Invisibility and bumping into others....


Rules Questions

Sczarni

My current campaign has three shadowdancer characters, all 12 HD currently trying not to die in Scarwall. They each picked up a suit of armor with greater shadow. So while in stealth they have ridiculous mods of +34 to +43 (one has a ring of chameleon power as well). The highest one can take ten (10th lvl rogue with Skill Mastery Adv Talent). So he is at 53 always. Now, Scarwall is basically a place in mostly shadow, and they really don't ever go more than 10' from a shadow area so they can pretty much walk through. The Dragon and a few others will give them trouble (in that they can see them), but they haven't gotten there yet (just basically walked past the orcs and gargoyles though).

Anyway, is there any way short of getting some sort of vision that lets them see each other that will let them not bump into each other all the time? And what happens when three people try to move into the same square, and they are all invisible? Do they just "feel a force keeping them out"? Does the first person and second person get bumped 5' and another 5' respectively? And even after that, they can't see each other still, right?

(incidentally, they took a left (as is proper dungeon etiquite) and ended up in the Danse Macabre area where they all managed to save, then proceeded to slay it... an amazing victory this early on... let's hope their luck holds out for at least five more encounters...)


Telepathic bonds would let them silently coordinate. Message spells would do the same but there's a risk that someone nearby might make the Perception check to hear them.

Getting someone to cast permanent see invisibility on them might help.

If they try to move into someone's square, I'd say they just made an overrun attempt, and since the other person doesn't know they're there they can't let them out of the way. A little bit of losing their actions due to "you just took an overrun" and they'll figure out how to coordinate. ;)


Hiding doesn't make you invisible. See Invisibility doesn't reveal hidden creatures. If they don't have a way to tell where each other is, they are likely to run into one another from time to time. At the very least that's going to make some noise. As GM it's really up to you what happens when they bump. The bumper might get knocked back, the bumped might get knocked forward. Either way it's going to require new stealth checks for both people with probably some penalties.


tonyz wrote:
Getting someone to cast permanent see invisibility on them might help.

Aside from the problems Simon pointed out...

See invisibility has a range of personal, so unless they pick up several levels of spell casting this isn't an option.


as a note the bonus from shadow armor and ring of chameleon power don't stack

The Exchange

bbangerter wrote:
tonyz wrote:
Getting someone to cast permanent see invisibility on them might help.

Aside from the problems Simon pointed out...

See invisibility has a range of personal, so unless they pick up several levels of spell casting this isn't an option.

Or a rank of UMD.

Sczarni

meowstef wrote:
as a note the bonus from shadow armor and ring of chameleon power don't stack

Quote source please? As I read them, they are blurred and blended... not just blurred and more blurred. It would be like wearing cammo and then doing a blur spell. No reason I can see why they wouldn't stack. One matches you to the background, the other just blurs you.

Spoiler:

(campaign update: in case you were wondering... #1 the map of scarwall lacks a door or two in the Star Tower (you get past the Dim Door spell, after you destroy the 4 spirits and boss... then what? sit in a room with no doors except the one you came in.) Anyway, We nearly got eaten by the Nightwing, are now charged to get a replacement Curate (if we die before we do this Zon-Kuthon gets our souls, he called dibs personally when we killed the Nightwing) - we will use Lopo - and recovered the sword... and nearly got killed by the Abomination at the bottom of the lake, but ran like hell and made it out (spider climb gear FTW!). All without killing the 4 spirits and boss... so um... yeh... that was insteresting). As a side note, it did not mention in the module if the blue mist was a simple teleporter (which would not work under the Scarwall lockdown? didn't say it didn't in the module, since the star tower is older than Scarwall, etc...) or if it was a teleporter at the top of a 1500 foot pit. I ran it as a teleporter at the top of the hollow star tower, and it did not work, so we had to climb down.


Quote:
Shadow, Greater: As shadow, except it grants a +15 competence bonus on Stealth checks.
Quote:
Ring of Chameleon Power ... this provides a +10 competence bonus on her Stealth checks
Quote:
Bonus Types: Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works

if they are happy to pay for a +25 item and the dm is happy to let it get made then no problem

Sczarni

meowstef wrote:
Quote:
Shadow, Greater: As shadow, except it grants a +15 competence bonus on Stealth checks.
Quote:
Ring of Chameleon Power ... this provides a +10 competence bonus on her Stealth checks
Quote:
Bonus Types: Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works

if they are happy to pay for a +25 item and the dm is happy to let it get made then no problem

yeh, see, and I read that to mean the blur versus the cammo effect... I would agree, RAW, I am incorrect. In theory, he could make the same COST item(s) and simply change the kind of bonus (since he is a master craftsman w/ craft magic arms and armor)... A Gilly suit for instance might give a +5 circumstance bonus and count as having undergrowth to hide in...

Sczarni

In any event, back to the original question: What happens to characters who all want to move to the same square in a round when they can't see each other?

"Ending Your Movement: You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless."

Getting to the square per RAW is easy enough, and this clarifies the whole bumping into each other (non-issue now): "Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging."

I guess "Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space" covers the question... except that until initiative, everyone goes at the same time...


-_- sir a DM should consider the limits of what the world offers. Don't play the DM with a rule for every thing. Simple, explain to the character that he can either trip, bull rush ect... Whatever actions he wants to take to get into the square. As for the Character who is in the square then tough luck it is a CMB VS CMD. Make a rule up. The glory about the game is that you can make up whatever rule you deem fitting.

maouse wrote:

In any event, back to the original question: What happens to characters who all want to move to the same square in a round when they can't see each other?

"Ending Your Movement: You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless."

Getting to the square per RAW is easy enough, and this clarifies the whole bumping into each other (non-issue now): "Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging."

I guess "Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space" covers the question... except that until initiative, everyone goes at the same time...

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