Deleting non-offensive replies to dubious moderation would be Orwellian if it wasn't so pathetically insecure. Yeah, I know this post is still-born but it's meant for you guys anyway.
Or maybe you'll ban me, if not now, then at the first and flimsiest opportunity.
I don't really care. I don't mind the forum itself, but when it's the kind where posts simply disagreeing with Mods are deleted, it's no big loss.
Never! My spellbooks go to the grave with me!
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Funny, I've always thought their moderation to be too lenient.
One point I like to make is, this is private property. You don't own any of the posts you make here. Paizo does. Edit: Reference.
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If you find moderation to have been heavy handed or mis-directed, then it is generally in your best interest to discuss that moderation politely, in private with the moderator.
It's fine to disagree with moderators, but discussing it in a thread that is being moderated is asking for flame/trollbait. Nothing good comes from it. Since nothing good comes from it, deleting public criticism of moderation decisions is good moderating.
In my best interest? What are they going to do? Show up at my house with a baseball bat? Please. I've never had issues like this on ENworld, RPS, The Escapist or any other forums that I frequent/have frequented.
"Please don't publicly criticize the infallible ones. It ruffles their feathers." Yeah, whatever.
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If you find moderation to have been heavy handed or mis-directed, then it is generally in your best interest to discuss that moderation politely, in private with the moderator.
It's fine to disagree with moderators, but discussing it in a thread that is being moderated is asking for flame/trollbait. Nothing good comes from it. Since nothing good comes from it, deleting public criticism of moderation decisions is good moderating.
True, but this way is much more entertaining for the rest of us.
So, where's the drama?
If you find moderation to have been heavy handed or mis-directed, then it is generally in your best interest to discuss that moderation politely, in private with the moderator.
It's fine to disagree with moderators, but discussing it in a thread that is being moderated is asking for flame/trollbait. Nothing good comes from it. Since nothing good comes from it, deleting public criticism of moderation decisions is good moderating.
True, but this way is much more entertaining for the rest of us.
So, where's the drama?
There wasn't any to begin with. That's why I'm complaining. Of course, even if there had been, It's deleted now.
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I'd like to take another approach, here. And this applies to all message boards, honestly. Not just this one.
You know, being a Moderator is a thankless job. If we, as guests, find a post offensive, or objectionable, or if it makes our blood boil, we can just click "close" and move past it. We can choose to stay out of threads that make us roll our eyes and wish we didn't share a hobby with certain people.
Moderators don't have that luxury. They have to go in to each and every pit of drek and deal with the garbage they find there. They have to enforce rules that most posters never even bothered reading when they signed up. They have to try to make everyone happy, which we know results in making no one happy. Poster A says they are too strict. Poster B says they are too lenient. How do they negotiate the middle ground? Surprise! There is no middle ground.
No matter what they do, someone is going to criticize them. And at the end of the day, whether this is their "job" or just something they do out of love of the subject, it's not like they are sitting at home in mansions, petting their pet minks and eating peeled grapes as they delete a post here, ban a user there.
It's a job. And it sucks. And I am as guilty as everyone else for questioning their decisions sometimes. But you know what? Without them, this would be a much uglier place, and at the end of the day, I know I would enjoy it less if there wasn't someone willing to bite the bullet and take the abuse and just do what they do.
So, to the mods: thank you for what you do. Even if I don't always agree with you, you have an ugly job, and I know for a fact I wouldn't want to do it. Do what you do. And honestly...thanks.
In my best interest? What are they going to do? Show up at my house with a baseball bat? Please. I've never had issues like this on ENworld, RPS, The Escapist or any other forums that I frequent/have frequented.
"Please don't publicly criticize the infallible ones. It ruffles their feathers." Yeah, whatever.
It has nothing to do with fallibility. It has everything to do with the fact that this is a business. It is in Paizo's best interest that people play nice, and it is in their best interest for moderation to be decisive.
