I'm thinking about starting a campaign based around a war between goblin(oids) and kobolds (and other reptilian creatures who may be working under a dragon) where the PCs get to pick a side before the game starts, and they all play one of the two races. They would be limited to JUST goblins or kobolds, because the entire point would be that you're making these ordinarily laughable races into world-shattering badasses. Campaign's gonna be called War of the Weenies.
So, I was looking at the goblin and kobold PC stats, and I see NO reason to pick kobolds over goblins. Goblins are just... better. So here's my debate.
Should I:
A: Leave kobolds alone. The fact that they're working under the stronger overlord (a dragon) should be appealing enough to play a kobold. Also, regardless of whether or not I alter kobolds, they WILL be made to play kobolds LIKE kobolds. That is, they have traps, and they have numbers, and they'll be expected to think like a kobold and use them. The goblin side of the war will be more focused around hit-and-runs and more difficult straight combat (because the kobolds have stronger allies). Both sides will be fighting adventurers from time to time.
B: Buff kobolds to make the decision between the races harder. While I DO favor the party playing goblins, and so do the numbers, I still want it to be their choice, and I don't want them to pick goblins BECAUSE they're the stronger race.
Also, I have a pretty good idea of how the escalation in opponents will work for the kobold side. Initially goblins, then stuff like orcs and hobgoblins and various other goblinoids. The goblins may also employ non-goblinoids like gnolls and the like. But what about the kobold allies? Not sure what to do to make sure they scale up to the dragons and wyverns and such properly. I only have bestiary 1 to work off of, but I can use the SRD for other stuff. Also, it's likely that both sides will have commander creatures with PC class levels.
|
Kobolds are smarter than goblins. It may not be evident in their stats, but look at the difference between kobold society (traditionally Lawful Evil) and goblin society (traditionally Neutral Evil). Goblins, while cruel and clever, are no match for a kobold's craftiness. Based on CR, the kobolds should also outnumber the goblins as well. A CR 2 encounter of kobold warriors would be six of them, while goblins are likely to only have four, maybe five.
Another thing that might favour the kobolds is one of the goblin's biggest weaknesses: fear of writing. Kobolds will have a lot more arcane power on their side, and frankly, I do not envy the goblins when a powerful kobold wizard shows up. Kobolds also have a strong affinity for draconic bloodline sorcerers, while with goblins you're likely to get only adepts, clerics, and the odd alchemist.
Kobolds are smarter than goblins. It may not be evident in their stats, but look at the difference between kobold society (traditionally Lawful Evil) and goblin society (traditionally Neutral Evil). Goblins, while cruel and clever, are no match for a kobold's craftiness. Based on CR, the kobolds should also outnumber the goblins as well. A CR 2 encounter of kobold warriors would be six of them, while goblins are likely to only have four, maybe five.
Another thing that might favour the kobolds is one of the goblin's biggest weaknesses: fear of writing. Kobolds will have a lot more arcane power on their side, and frankly, I do not envy the goblins when a powerful kobold wizard shows up. Kobolds also have a strong affinity for draconic bloodline sorcerers, while with goblins you're likely to get only adepts, clerics, and the odd alchemist.
the writing thing is a good point. i'm not sure how to go about using that as a deterring factor for the players when making their choice.... i don't want to outright say NO to classes that rely on it, but that should be a thing that affects their decision.
|
|
I don't think it's really an issue to say no. No goblin wizards is a pretty standard thing. If someone REALLY wants to go about making a wizard who doesn't read, he would have to make an archetype that made use of pictures, and probably didn't make use of Scribe Scroll. Another option is hiding his writing from other goblins.
Writing as a goblin is serious. Goblins who write have been branded, had their house burned down, and been banished from their tribe to die alone.
Suggested bonus racial traits to balance out the Kobold (and stay thematically consistent):
Poison Use (1 RP) - No risk of poisoning self when applying poison to equipment (weapons and traps)
Swarming (1 RP) - Two creatures with this trait can share a single space, and are considered "flanking" adjacent opponents when so doing.This brings them up to 7 RP, so you still have as much as 3 RP to play with, if you want to really even them out. However, I'd say they're now legitimately "competitive".
i don't have the ARG though. :c
|
|
Poison Use and Swarming make them into legitimate threats, but I think the magic issue made them competitive with goblins enough anyway.Denying player characters access to legit classes based on fluff-text isn't the best solution I've heard.
I would be just as quick to deny most Shoanti wizards. It's just not something the culture does. Goblins who write are banished or killed, possibly being tortured first.
Bringing the Kobold up to the level of a normal race is a far better solution than bringing the goblin down to a sub-standard race.
No one's bringing goblins down. Goblins are like that already. What's the point of playing a goblin if you're going to change what it means to be a goblin?
You could always allow PC's to use these- Koldemar for Kobolds, Boggleand High Goblin for goblins. You can also use them to make some nastier NPC's to beef up one side or the other. A squad of Koldomar Apocolypse Fighters would be a nasty sight.
Creative Director
|
Kobolds are smarter than goblins.
