It's Ex OR Su, says so in the title of the bit about Damage Reduction in the Universal Monster Rules.
"Damage Reduction (Ex or Su)"
I can't get my rulebook PDFs to load right now or I'd give you a page number, that's pulled from the SRD and it says so on the PRD too.
Can anyone tell where in the rules it says wheather DR's are EX, SU, etc.
As far as I know, it doesn't say anywhere.
For 3.5 D&D, DR was Su if whatever overcame the DR was negated by an antimagic field. So Alignment-based DR, DR/Magic, and DR/Epic (which all require magical weapons to overcome) were supernatural.
If the required property doesn't go away in an antimagic field, then its Ex. Specific types of damage (piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning), or a weapon special material (adamantine, silver, cold iron) were extraordinary forms of damage reduction.
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CRB says Su as Zahir stated. Also, under the Magic Items you will find Adamantine gives DR, which is considered an Ex. So the answer is, it depends, but mostly it is a Su ability (unless otherwise noted).
Additionally on page 562:
"Sometimes damage reduction represents instant
healing. Sometimes it represents the creature’s tough
hide or body. In either case, other characters can see that
conventional attacks won’t work."
Instant healing = Su (or high tech Ex). Tough Hide = Ex.
My personal problem with the DR write-up in the CRB is that it first says any magic weapon overcomes it, then you need some special + to overcome a specific kind (such as alignment). So /- (which applies to all items, but is overcome by a simple +1 weapon) is easier to overcome than /alignment (which has an already weakened state against something, but takes a +5 weapon to overcome). This just seems kind of silly to me.
My personal problem with the DR write-up in the CRB is that it first says any magic weapon overcomes it, then you need some special + to overcome a specific kind (such as alignment). So /- (which applies to all items, but is overcome by a simple +1 weapon) is easier to overcome than /alignment (which has an already weakened state against something, but takes a +5 weapon to overcome). This just seems kind of silly to me.
You are reading something wrong. Probably this:
Overcoming DR: Damage reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment.
That is not saying magic weapons overcome all DR. That is just giving a list of properties that overcome some sort of DR.
DR/- is not overcome by magic weapons. It isn't overcome by any weapon at all (unless that particular attack ignores damage reduction.) DR/- is the hardest damage reduction to overcome.
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Huh?
Ok, what language is that and where can I learn it.
DR, as far as pathfinder is concerned, is simple.
DR/blank. Blank is what overcomes it, be it nothing (-) or silver. Undead have DR/Blungening or DR/Slashing for some of the more common undead (Skeletons and Zombies)
I remember DR being a little more difficult in 3.5, but I don't play that now...
So my only confusion would be DR vs DR. That is Damage Reduction vs. Damage Resistance. Is both using the DR acronym? Does MM and element spells always bypass physical Damage Reduction?
I think I have it straight sometimes, then someone pulls the rug out...
So my only confusion would be DR vs DR. That is Damage Reduction vs. Damage Resistance. Is both using the DR acronym? Does MM and element spells always bypass physical Damage Reduction?
There is only one DR, and that is Damage Reduction. Are you perhaps thinking of Energy Resistance?
By the rules as they are written in the book, all spells automatically overcome damage reduction.
Though there has been some discussion, and possible future errata, that spells dealing physical damage (piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning) do not automatically overcome damage reduction. But at the moment, that is not an actual rule.
Edit: After a bit of looking, I have found 2 cases of damage resistance. The Fey Damage Resistance and the Moon-Touched Damage Resistance (both under Advanced Traits). Those should more properly be labeled Damage Reduction, as that is what they actually are.
Actually, DR/Silver or Cold Iron was usually Su, and Adamantine and x/-was Ex. All the rest were Su.
that's because Silver and Cold Iron were usually aspects of magical creatures, and Adamantine was a result of being incredibly hard, usually a construct.
==Aelryinth
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My personal problem with the DR write-up in the CRB is that it first says any magic weapon overcomes it, then you need some special + to overcome a specific kind (such as alignment). So /- (which applies to all items, but is overcome by a simple +1 weapon) is easier to overcome than /alignment (which has an already weakened state against something, but takes a +5 weapon to overcome). This just seems kind of silly to me.You are reading something wrong. Probably this:
Overcoming DR: Damage reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment.That is not saying magic weapons overcome all DR. That is just giving a list of properties that overcome some sort of DR.
