropping Lockboxes (if you play for an hour, you'll get one), but you can only open then with Skeleton Keys from the Cash Shop.
I read this and had to check and see if it was a PerfectWorld game. Champions Online and Star Trek Online are lousy with lockbox drops. I've usually got over a hundred by level 15, because I won't buy the keys for them unless I"m sure I'm sticking with the character.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For the love of gaming, can PFO avoid the cash store??
I would pay $20.00 per month just to avoid a cash store. The problem with these cash stores are that they always start off with, "They will only be Cosmetic Items" and before you know it... Drop Box Keys; character slots; respec tokens; playable races; etc...
If GW makes a quality game, right from the get go, people will gladly pay subs and the base will grow naturally. We don't need no F2P with gimmicky store items if the game is truly great.
EvE Online is not a good example to point to, unless you want to argue, they tried to go with a cash shop and abandoned it as a complete waste of time.
I
I played it when it was released, and came back to it a few months ago.Are you in a guild? What do you do when you play?I haven't played for a few weeks. My main is a Disciple(imagine that! ;P). I'm not in a guild, and I have way too many alts right now. Oh yeah, my main is lvl 41-ish. I've been trying to decide whether I want to level up the disciple I made since I cam back or my higher level one, since I didn't really do much with either Diplomacy or Crafting on the level 41 Disciple, and my lvl 15 disciple has all of his skills maxxed.
I also have a lower level Monk and Dread Knight. Maybe a Paladin, too. I'm kind of an altoholic. This Disciple is the only 'healer' character I've ever played in an MMO more than a few levels. I find the Disciple to be an amazingly fun character both to solo and party with, though I haven't really healed groups with him since, oh, 2007?
I normally play later at night, though not as much lately since I started back to college full time and I've been distracted by StarCraft 2's new xpac...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I find the Disciple to be an amazingly fun character both to solo and party with...
I couldn't agree move. I genuinely believe that if I had any clue how fun and awesome the Disciple was, I probably would have made that my main. I only realized it during raids when my Paladin and a single Disciple would be expected to hold a boss mob while the rest of the raid did something else.
In fact, I'm most often thinking of the Disciple when I praise Vanguard's awesome class design :)
For the love of gaming, can PFO avoid the cash store??
I would pay $20.00 per month just to avoid a cash store. The problem with these cash stores are that they always start off with, "They will only be Cosmetic Items" and before you know it... Drop Box Keys; character slots; respec tokens; playable races; etc...
If GW makes a quality game, right from the get go, people will gladly pay subs and the base will grow naturally. We don't need no F2P with gimmicky store items if the game is truly great.
EvE Online is not a good example to point to, unless you want to argue, they tried to go with a cash shop and abandoned it as a complete waste of time.
Cash shops are fine as long as it's for cosmetic things. The perfect example is the system League of Legends uses. The only thing that you have to spend money on is champion skins, everything else can be earned in game. Anything that actually makes your character more powerful HAS to be earned in game.
As long as GW doesn't sell power or convenience(making the best bags have to be bought with real money - which really is power, tbh) and makes their money from their 'Plex' system then it'll be perfectly fine.
I'm perfectly fine with a LoL style cash shop, though. Unique skins, fancier clothes/gear appearances, cool special effects and/or the ability to color our spell and power animations to our preference are all examples of things people will pay for that won't make you stronger but will make you COOLER.
I'm okay with that!
I find the Disciple to be an amazingly fun character both to solo and party with...I couldn't agree move. I genuinely believe that if I had any clue how fun and awesome the Disciple was, I probably would have made that my main. I only realized it during raids when my Paladin and a single Disciple would be expected to hold a boss mob while the rest of the raid did something else.
In fact, I'm most often thinking of the Disciple when I praise Vanguard's awesome class design :)
I love the fact that there's a different, well thought out, interesting 'resource' mechanic for most classes. I like the variation in heal classes. Look at WoW. It took them 10 years to come up with a healer that didn't make you stand in the back of the group and spend all your time right clicking on health bars(the new monk healing class) and then nerfed it into the ground within 8 weeks of it going live.
But yeah... the Disciple is ridiculously awesome. Heals forever as long as the tank can keep aggro and the mob doesn't do a ridiculous amount of AoE.
I also really love Vanguard's critical hit chains. <3
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just spent the morning watching the pilot episode of Kung Fu the TV series. I would suspect that Kane had mastered both the Tiger and Dragon styles, being that those were the brands that he had. His opponent was Tiger and Snake, I believe, but definitely Snake was one of them.
This got me thinking... In PFO, the consumables for Ki power enhancements could be body dyes or even acupuncture needles into existing tattoos / brands that represent the archetype of our Monk abilities and or feats.