Being publicly critical of moderation invites drama. Drama causes the moderators to work harder, for no benefit. It is not their job to banter over what is and isn't proper moderation.
When you are on ENworld, RPS, or the Escapist, you are in their playground and play by their rules, and when you're in Paizo's you play by theirs. Having been a moderator elsewhere on the Interwebs, I have to say that Paizo's moderation is amazingly even-keeled and light-handed considering that the developers, designers, and even CEO are regular posters.
It's common courtesy to discuss moderation issues in private, and escalate them if you're being actively wronged.
Aw... some warm fuzzies for the moderators... That's so sweet.
So... do the moderators of this site get paid actual money to moderate?
Because if they do, well, then they get paid. Right? So it's not really "thankless" in that sense is it.
And if they don't get paid, why the heck do they do it? (And how do I sign up? Ultimate power over a tiny little universe has always been a dream of mine.)
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There wasn't any to begin with. That's why I'm complaining. Of course, even if there had been, It's deleted now.If you find moderation to have been heavy handed or mis-directed, then it is generally in your best interest to discuss that moderation politely, in private with the moderator.
It's fine to disagree with moderators, but discussing it in a thread that is being moderated is asking for flame/trollbait. Nothing good comes from it. Since nothing good comes from it, deleting public criticism of moderation decisions is good moderating.
True, but this way is much more entertaining for the rest of us.
So, where's the drama?
I don't get it. If there was no drama (CoC violations) then nothing's been deleted. If there was drama and posts deleted, then there's evidence of it in the form of "posts have been deleted messages."
Which is it?
Also, it's not unusual for mods to deleted posts replying to deleted posts because they oftentimes contain quoted text from the offender.
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Being publicly critical of moderation invites drama. Drama causes the moderators to work harder, for no benefit. It is not their job to banter over what is and isn't proper moderation.
It's worth pointing out that the "mods" here are Paizo employees and they all have other jobs with titles like "software developer," "creative director," "developer," so on and etc. The more time they moderate, the less time they have to do the important stuff.
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Aw... some warm fuzzies for the moderators... That's so sweet.
So... do the moderators of this site get paid actual money to moderate?
Because if they do, well, then they get paid. Right? So it's not really "thankless" in that sense is it.
And if they don't get paid, why the heck do they do it? (And how do I sign up? Ultimate power over a tiny little universe has always been a dream of mine.)
Anyone whose actual job duties includes "moderating the messageboards" certainly has a lot more important and critical things to do, like "make sure the site doesn't crash" and "get these PDFs out to subscribers when the order ships" and "answer customer service emails and phone calls."
Dealing with obnoxious things on the messageboards may be part of their job, but it's certainly not the most rewarding part of their job, and it's probably the worst part of their job.
And just because you're paid to do something doesn't mean that counts as thanking them.
So maybe you should not throw gasoline on this fire?
There wasn't any to begin with. That's why I'm complaining. Of course, even if there had been, It's deleted now.If you find moderation to have been heavy handed or mis-directed, then it is generally in your best interest to discuss that moderation politely, in private with the moderator.
It's fine to disagree with moderators, but discussing it in a thread that is being moderated is asking for flame/trollbait. Nothing good comes from it. Since nothing good comes from it, deleting public criticism of moderation decisions is good moderating.
True, but this way is much more entertaining for the rest of us.
So, where's the drama?
I don't get it. If there was no drama (CoC violations) then nothing's been deleted. If there was drama and posts deleted, then there's evidence of it in the form of "posts have been deleted messages."
Which is it?
Also, it's not unusual for mods to deleted posts replying to deleted posts because they oftentimes contain quoted text from the offender.
I posted the "Orc bloodline is stupid" thread, Liz changed the the title to "orc bloodline is ???", I replied (not impolitely) that the moderation was unnecessary, and then Lambertz deleted my reply, which I think is a steaming pile of you know what.
Aw... some warm fuzzies for the moderators... That's so sweet.