DR/- is not overcome by magic weapons. It isn't overcome by any weapon at all (unless that particular attack ignores damage reduction.) DR/- is the hardest damage reduction to overcome.
Yes, see, this is precisely my problem. It starts out saying "Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction." and then says "Damage reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment."
So my question is: How does a non-magic bludgeon weapon overcome /Bludgeon but a +1 magic slash NOT? According to how I read it, the +1 slash would ignore it just like it were bludgeoning damage or any sort of energy effect (isn't there magical energy on a +1 sword?). So I may be confused, but that is because I am only trying to see the whole thing logically. And it totally is not written logically.
X/- is the strongest? I don't know if I agree. So why would X/anything else require a higher plus weapon to break through? And since X/- is not on the table, apparently even a +5 weapon will not work to reduce it? Despite a guy with a torch being able to ignore it? Simply doesn't make sense that a EPIC LEVEL MAGIC WEAPON wouldn't do anything to X/- DR but a torch would.
I undertand your thinking; X/- has no holes in it and cannot be ignored. X/cold iron and silver has a small hole a +3 or better weapon can sneak through. X/addy has a small hole a +4 weapon can pierce. X/alignment has a small bit that allows +5 weapons to get through (ignore). X/- has no holes and lets no weapons through. /bludgeon etc... are as strong as X/- against anything other than their hole: which, again is where it falls down in my mind, since obviously that is a pretty BIG HOLE compared to /addy and /alignment. Add that there is no +1 or +2 weapon on the table, and the preceeding "any +1 of higher enhancement bonus" makes no sense. Right? Why mention +1 ammo either? Since it doesn't overcome anything simply because of it's +1 or +2 quality?
But hey, the 1d6 flame damage on the sword still gets through perfectly fine...wtf? That is the part that makes no real sense to me, since magic = energy in my mind.
Unless you read the X/silver, cold iron, addy, alignment as being STRONGER than X/- all the mentions of +1 or higher make no sense. Thus my confusion. Why mention +1 if it is really +3? And why would STRONG magic like a +5 weapon not count as energy but a torch does? It all falls down when you start to think about it. If you read it as X/- is the weakest, and any +1 item overcomes it, and a X/silver, et al is STRONGER and can only be overcome by specific plussed weapons, it makes more sense to me.
In other words, a licanthrope is not harmed by +1 or +2 weapons (instant healing), but a +3 gets to him. This makes THEM tougher to harm than a monster that simply has X/- whom you only need a +1 weapon to harm. And that seems more correct to me... even if it appears to be a strange interpretation of RAW.
Really it needs to have some common sense on the GM side of things.
Overcoming DR: Damage reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment.
"May be overcome by" does not mean "will be overcomed by". It means "Might possible be overcome by". That sentence is NOT saying magical (+1) weapons overcome all damage reduction. That sentence is saying damage reduction MIGHT be overcome by magic weapons.
According to how I read it, the +1 slash would ignore it just like it were bludgeoning damage or any sort of energy effect (isn't there magical energy on a +1 sword?).
No, actually, there is not. A +1 sword has absolutely no energy damage on it whatsoever. Energy damage is fire, cold, sonic, acid, and electricity. Thats what the rules consider energy damage. (You might be able to include positive and negative energy in there as well. They both do say "energy", but usually aren't included in feats and other abilities that mention energy damage.)
And why would STRONG magic like a +5 weapon not count as energy but a torch does?
A torch does energy damage (fire damage). A +5 weapon does not do energy damage, it does physical damage. Damage reduction only provides protection from physical damage.
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The order of strength of DR in my mind would be:
Weakest
X/bludgeon, slash or piercing (+1 needed)
X/- (+1 needed, though perhaps I would make it +2)
X/silver or cold iron (+3 needed)
X/Adamantine (+4 needed)
X/alignment (+5 needed)
Strongest
Now, since RAW state a +1 or better overcomes DR... but does not list types that are overcome on the "common forms of DR" chart, I think it makes sense. Magic = energy attack. And that is my case. SR also doesn't count against magic weapon plusses.
Also, what good is a 4th level Monk's Ki strike, Mage's Faithful Hound spell (which is not even +1 so WTF DR does IT reduce?), Bloodline Claws, or any other thing mentioned in the CRB that starts out as a +1 magic weapon but mentions overcoming DR - if it works the way you have stated?