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Goblin Squad Member
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He has the brands from the shaolin graduation test, where you have to live a scalding caldron with your forearms as the last step. The Tiger and Dragon is a trope of the genre, not a reference to a specific animal style. See here for more examples.
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Goblin Squad Member
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He has the brands from the shaolin graduation test, where you have to live a scalding caldron with your forearms as the last step. The Tiger and Dragon is a trope of the genre, not a reference to a specific animal style. See here for more examples.
Interesting, thank you. I went back and watched the video again, and could not clearly see if the other Monk had the same brands as Kane, but perhaps he did. He definitely used the Snake style of fighting.
I'm hoping that Monks will be fully fleshed out in PFO. Although I don't expect it early on during EE, I'd hope by launch it will be.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wait until the monk buys lunch.
Speaking of buying.....even a little...
If a Monk were to follow a vow of non materialism, how open to a barter system might the PFO community be?
I'm sure that a Monastery would function is such a way, but how would a traveling Monk get by in the River Kingdoms?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wait until the monk buys lunch.Speaking of buying.....even a little...
If a Monk were to follow a vow of non materialism, how open to a barter system might the PFO community be?
I'm sure that a Monastery would function is such a way, but how would a traveling Monk get by in the River Kingdoms?
I'd imagine the idea of a barter system as problematic to say the least in the game mechanics. Coin is the one thing you can carry around without worrying about losing it. Services I suppose would be the next closest thing one could offer that couldn't be stolen so easily. Don't get me wrong, if you pick the right item, it would likely be worth MORE than cash, by eliminating the risk of transport/gathering the item itself to the customer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd imagine the idea of a barter system as problematic to say the least in the game mechanics. Coin is the one thing you can carry around without worrying about losing it. Services I suppose would be the next closest thing one could offer that couldn't be stolen so easily. Don't get me wrong, if you pick the right item, it would likely be worth MORE than cash, by eliminating the risk of transport/gathering the item itself to the customer.
Yes, barter with offer of services for services or consumables. Kind of like, "I'll work for Food and Shelter".
I plan on being an herbalist, so all that I would be carrying are the herbs that I collected and the salves and remedies I crafted. If someone wants to steal them from me, they are welcome to them, because I was freely giving them away ( or hoping to do so).
If they attacked me, without offer of a SAD first, I am hoping to be a Flowing Monk. I would avoid their attacks as long as I could, and redirect their attacks back at them. If I lose, I lost nothing. If I defeat them, I would place a healing salve in their husk, and a message of some really deep philosophy about perfecting one's physical, mental a spiritual being.
I actually hope they do NOT throw in a vow of poverty.
In 3.5, Vow of Poverty was pretty powerful. I don't actually think it was OP, considering what you had to give up but lots of other people did. In PFRPG, it's just garbage though thes rest of the 'vow' system is cool. An extra point of ki every couple levels just isn't equivalent to giving up all material goods aside from sackcloth clothes, a rope belt, and a stick picked up on the roadside for self defense.
If it's something that is purely roleplay, and they accomodate the roleplay by allowing some system for bartering services for needed training and other stuff, I'll be fine with it. Likely the only thing that would require this is training, since it has been said that it will definitely cost in game currency.
On the other hand, for those of you who wish to roleplay an impoverished monk, isn't the gold system going to be completely abstract anyway? It can't be stolen, only given away. If you roleplay giving away your money regularly and only use it for things that every character will HAVE to spend currency on(i.e. training and settlement taxes, etc.) couldn't you simply RP that your 'good deeds' have convinced the settlement's trainers to train you. In order to make you stronger, so that you can do more good deeds and help them even more. Even if you're training in a Chaotic or evil settlement, most people in fiction still repay their debts.
The people at Paizo are pretty smart. Same at GW. With the huge amount of fail in the other attempts at a vow of poverty, I'd prefer if they leave the RP where it belongs... as RP. A system similar to 3.5's vow breaks the item system, something GW has said they won't do. One similar to PFRPG is awful, and probably a noob trap. Anyway you look at it, it's something they really SHOULDN'T do.
Yeah. Leave something that can be done as role play inside the field of roleplay, please. At least, that's my opinion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If a Monk were to follow a vow of non materialism, how open to a barter system might the PFO community be?
I'm sure that a Monastery would function is such a way, but how would a traveling Monk get by in the River Kingdoms?
This is one of the reasons I hope there is a separate coin and gem currency system, in addition to (or instead of) "coin". Precious metals can be discovered, mined, refined and minted into coinage of various types. (I have mentioned a few times copper, silver, gold, platinum, paladium, and possibly mithril and adamantite coinage, though those last two might be rare and better used as ingots in the making of rare arms and armor.) Likewise, gemstones would have to be discovered, mined, and cut by a skilled gemcutter in order for them to have maximum value. Both gems and metallic coinage would be able to be traded for items without using the ethereal "coin" that is the current proscribed currency mechanic.
