Summoner's in Combat?


Advice


Hello Pathfinder community,

I am getting ready to start a new game as a summoner in a couple of weeks and this is my first go at this class. I am a long time D&D player and have been playing pathfinder since release, though this will be the first summoner in our gaming group.

My question is this: What is it that the actual summoner does in combat? The Eidolon is pretty beefy and I have a great idea of what to do with it. However, on paper it looks like the summoner will pretty easily be ineffectual in combat. It seems that the summoner has too few spells per day to consider casting as a primary combat function, and with d8 hit die and light armor proficiency it looks like melee would be a less than ideal place for a summoner.

What has worked for you guys and gals?

Thanks in advance.


My son plays a summoner that rides his eidolon into battle with a lance. The eidolon is built as a dragon as is a real beast in combat. The lance doesn't add a lot, but it keeps him in contact for the shield bonus and keeps him out of reach with ride-by-attack/ flyby attack.


Melee can be a less than ideal place for a summoner, but it also can actually work if you plan for it (at least, I think it's quite possible). They aren't really much worse off than a melee bard or magus, and have the benefit of a pretty sweet flanking buddy.

Still, if you're not planning on building for that, then you'll likely be relegated to firing some ranged weapons or casting. At later levels, Summoners do get a good deal of support/battlefield control type of stuff. At early levels though, you will probably still be stuck with firing a crossbow fairly often (not generally uncommon for other spellcasters either though, from what I understand).

If you're planning on melee though, you can benefit a lot from teamwork feats and you have a lot of ways to customize your eidolon so they can complement your summoner.

Since you asked for some...

Example:
I have a summoner for a PvP PbP arena here on these boards. The summoner is built with pretty high Strength and Con, and just enough Cha to pretty much take care of his spells, as that's kind of secondary to him. He's not the heaviest hitter, but he does do pretty good damage (more than the eidolon) and can take some hits too (...more than the eidolon, though his AC is lower).

The eidolon is a serpentine grab/constrict type (which doesn't hit very well, thanks to being low level, but that's another story). The main idea though is to have the eidolon constrict opponents while the summoner carves them up. At later levels, I plan on having him take Dimensional Dervish so he can warp around the battlefield for hit and run strikes while the eidolon (modeled primarily on an imperial sky dragon) keeps the enemies occupied and makes them easier to hit thanks to the grappling (they'll also, ideally, both have Outflank to help out on hitting too).

Note that this guy hasn't seen play at particularly high levels, but there's at least an example of how a Summoner can be built for combat.


My PFS Summoner is a melee w/greatax character. He does pretty well and is able to tank quite well due to armor and shield spell. AC 19 is good enough for the low levels. I use a wand of shield first round of combat then draw my axe as I advance towards the enemy, sending my eidolon in first (its a pounce build). Between myself and the eidolon we do decent enough damage so combine with the high AC on both of us we don't actually get hit very often (low number of attacks coming at us due to dead enemy and those attacks don't hit very often).

Building a combat oriented summoner is just a matter of allocating attribute points for it. How effective those combat stats probably involves the willingness to dump certain stats (my half orc summoner is 18,13,14,7,7,16). Trait use makes up for quite a bit of the weakness of the above build, as does using the sacred tattoo alt racial trait. Wand use really makes this character shine, and I'm a bit spoiled on the easy availability that level 1 wands have in PFS.


This is far better than any advice I could offer.

Lantern Lodge

Ive posted this countless times and enjoy what people think of so im gonna post it again because why not. Except the cheese, love the cheese, be one with the cheese.

-Race / Class-
Half - Elf / Summoner (Synthesist), Paladin 2, Monk 1

-Stats with out Eidolon (25 point buy)-
STR 07 (+6 item)(-6 age) = 07
DEX 07 (+6 item)(-6 age) = 07
CON 10 (-6 age) = 04
INT 13 (+3 age) = 16
WIS 17 (+6 item)(+3 age) = 26
CHA 18 (+2 racial)(+3 age)(+5 leveling)(+6 item) = 34

-Saves with out Eidolon-
Fort = 28
Reflex = 25
Will = 40

AC = 36
Touch = 23
Flat - Foot = 28

-Stats with Eidolon-
STR 29
DEX 28
CON 13
INT 16
WIS 26
CHA 34

-Saves with Eidolon-
Fort = 32
Reflex = 37
Will = 44

AC = 72 (76 with combat expertise)
Touch = 31
Flat - Foot = 58

-Eidolon Abilities-
Base - Darkvision, Evasion, Improved Evasion, Devotion, Multiattack
Form - Biped - claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs)
Claws (x2)
limbs (arms) (x2)
Immunity (acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic)
Spell Resistance (28)
Flight Su (30ft)
Improved Natural Armor (8)
Improved Damage (claws)