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Overcoming DR: Damage reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment."May be overcome by" does not mean "will be overcomed by". It means "Might possible be overcome by". That sentence is NOT saying magical (+1) weapons overcome all damage reduction. That sentence is saying damage reduction MIGHT be overcome by magic weapons.
According to how I read it, the +1 slash would ignore it just like it were bludgeoning damage or any sort of energy effect (isn't there magical energy on a +1 sword?).No, actually, there is not. A +1 sword has absolutely no energy damage on it whatsoever. Energy damage is fire, cold, sonic, acid, and electricity. Thats what the rules consider energy damage. (You might be able to include positive and negative energy in there as well. They both do say "energy", but usually aren't included in feats and other abilities that mention energy damage.)
And why would STRONG magic like a +5 weapon not count as energy but a torch does?A torch does energy damage (fire damage). A +5 weapon does not do energy damage, it does physical damage. Damage reduction only provides protection from physical damage.
Um. +1 weapons GLOW with MAGICAL ENERGY... so while I agree with you that they are now energy types (other than generic magic energy), I disagree that there is no energy present. There is energy (something) doing 1 extra point of damage, right? Again, it comes down to WTF good are +1 magic enhancements (or the +0 hound spell) against DR if it works they way you claim? And why are they mentioned REPEATEDLY if it works the way you claim? Not only is the DR ignoring mentioned REPEATEDLY in the descriptions of things that give only +1 (or +0 in the case of the hound spell), they are mentioned as ignoring DR in the Overcoming DR section as well.
BUT by the Rules it is NOT an ENERGY attack or damage.
Um. +1 weapons GLOW with MAGICAL ENERGY... so while I agree with you that they are now energy types (other than generic magic energy), I disagree that there is no energy present. There is energy (something) doing 1 extra point of damage, right? Again, it comes down to WTF good are +1 magic enhancements (or the +0 hound spell) against DR if it works they way you claim? And why are they mentioned REPEATEDLY if it works the way you claim?
A +1 weapon is enchanted, yes. But it has no energy damage at all. It is not an energy attack. The only use a +1 weapon (or +2 weapon, for that matter) has against damage reduction is to overcome DR/magic.
If +1 weapons automatically overcome DR, why the hell would there be a DR/magic in the first place?
And here. A quote from James Jacobs, one of the developers of Pathfinder.
Magic weapons do not overcome slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing. Those types of damage reduction DO require you to have the right types of weapons; magic won't help.
Magic weapons (that is, a +1 or better weapon) does not overcome DR/bludgeoning, DR/slashing, or DR/piercing. A magic weapon does not automatically overcome all DR.
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We have a CLASSIC IRS DEFINITION discussion here:
"Overcoming DR: Damage reduction may be overcome by"
What does the word MAY mean? If it means, as you interpret (and I will grant, a large portion of the world does also), that DR can possibly on a good day and if all the stars align to match qualifiers be overcome by.... then the mentions of +1 weapons overcoming it make absolutely no sense as there are no +1, or even +2 weapons listed which overcome any DR. Nor do spells, SUs and EXs granting +1 ever overcome DR, despite mentioning overcoming DR.
If on the other hand MAY means what I say, we get:
DR IS overcome by special materials (listed after the DR), magic weapons (with a +1 or higher bonus), certain types of weapons, aligned weapons.
I think, logically, given the evidence of +1's in various places mentioning overcoming DR, that my interpretation is MORE CORRECT than yours (and no offense to JJ, but I think they either need to re-write this to say +3 everywhere or otherwise not mention how magic overcomes DR in all the +1 bonus spells)
What are you trying to argue? That every magic weapon overcomes every type of DR?
There's a table for that which proves you wrong.
DR Type Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent
Cold iron / silver +3
Adamantine* +4
Alignment-based +5
It MAY overcome DR, IF its enhancement bonus is high enough. Notice in there, there is no mention whatsoever of DR/-. It cannot be overcome by magic weapons.
Damage Reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment.
That bolded bit is simply a quick definition of what a magic weapon IS, not a rule taht states "A +1 weapon overcomes all DR".
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What are you trying to argue? That every magic weapon overcomes every type of DR?