So... do the moderators of this site get paid actual money to moderate?
Because if they do, well, then they get paid. Right? So it's not really "thankless" in that sense is it.
And if they don't get paid, why the heck do they do it? (And how do I sign up? Ultimate power over a tiny little universe has always been a dream of mine.)
Anyone whose actual job duties includes "moderating the messageboards" certainly has a lot more important and critical things to do, like "make sure the site doesn't crash" and "get these PDFs out to subscribers when the order ships" and "answer customer service emails and phone calls."
Dealing with obnoxious things on the messageboards may be part of their job, but it's certainly not the most rewarding part of their job, and it's probably the worst part of their job.
And just because you're paid to do something doesn't mean that counts as thanking them.
So maybe you should not throw gasoline on this fire?
It doesn't count as thanking them, but if they get paid they don't need thanks. I used to work at jewelry company, and I never expected to be thanked by people who wore a piece I may have worked on, because, you know, that was my job.
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Hmm, "they don't need thanks" sounds a lot like a "thankless job" to me. And I'm guessing that your job at the jewelry company didn't require you to personally interact with the people buying the items you made. Here, people are directly interacting with Liz, Chris, and other people who are making the decisions that the OP is complaining about.
And just because a person at a retail store is paid to ring up your purchases doesn't mean you are completely absolved of the common courtesy of saying "thank you" when the transaction is done.
It's basic human politeness.
Remember, you're interacting with humans, not faceless corporate slaves. Try acting like a decent person and you'll find people are more likely to go out of their way to address your concerns... or even help you.
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Sean, do you need a hug?
No, I'm just tired of people who think "it's their job" means "it's ok if I am a jerk to them because it's their job to deal with jerks."
Anyone whose actual job duties includes "moderating the messageboards" certainly has a lot more important and critical things to do, like "make sure the site doesn't crash" and "get these PDFs out to subscribers when the order ships" and "answer customer service emails and phone calls."
Have you considered a team of volunteers? I mean, I assume you've considered it, since it's pretty obvious, but may I ask why you decided not to go with it?
Well, one, that's Gary's call, not mine.
Two, that's what the "flag it and move on" functionality is for. It means the moderators don't have to pore through every post of every thread, they can look for posts that people flag and hop right to those.
PostMonster General
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I posted the "Orc bloodline is stupid" thread, Liz changed the the title to "orc bloodline is ???", I replied (not impolitely) that the moderation was unnecessary, and then Lambertz deleted my reply, which I think is a steaming pile of you know what.
It would have been helpful to include this information in your original post here so we know what you're talking about.
Generally if you want to talk about moderation decisions, the place for it is a thread like this one in the website feedback forum, not in the thread where the moderation has taken place. This helps keep conversations on-topic.
As I've said before, moderation is a judgment call. We're human, we have foibles and feelings just like you do. Every decision we make is going to be disliked or disagreed with or called heavy-handed censorship or a "steaming pile of you know what" by somebody.
I personally probably would've left the word "stupid" in the thread title myself, but maybe not. The meta-commentary about the thread title change? Absolutely I'd've removed it myself had I seen it.
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I posted the "Orc bloodline is stupid" thread, Liz changed the the title to "orc bloodline is ???", I replied (not impolitely) that the moderation was unnecessary, and then Lambertz deleted my reply, which I think is a steaming pile of you know what.
I think that they felt moderation was necessary because the title was inflammatory - and take this from someone who has had DOZENS of posts deleted.
They didn't want you to set up a combative thread from the get-go..and that title was combative and inflammatory.
No one is saying that you can't think that the orc bloodline is stupid - but putting it out in the title is inviting a fight and seems confrontational. And that's something they would like to avoid.
Plus debate about moderator actions is off topic in any forum other than this one. The post wasnt deleted for "simply disagreeing with Mods" as implied in the OP (note that this thread hasnt been deleted), it was deleted because it was off topic (and in a way likely to result in a lively derail of the original thread).