-Class / Feat Progression-
M 01 Dodge, Skill Focus Perception, Toughness
P O2
P 03 Combat Expertise
S 04
S 05 Extra Evolution
S 06
S 07 Combat Reflexes
S 08
S 09 Extra Evolution
S 10
S 11 Vigilant Eidolon
S 12
S 13 Extra Evolution
S 14
S 15 (insert feat here)
S 16
S 17 (insert feat here)
S 18
S 19 Extra Evolution
S 20

-Gear-
Bracers of Armor
Ring of Protection
Ring of Forcefangs
Cloak of Resistance
Amulet of Natural Armor
Headband of Mental Prowess (wis and cha)
Belt of Physical Might (str and dex)

High saves, immunities to all spell damage but positive / negative and force, and spell resistance.


^ Ya know, I knew before I looked that that's what you were posting too. I'm not sure why I clicked :P

To expand on notabot's talk of melee-built summoners (and my own, I suppose), I'm actually somewhat of the opinion that Summoners are kind of meant to tend towards martial battle, much like most of the divine casters.

They admittedly don't have the single target or personal buffing that a lot of divine casters do, but their list has some good ones (haste and heroism, for example), and they are a d8 3/4 BAB class, along with having bonuses for staying close to their eidolon.

I might dare say that, compared to other classes, they most closely emulate an arcane druid, but with a reduced spell progression and less accessible shaping (though they do sort of have that too, with Aspect and Twin Eidolon, though the latter is their capstone and the former still doesn't kick in for a pretty long while).

My 2 cp.


I used offensive wands with UMD originally was rolling to use the wands but then got to autopass without too much hassle and even before then my roll to use the wand was not that different to other people's rolls to hit the enemies AC.

Magic Missile at different caster levels can be great for taking down enemies who are so close to death it would be a waste of anyone else's time. Wands of Ill Omen or Stumble Gap can also be great fun.

Lantern Lodge

Darkwolf117 wrote:

^ Ya know, I knew before I looked that that's what you were posting too. I'm not sure why I clicked :P

Lol

Sovereign Court

What about a Dervish Dancer? Keeps AC nice and high, works well on a small summoner, and means you can be great at stealth and ranged touch attacks. Granted, it requires essentially 3 feats (Weapon Finesse, scimitar proficiency, Dervish Dance) though a Half-Elf or Human could help with that. Another option to think about.


I personally only like dervish dance on characters who get more from their attacks than weapon damage + dex bonus. 1d6+X is not particularly exciting when X is unlikely to be higher than 4 for a good while. 7.5 average damage is very low compared to a great ax build's 7 minimum damage (and 12.5 average). Heck the max damage on the dervish build is lower than the average for the 2 hd weapon build.

The dervish builds that are effective have ways to boost damage via shocking grasp,sneak attack, bardic performance (dervish dancer) ect. Without those bonuses it is going to be awfully hard to overcome the advantage that larger dice 2hd weapons have.

Small summoners have the addition problem of long feat chains to pull it off, and the 1d4 weapon. Level 5 before your able to melee effectively? Yeah, by then you will be facing things that will laugh at the puny paper cuts the half sized adventurer will be inflicting (heck, the 2.5+x damage barely gets past the weakest of DR....)

As for the AC advantage of a dex build, a +2 or +3 over a strength build is not a huge advantage for a class that gets +8 from spells (shield + mage armor/wearing armor) and has access to blur and displacement. Since it sacrifices nearly all of its ability to actually deal relevant damage, this a bit too high a price IMHO.

Scarab Sages

Psion-Psycho wrote:

Ive posted this countless times and enjoy what people think of so im gonna post it again because why not. Except the cheese, love the cheese, be one with the cheese.

-Race / Class-
Half - Elf / Summoner (Synthesist), Paladin 2, Monk 1

-Stats with out Eidolon (25 point buy)-
STR 07 (+6 item)(-6 age) = 07
DEX 07 (+6 item)(-6 age) = 07
CON 10 (-6 age) = 04
INT 13 (+3 age) = 16
WIS 17 (+6 item)(+3 age) = 26
CHA 18 (+2 racial)(+3 age)(+5 leveling)(+6 item) = 34

-Saves with out Eidolon-
Fort = 28
Reflex = 25
Will = 40

AC = 36
Touch = 23
Flat - Foot = 28

The first time he enters an anti-magic field, he's DEAD. He falls to the ground unable to move under the weight of his own gear and waits for the enemy to kill him.

Scarab Sages

notabot wrote:
I personally only like dervish dance on characters who get more from their attacks than weapon damage + dex bonus. 1d6+X is not particularly exciting when X is unlikely to be higher than 4 for a good while. 7.5 average damage is very low compared to a great ax build's 7 minimum damage (and 12.5 average). Heck the max damage on the dervish build is lower than the average for the 2 hd weapon build.