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That bolded bit is simply a quick definition of what a magic weapon IS, not a rule taht states "A +1 weapon overcomes all DR".
No, I am arguing that X/- is the WEAKEST form of DR, and is overcome by ANY magic weapon with a +1 or higher. More powerful DRs include X/silver, et al on the chart and require a higher + magic weapon to overcome.
Why am I arguing this? Because there are half a dozen spells that mention overcoming DR and only grant a +1. So if a +1 doesn't overcome ANY DR, what good is it? Unless the contention is X/magic is the only DR overcome with +1 and +2 weapons? But X/magic is even overcome by things only treated as magic (non-plussed, the Hound Spell for instance) items as well. So that contention is dubious.
Also, I don't get how a RELIC infused with MAGICAL ENERGY which does 5 extra points of magic energy damage to everything it hits (though I understand it is not RAW "energy") would not harm a 15/- but a normal non-magic torch would.
I think I already explained what order I think the strengths of DR are based on the chart and afforementioned verbage. X/- and X/pierce, bludgeon, slash being the weakest.
The contention certainly is that x/magic is overcome with any magic weapon. Thats why its x/MAGIC.
No, I am arguing that X/- is the WEAKEST form of DR, and is overcome by ANY magic weapon with a +1 or higher. More powerful DRs include X/silver, et al on the chart and require a higher + magic weapon to overcome.
Where is the basis for this argument? It's not on the chart, and there's absolutely nowhere in the rulebook (other than general "these things overcome all DR" stuff) that says what overcomes DR/-. NOTHING specific overcomes DR/-.
Why am I arguing this? Because there are half a dozen spells that mention overcoming DR and only grant a +1. So if a +1 doesn't overcome ANY DR, what good is it? Unless the contention is X/magic is the only DR overcome with +1 and +2 weapons? But X/magic is even overcome by things only treated as magic (non-plussed, the Hound Spell for instance) items as well. So that contention is dubious.
What are you talking about? Spells overcome DR naturally, not any specific kind. Says it right there:
Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even non-magical fire) ignore damage reduction.
It doesn't matter if they only do 1 damage or 100, spells ignore ALL DR.
But DR/Magic is the only DR overcome with +1/+2 weapons. The Mage's Faithful Hound spell is treated as a magic weapon for the purposes of damage reduction. No +. He just overcomes DR/Magic, that's it.
Also, I don't get how a RELIC infused with MAGICAL ENERGY which does 5 extra points of magic energy damage to everything it hits (though I understand it is not RAW "energy") would not harm a 15/- but a normal non-magic torch would.
Because sometimes the rules have little hiccups in them. This is one of those times.
I think I already explained what order I think the strengths of DR are based on the chart and afforementioned verbage. X/- and X/pierce, bludgeon, slash being the weakest.
You may have explained why you think it is so. But that does not make it so.
My GM calls DR/- "god DR", just because he hates saying "DR dash"
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I always just call it "DR/Nada" or "DR/Naught" or just "DR/Lolhavefunguys".
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No, I am arguing that X/- is the WEAKEST form of DR, and is overcome by ANY magic weapon with a +1 or higher. More powerful DRs include X/silver, et al on the chart and require a higher + magic weapon to overcome.Where is the basis for this argument? It's not on the chart, and there's absolutely nowhere in the rulebook (other than general "these things overcome all DR" stuff) that says what overcomes DR/-. NOTHING specific overcomes DR/-.
But DR/Magic is the only DR overcome with +1/+2 weapons. The Mage's Faithful Hound spell is treated as a magic weapon for the purposes of damage reduction. No +. He just overcomes DR/Magic, that's it.
Because sometimes the rules have little hiccups in them. This is one of those times.
You may have explained why you think it is so. But that does not make it so.
The basis for the argument was the "definition of what a magic item is" part of the "overcoming DR" section and the use of the word MAY. It included references to spells which used +s lower than +3 and mentioned overcoming DR.
I did look to see if I could find evidence for the contention that DR/- is stronger. Guess what? It is there. Penetrating shot Feat(s). X/- drop the damage by 5, so it is stronger, not weaker than the other DRs. So I conceed the argument.
It totally works the way you all have stated. No magic +s affect anything other than X/magic until +3. And X/- is "god DR" repelling everything except normal torches and vials of oil.
Doesn't have to make sense that fire gets through but epic level weapons glowing with power don't, because that is RAW.