Sean, do you need a hug?No, I'm just tired of people who think "it's their job" means "it's ok if I am a jerk to them because it's their job to deal with jerks."
THIS!
I am a custodian. Part of my job is to clean up others' messes. That does not make it okay for someone to deliberately make extra work for me.
Northstar, in response to your original post, they don't need an excuse to ban you, nor is it insecure or overly controlling. This is Paizo's store. "You were rude, now go away." is perfectly valid.
Sean, do you need a hug?No, I'm just tired of people who think "it's their job" means "it's ok if I am a jerk to them because it's their job to deal with jerks."
Maybe you should moderated for indirectly calling me a jerk.
Yeah, that'll happen. lol
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Call a spade a spade.
Coincidentally, this is why it is in your best interest to contact the mods privately. Otherwise you get the peanut gallery jumping in and nothing actually gets resolved.
Not that your 'I'm right and will fight to the death to prove it' tone leads me to believe you actually want anything resolved.
Not that your 'I'm right and will fight to the death to prove it' tone leads me to believe you actually want anything resolved.
Jerk
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For the record, "moderation is unnecessary," is not your decision, North Star. It's Paizo's boards, and they're the ones who choose what to moderate.
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Moderation is almost always a rough job, even when you're being paid to do it.
It isn't part of the job description for a lot of the Paizo employees that have moderation powers. We do it because we care about creating a community space that is useful, functional, and welcoming. But it is very much on top of our full-time+ jobs.
There's a key trade-off there: we don't have a full-time moderator/PR person who is the conduit for most or even all interaction between fans and employees, which allows you to interact directly with the people who make the stuff you're using. Want to ask our creative director a question about why he chose to make a particular city evil? You can do that, and there's a good chance he'll answer. You don't have to wait for someone to set up an AMA or a moderated "developer chat." He's right here, on the boards, and you can ask him. You will likely get his (and other employees') frank and detailed opinions, because we also don't have a middle-man telling us what the talking points are.
As someone who's done community management, even as a paid community manager, you don't deserve to have people treat you like crap because you did your job and changed a thread title that would likely have started off a contentious argument rather than a discussion. Heading off flamewars is part of creating a healthy and welcoming community. It's also part of your job to ensure that discussion remains on-topic, which means that discussion of moderation policies doesn't belong in the thread that triggered the moderation.
It's not "pathetically insecure": It's part of keeping discussion organized and useful. When I go to a subforum about rules, and click on a thread entitled "Does sneak attack damage stack?" I should find discussion about sneak attack damage, not a debate about forum policies. If I have to wade through pages of off-topic discussion in order to find the information referenced in the thread title, the forum quickly ceases to be a useful resource.
So, if you have feedback about a moderation policy, it's very easy to get in touch with a staff member via this forum or webmaster@paizo.com. If you feel that the discussion has public value, there's a forum for it. You don't need to derail a thread on a separate topic to have the conversation.
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Having been a moderator elsewhere on the Interwebs, I have to say that Paizo's moderation is amazingly even-keeled and light-handed considering that the developers, designers, and even CEO are regular posters.
It's common courtesy to discuss moderation issues in private, and escalate them if you're being actively wronged.
So very true.
I have one or two posts deleted... Some because they deserved to be, some that were collateral damage, one because an hour after I posted it I thought it wasn't worth stirring up trouble so I flagged it myself.
Being hostile and dismissive when arguing your case against a thread change is not going to win you sympathy or support.
I have seen thread titles be changed back and posts undeleted because the poster has presented their case in a non petulant, and non entitled way .
Maybe if you approached this like an adult you would have got it changed back without anybody thinking less of you.
I mod at one of the larger Resident Evil communities - it's a thankless, hate filled job for which I get streams of abuse and bile, vicious images sent to my e-mail and other assorted nastiness. Honestly, the Paizo crew seems pretty solid and laid back, but that might be because the community here is a lot better and feels less entitled than my favourite band of children.