Add in Arcane Strike. With full arcane caster levels there is not reason not to take it.

Halfling Summoner with Dervish Dance. Could be interesting.


Am I missing something with arcane strike? 1 damage per 5 levels doesn't even beat the average damage gap between 1d6+4 vs 2d6+6 and the 2d6+6 guy can still take arcane strike.

Give the 2 hand guy power attack and arcane strike, and he just straight up does more (and its a respectable amount of damage for the level). The DD even with boosting feats can't even out damage a level 1 fighter despite being level 5.


I've got a half orc summoner with a boarding pike in Skull and Shackles. Since the pike has reach, I can back my eidolon up a little bit in combat if I feel the need. Having a level of bard doesn't hurt since I can always spend a round cranking up a fighting sea shanty to inspire my freebooters to greater and more effective violence.

Scarab Sages

notabot wrote:

Am I missing something with arcane strike? 1 damage per 5 levels doesn't even beat the average damage gap between 1d6+4 vs 2d6+6 and the 2d6+6 guy can still take arcane strike.

Give the 2 hand guy power attack and arcane strike, and he just straight up does more (and its a respectable amount of damage for the level). The DD even with boosting feats can't even out damage a level 1 fighter despite being level 5.

1. Every point counts.

2. The summoner is only part of the equation. The eidolon is also hitting things. If I was matching the fighters contribution before accounting for the eidolon, that would be seriously broken.

3. If you want to build a 2-hand fighting summon with power attack + arcane strike you can. Different build idea though, one that will suffer due to 3/4 BAB.

The point is, being actively engaged the entire duration of a fight rather than casting 1 or 2 spells before fading into the background.


Darkwolf117 wrote:
...you can benefit a lot from teamwork feats and you have a lot of ways to customize your eidolon so they can complement your summoner.

party buffing is next, with UMD & ranged weapons close behind. Reach weapon if you prefer STR to DEX. I think the CMB for disarm, trip, bull rush get underlooked, but maybe that is because my eidolon has reach and threatens alot of area (see teamwork feats).

Though it weakens the eido*, you can level dip into any area you want (bigger spell lists, bardic music, sneak attack, domain powers, martial weapons) etc.) Not my play-style, but I think it would be cool for a cleric to have a religious 'avatar', a rogue to bring their own flanker, a flutist to bring a percussionist, etc.
*yeah not really a downside until you multi-class three levels imho :)


Artanthos wrote:
notabot wrote:

Am I missing something with arcane strike? 1 damage per 5 levels doesn't even beat the average damage gap between 1d6+4 vs 2d6+6 and the 2d6+6 guy can still take arcane strike.

Give the 2 hand guy power attack and arcane strike, and he just straight up does more (and its a respectable amount of damage for the level). The DD even with boosting feats can't even out damage a level 1 fighter despite being level 5.

1. Every point counts.

2. The summoner is only part of the equation. The eidolon is also hitting things. If I was matching the fighters contribution before accounting for the eidolon, that would be seriously broken.

3. If you want to build a 2-hand fighting summon with power attack + arcane strike you can. Different build idea though, one that will suffer due to 3/4 BAB.

The point is, being actively engaged the entire duration of a fight rather than casting 1 or 2 spells before fading into the background.

1: Sure, every point counts, but this is a build that is starting out at a deficit to 2hd fighting, and taking arcane strike does not address this deficiency since both builds have the same opportunity to take it (and the 2hd summoner doesn't have the double feat tax and has easier access to it as a result)

2: Both summoners have eidolons. The summoner with DD is level 5 and does less than the level 1 2 handed summoner. The level 1 2 handed summoner does close enough damage at level 1 to be considered to be considered a primary damage dealer at level 1. The level 5 DD doesn't even do enough damage to be considered a primary damage dealer for a party 4 levels below that of the summoner. In other words it is pathetic damage output. 3 feats in, 2 skill points, and a tricky stat array all for the ability to be out damaged by a lvl 1 warrior with non elite stat array: level 1 warrior with 15 strength after racial and power attack does 1d8+2str+2PA with a random d8 weapon (and it could instead use a 2hd weapon and do more than that).

3: Both summoner builds have the 3/4 BAB. 3/4 BAB is not crippling as people think it is. A summoner has a good array of spells that can make up the +5 over 20 levels they are missing out on. For starters they come with a free flanking buddy. They can knock enemies prone with grease. They can cast haste at level 4.

If the point is being actively engaged in the fighting, don't play a character whose melee contribution is exceeded by peasant with a stick 4 or more levels lower than you.

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