Glad you finally see the light maouse.
Yup, it's the opposite here. DR works on everything BUT what comes after the slash.
I actually didn't know it used to be different TBH.
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Yup, it's the opposite here. DR works on everything BUT what comes after the slash.
I actually didn't know it used to be different TBH.
LOL. at some point I think it was... but I might have been wrong then too. Didn't play a lot of D&D in those days. Mostly ICE, P&P, Cyberpunk, V&V, Gurps, Ancient Futures, and other games... (I'm old, but at least I can still learn new tricks)
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Me too, because that has bothered me since it was re-written between 2-4 or whatever where it used to be DR only worked against what it said after the slash.Glad you finally see the light maouse.
I'm not sure what the 2-4 means. DR has worked basically the same way in the 3e family (3.0, 3.5, PF). The only real differences are that 3.0 had things like DR 5/+3 (required a +3 or better weapon), and that PF added the chart for high plus magical items working for some material and alignment DRs.
If anyone else is having any problems with the DR rules, this D&D 3.5 entry has a longer description with some examples that might be helpful. It doesn't go into the specifics of the PF table for +3/+4/+5 weapons, but up to that point it does a pretty good job.
A simple way to have looked at it is if DR/- was overcome by any Magic Weapon then the Fighter's Level 19 Ability would worthless against your average foe at that level.
DR/- is the Second Strongest with DR/Epic being the Strongest.
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If you go with back to 3.5 damage reduction:
Piercing, bludgeoning, slashing, adamantine, and "-" are (Ex)
Magic, Silver, Cold Iron, Evil/Good/Lawful/Chaotic, and Epic are (Su)
Though there has been some discussion, and possible future errata, that spells dealing physical damage (piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning) do not automatically overcome damage reduction. But at the moment, that is not an actual rule.
It's not errata, it's just a clarification:
FAQ - How does DR interact with magical effects that deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage?
A simple way to have looked at it is if DR/- was overcome by any Magic Weapon then the Fighter's Level 19 Ability would worthless against your average foe at that level.
DR/- is the Second Strongest with DR/Epic being the Strongest.
Easier to get Epic enhancement bonus then bypassing DR which cannot be bypassed. (+4 Bane weapon works nicely).
Dr x/- is the toughest, followed by DR x/Epic. Note that Penetrate Damage Reduction can punch through 10 pts of DR Epic, but only 5 of x/-.
==Aelryinth
Sorry forgot that Pathfinder changed that...
I think 3.x had it to where Epic had to be By-Passed by a base +6 not a modified +6...
Sorry forgot that Pathfinder changed that...
I think 3.x had it to where Epic had to be By-Passed by a base +6 not a modified +6...
Even in 3.5, DR/epic was easier to overcome than DR/-.
Note, by the way, that there is no such thing in Pathfinder as "a base +6".
Exactly. 3.5 it was the Base not Modified that was required to be +6. Though that might have been Errata'd out or something...
Also Axe of the Dwarvish Lords and a few other Artifacts have a +6 IIRC...
Also Axe of the Dwarvish Lords and a few other Artifacts have a +6 IIRC...
Oh, you are right, I didn't realize that about artifacts. I have to retract my "no +6 in Pathfinder" statement. :)
Really I think having DR/Epic only negated by a Base +6 makes the Terrasque more frightening and could make an Artifact Collecting Campaign/AP interesting.
If you want to consider why a torch (fire damage) gets through against DR/epic but a +5 weapon does not, it's not the blunt force of the torch that is hurting the monster it is the flame burning it. And of course if the epic monster has a bit of energy resistance to fire that won't do anything to it either. I hope that helps.
Only the the true enhancement bonus Counts for overcoming those special materials does it? Not the effective enhancement bonus.
Therefore a +3 dagger could overcome DR 15/Silver, while a +2 Firy dagger couldn't. Or am I wrong here?
The Special Material & Alignment is only the Base Enchantment, Yes.
The idea was for it to represent Good & Evil destroying each other.
And your suggestion means a Paladin would have to wield an Unholy Weapon to easily By-Pass the Devils DR before getting that +5 Weapon.
Fixed it. Frakking Phone.
Oh I agree. But really how can one get DR/Alignment without being a Cleric, Paladin, Inquisitor, Oracle, or an Outsider?