It might not have been really nessecery to remove the stupid from the thread title, but it didn't exactly hurt either, and complaining about it was only going to derail the thread.
This is an interesting subject. Because it can't be covered easily with a handbook or standard operating procedure. So much of it comes down to judgement.
More often than not I think Paizo has done an excellent job in moderating the content of their forums and done a really good job of not excessively pruning discussions. A few have been locked before I liked, and a few posts removed here or there that I wouldn't of, even some of my own posts. (I am personally not a fan of removing posts unless they veer into obscenity or threats, but that is really more of a quibble.) But having been on certain forums not to be named that really had a policy of stifling opinions that they personally did not agree with.
I've really detected none of that here. That requires a culture that permits that sort of thing that does not seem to exist.
On the internet that is an EXTREMELY rare thing to find moderation that isn't actively biased in terms of deletions/revisions/bans.
Trust me NorthStar, I've seen pathetically insecure forum mods all the time. Just for posting this second thread would of got you a decent (if not permanent) ban, much less the first one's debate.
My advice would be to take a step back and cool off for a little bit.
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Known and accepted even.Own it, TriO.
The toothbag is a jerk.
Yeah, but he's our jerk .
Steve Geddes is ok, but only when he agrees with me.
That's funny, I was just thinking "hey, Steve Geddes is an okay guy except when he agrees with Skeld."
Strange how that works out :)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I like to think of the moderation team as akin to real-life emergency services. Most people like knowing them to be there, even if you may not like having them in action in your house. There is a small subset of the population that actively seeks their attention (for whatever reason), and these people usually develop a reputation with them. If you're known as a troublemaker, you'll be assumed to continue causing trouble.
Now, you've listed some of the sites that you allegedly visit, and never had problems with. Personally, I've not been involved with them, so I can't comment directly. But let me instead put up GitP. That place makes paizo seem like an earthly paradise, but still has no shortage of people willing to play by these rules. And GitP is several orders of magnitude smaller than paizo. Take that as your yardstick, and examine the amazingly patient open-minded policy here.
Generally, I have to chime in on the sentiment expressed by several other posters: Moderation is ok, if you have problems with it, put your own house in order.
It's kind of sad that the moderators have to spend their job cleaning up posts just because people can't treat each other the way were taught to in kindergarden.
Oh well, Internet is Internet.
I think I've had a post deleted before, but I'm pretty sure it's because I used language that was inappropriate by accident :(
I'm still waiting for the OP to invoke Bill of Rights and cite the Supreme Court.
Actually I got what I wanted to say out of my system for now. I got pissed off because this wasn't the first time I've had a beef with the Mods on this site. I didn't say anything that time though. I'm basically done with this thread for now, 'cause I don't have the time to correct all the wrong opinions that I have an issue with, and because when I posted this in the first place I thought that the forum police were going to delete it right away anyway.
Actually I got what I wanted to say out of my system for now. I got pissed off because this wasn't the first time I've had a beef with the Mods on this site. I didn't say anything that time though. I'm basically done with this thread for now, 'cause I don't have the time to correct all the wrong opinions that I have an issue with, and because when I posted this in the first place I thought that the forum police were going to delete it right away anyway.
We take complaints about forum moderation, flagging and troublesome threads seriously. Constructive criticism is valuable, and any feedback that is offered is taken just as seriously. I apologize if you feel that you've been wronged by any Paizo staff. It is not any staff member's intention to cause strife to any individual in the Paizo community. If you find that a staff member or member of the community is displaying these behaviors in the future, please send an email to webmaster@paizo.com.
I thought that the forum police were going to delete it right away anyway.
That is not actually an enumerated power we hold. Carry on citizen.
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I'm basically done with this thread for now, 'cause I don't have the time to correct all the wrong opinions that I have an issue with...Lolz. If you want to correct wrong opinions, might I suggest the Off Topic forum? You'll fit in perfectly.
-Skeld
Obligatory comic.