In addition, any other commodity, crafted item, or finished product should be a barterable item with a easily implemented trade window. Or things could be sold on contract using goods as payment instead of currency. Seems easy enough.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I actually hope they do NOT throw in a vow of poverty.
In 3.5, Vow of Poverty was pretty powerful. I don't actually think it was OP, considering what you had to give up but lots of other people did. In PFRPG, it's just garbage though thes rest of the 'vow' system is cool. An extra point of ki every couple levels just isn't equivalent to giving up all material goods aside from sackcloth clothes, a rope belt, and a stick picked up on the roadside for self defense.
I was actually unaware that there was a game mechanic that rewarded taking such a vow. I was thinking purely in RP terms, but I could see why it should carry a small bonus for taking it. Perhaps it could be treated as a trait or feat as you detailed in your post.
It not being equal to what is given up, in your opinion, is what makes it a sacrifice and worthy of a vow (IMHO).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that materialism is relative for a monk. A vow of poverty could preclude owning property, which would make a monastery had to build and maintain. Cloistered monks might be less materialistic, but the monk that goes out into the world to spread or uphold their ideals would have to deal with real world (or game world) problems and solutions. Being the bearer of a special weapon could be seen as simply being the current custodian of the item. Not possessed, but honored. The monk becomes the vehicle with which the special item accomplishes it's destiny. Think of the Green Destiny Sword from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.
With regard to other materialistic items, such as improved hand wraps or a magical ki focus item, it may be that the monk is the focus of many moving parts of destinty, the center of a whirlwind of items which are fated to be a part of the monk's quest or journey. Using them would be more like using a chair that happened to be there. The 300 Quality monks spade is just something that was convenient at the time.
A monk may have a trade (herbalist or blacksmith, for example) that is used for the betterment of the community. Materials cost and a monk could make a modest profit to insure that their contribution to the community continued.
I actually hope they do NOT throw in a vow of poverty.
In 3.5, Vow of Poverty was pretty powerful. I don't actually think it was OP, considering what you had to give up but lots of other people did. In PFRPG, it's just garbage though thes rest of the 'vow' system is cool. An extra point of ki every couple levels just isn't equivalent to giving up all material goods aside from sackcloth clothes, a rope belt, and a stick picked up on the roadside for self defense.
I was actually unaware that there was a game mechanic that rewarded taking such a vow. I was thinking purely in RP terms, but I could see why it should carry a small bonus for taking it. Perhaps it could be treated as a trait or feat as you detailed in your post.
It not being equal to what is given up, in your opinion, is what makes it a sacrifice and worthy of a vow (IMHO).
If you have access to the PFRPG book 'Ultimate Magic' look in the monk section in there. It has a variety of vows, including poverty and even chastity! The 3.5 version is in 'Book of Exalted Deeds'. In case you're interested to see what I'm talking about.
The original monk character class in AD&D was limited to the number of magic items he could own. I want to say it came to 7, including up to 3 magic weapons? It's been a long time since I've looked at First Ed.
While I get what you're saying about making it a sacrifice, there has to be some kind of give and take for it. Most people will never want to use something that restricts what they're capable of without some kind of approximately equal trade in return. While a small portion of the community might think this sounds great on paper, how long would most of them continue to play a character when they realize that it completely gimps them in a fight?
The point is, I feel this should stay as an in-character roleplay thing, not a game mechanic. I'm pretty hardcore about monks. I played one in Everquest for 3 or 4 years with the ball and chain of their weight restrictions. This is the closest any MMO has ever come to anything like what is being suggested here. Let me tell you, it wasn't fun and it didn't really get you anything useful, but I like my RPG hop and chop heroes!
Again, just my opinion. *shrug*
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Goblin Squad Member
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I actually hope they do NOT throw in a vow of poverty.
It seems to me that a Vow of Poverty is really just a means to an end. Specifically, that the Monk is forced to be humble and find other people who are willing to give him what he needs. In essence, it is a way to force him to serve others.
A potentially useful resource:
Darn you!
Darn you to heck!
Yet another book I have to buy!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Dave Gross' Master of Devils delves into Ki and related matters. I very much liked this author's 'Prince of Wolves' enough to have picked this one up in consequence.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Dave Gross' Master of Devils delves into Ki and related matters.
I should return home today, with this book waiting for me. Probably resting in my Wife's hands, witn that look she always gives me, as she utters... "Not another book!!"....
My side of the walk-in closet is dominated by three booksehelves, filled and stacked high with books.