That's not really true.
By a raw look at their stats, goblins and koblds are, on average, equally smart and equally wise. Kobolds have the advantage of having better charisma scores, which means that they tend to be better leaders and less nasty in habit. Don't mistake crazy shenanigans for idiocy—neither race has a penalty to Intelligence.
Goblins can have arcane spellcasters—they just use methods other than writing to keep track of their magic, or more often are bards or sorcerers (although with their Charisma penalty, they're not as good at that still).
From a raw physical standpoint, the average goblin IS better than the average kobold; that's why goblin warriors are CR 1/3 and kobold warriors are CR 1/4.
The BIG advantages that kobolds should have over goblins is their numbers (there should generally be more kobolds than goblins in any one respective tribe) and their knack for building traps. Goblins are better just charging in to fight, especially if they're mounted. Kobolds are better when they can dig in and defend a place they've had time to trap and reinforce.
AKA: Goblins are better at offensive combat, kobolds are better at defensive combat.
let's keep in mind, this is ONLY PC kobolds that would be receiving any kind of buff. the reason i'm considering buffing them is that PCs are supposed to be exceptional among their race, and i'm pretty sure the stat block for them in the bestiary is meant for NPC kobolds. that being said, how about this:
The -4 to STR is too harsh. A -2 still makes sense, but doesn't gimp them anywhere NEAR as bad in melee. Eating a -4 basically means they'll always have to be ranged or take weapon finesse, and only use finessable weapons if they want to do much of anything in melee. Their carrying capacity will be shot to hell too. So how about reducing the STR penalty to -2?
This still leaves them behind the goblin, though.
So, how about a +2 in one of these stats:
DEX, to match the goblins.
CHA, because of their natural talent as sorcerers.
INT, to reflect their trapmaking ability.
Honestly, I wouldn't change the stats like you suggest in that last post as that takes to much away from playing a kolbold. You might as well play something else. Instead how about these 2 changes? Firstly, the goblin is 10rp and the kobold is 5. Give the kolbold a higher point buy, say 20 to the goblins 15 or 25 to the goblins 20. That way the kolbold still has the weaknesses that exemplify the race as well as the ability to smooth them out a bit better. Next have the kolbolds level up faster, say lvl 6 to the goblins 4 and make sure the players understand this. Now they get to chose the more 'powerful' goblins or the better statted and faster leveling kolbolds. That should make it a much harder chioce.
I envy your players for getting to play in such a campain as I would LOVE to play in something like that! And yes, I would play goblins regardless as the thought of an alchemist chucking rocket bombs into a crowd of kolbold mooks would be to much to pass up!
Honestly, I wouldn't change the stats like you suggest in that last post as that takes to much away from playing a kolbold. You might as well play something else. Instead how about these 2 changes? Firstly, the goblin is 10rp and the kobold is 5. Give the kolbold a higher point buy, say 20 to the goblins 15 or 25 to the goblins 20. That way the kolbold still has the weaknesses that exemplify the race as well as the ability to smooth them out a bit better. Next have the kolbolds level up faster, say lvl 6 to the goblins 4 and make sure the players understand this. Now they get to chose the more 'powerful' goblins or the better statted and faster leveling kolbolds. That should make it a much harder chioce.
I envy your players for getting to play in such a campain as I would LOVE to play in something like that! And yes, I would play goblins regardless as the thought of an alchemist chucking rocket bombs into a crowd of kolbold mooks would be to much to pass up!
Class levels >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any racial disadvantage.
Change the PC kobold's stats to match the goblin's. IE, +4 to something, -2 to two other things. IF you don't want to give a +4, do the standard +2, +2, -2.
Goblins have better racial features aside from the stats than kobolds anyway, so it STILL won't be unbalanced.
I really don't know why kobolds are so lol-pathetic in PF. I assume the person who wrote their entry in the bestiary had a PC pull Pun Pun on him in an actual game or something, and this was his idea of "revenge".
Use the ARG to bring them up to 10 points.
This is a really neat idea. I would keep both races as they are.
The Kobolds benefit from traps, so should be better at ambushing and defending home turf. Whilst the Goblins would be better attacking.
If you are looking to increase the challenge, from the Goblinoid family the power scale is Goblin, Hobgoblin and Bugbear. There are also Barghests and Worgs to consider. This could give Barghest's as the commanders, a formal military structure ran by Hobgoblins with elite units of Bugbears and Worg-riding Goblin cavalry. Overall it would look like quite a conventional army.
Reptilian humanoids are Kobold, Lizardfolk and Troglodyte. Lizardfolk, to me, don't sit well with this type of conflict; leaving Kobold and Troglodytes. Neither of these is a leader, though troglodytes could make useful shock tropps - similar to the bugbears. You mentioned a dragon as the leader, a Dark Naga or Spirit Naga could be an alternative. Whichever way, this side could make use of all sorts of reptilian creatures, such as Basilisks, wyvern and the like instead of a formal cavalry. This side would be more irregular/guerilla like in outlook.