Aloha!
Actually I just wanted to ask for help, but first off I want to mention that it would be amazing if someone felt like making a guide about how to effectivly raise undead. I know there are a lot of different possibilities, Juju-Oracle, Sorcerer, Bones-Oracle, Wizard and of course cleric. Usually I like checking this out myself, I love comparing builds and classes when it comes to theri ability in a certain sector (like creating an undead army). But now - I never dealt with Animate Dead spells, controll undead feats and the like before. I dont even know why that never occured in the time I play PF/D&D, but somehow it never did.
So if anyone feels like writing a guide this is something noone has dealt with before and that is yet to be covered!:D
So, actually I want to build a character that controlls an army of undead and my questions now are all these that would be answered in a guide:
What is the difference between the classes that are able to raise an undead army? which class is best there?
What would such a builds look like?
How do I create undead? What are good choices, what are bad ones? How do I get the most power out of the availible HD?
What do I have to keep in mind when playing such a charakter? How do I get the Zombie-Version of the enemy I just tore apart?
And whats really important: How viable is such a character?
I bet there's even more that would come up the more I dive into that topic, but for now those are my main questions.
I hope someone will give me some nice answers on how exactly all this works, and if I really get someone to write a guide about that - yay - great!
So, lets see where this goes, thanks in advance!
Wasum
Check out this section of Tarks Guide to Clerics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1W6dHso4mjE4WbO02366fY2YEjhP1pyR8gJvW6bq JILg/edit?hl=en&pli=1
Hey, thanks - thats already pretty helpful - especially the command undead stuff. But I'm still not sure how to use command undead at its best - and how good the cleric is compared to other classes that can get an undead army, some other questions are yet to be answered as well.
But this really gave me a good first impression:)
To get the most out of the HD/level stack Templates Bloody/Burning onto Skeletons. This gives you a Minion(s) that not only explode when they die, but come back to (un)life after an hour, and you never have to waste resources to heal them.
That's the best use for 1HD creatures like the PC races, but Fast Zombies are the way to go for the big bruisers.
Seriously, in the Game I'm running at the moment, the party can raise over 100HD worth of undead, collectively.
The best class for Undead Raising (bar none - I don't care what anybody else says!) is a Cleric with the Undead Lord Archetype! Command Undead for free. Undead Minion that has no cost to create! And like all Clerics, can start raising the Dead before any other Class.
The cleric is really good at creating and buffing undead. Look up the desecrate spell. Unhallow is harder to use for mobile adventurers rather than lair-bound BBEGs, but there are ways around that.
To get the most out of the HD/level stack Templates Bloody/Burning onto Skeletons. This gives you a Minion(s) that not only explode when they die, but come back to (un)life after an hour, and you never have to waste resources to heal them.
That's the best use for 1HD creatures like the PC races, but Fast Zombies are the way to go for the big bruisers.
The actual description of the bloody skeleton says it can't be applied to burning skeletons or multiplying skeletons, or the ones that shatter (forgot what they're called).
So yeah, that isn't supposed to work that way. DM-fiat to handwave it, of course.
What makes a cleric better than an oracle (Juju) when it comes to create an undead army?
Juju can start from level one as well, gets channel + command undead, 6HD instead of 4 per CL for animate dead, some other stuff and benefits more from cha as main stat. Am I missing something?
All the other cleric spells that hell with undead, thoughi suppose you could take some of them as your oracle spells, or have someone else cast them.
Ok, so when playing an oracle or cleric it's going to work like that:
I have Animate Dead, Create Undead and Command Undead. Me and my party kills some enemies, lets say some trolls and idk what else. Now I drag all corpses into the range of a desecrate spell and then animate them via Animate Dead. Further I use a dead mouse to cast Create Undead, get some nice creature and then try to controll it via "Command Undead" - I repeat all this until I reach my HD-limit for all these abilities.
Is there something I'm missig?
I had a lot of fun with Aasimar druid (pack lord), shade of the wild feat, human heritage (Dhampyr), and vampiric companion.You get decent necromancy and a bunch of pets as your necromancer army.
you can have a vermin companion, which is where I stopped because i got stuck on whether or not I could have swarms and use them inside my host skeletons.
To get the most out of the HD/level stack Templates Bloody/Burning onto Skeletons. This gives you a Minion(s) that not only explode when they die, but come back to (un)life after an hour, and you never have to waste resources to heal them.
That's the best use for 1HD creatures like the PC races, but Fast Zombies are the way to go for the big bruisers.The actual description of the bloody skeleton says it can't be applied to burning skeletons or multiplying skeletons, or the ones that shatter (forgot what they're called).
So yeah, that isn't supposed to work that way. DM-fiat to handwave it, of course.
I have the Bestiary open in front of me and it categorically states that the variations CAN be stacked with one another! It even goes on to say that it is possible to have a bloody burning Skeleton Champion!
So unless you have access to errata that changes this, I don't know where you are coming from.
Ok, so when playing an oracle or cleric it's going to work like that:
I have Animate Dead, Create Undead and Command Undead. Me and my party kills some enemies, lets say some trolls and idk what else. Now I drag all corpses into the range of a desecrate spell and then animate them via Animate Dead. Further I use a dead mouse to cast Create Undead, get some nice creature and then try to controll it via "Command Undead" - I repeat all this until I reach my HD-limit for all these abilities.
Is there something I'm missig?
Yup! The Undead Master Feat from Ultimate Magic! Increase your level by four for the purposes of the Animate Dead spell or Command Undead Feat.
The blood money spell might save you a bit of onxy at the cost of blood. It really fits in with the theme might even be worth having more str then the usually to use that spell more effectively.
Oh, you mean animating the dead...
Never mind.
Go Juju Oracle. You get the same spells, and the benefit of not being inherently evil. Also, a wand of Blood Money is just... wow, fantastic. Why pay for material components again? I'd take a trait for UMD just to do that.
I think the none-evil undead aspect of Juju has been errata'd. It's now Evil again!
Also, to make the most powerfull undead around is pretty spell intensive.
Really? That sucks, I just really likrd the idea of non-evil undead.
Any more advices?
this is reaching back to 3.5 so you may need gm approval but any class that gives you magic to animate and command undead as spells or special abilities coupled with leadership and undead leadership...or just undead leadership..cant remember if leadership is required first..but then you have your magic controlling undead and in addition amassing a secondary group seperate from your magic
oh and undead leadership is found in the libris mortis
Thanks - we just do not mix PF and 3.5 so that stuff are not availible:/
Can someone tell me how viable such a build is in a generally optimized party? Are these undeads strong enough to still be effective at high level game (12+)?
And - of course - more input on other stuff is always more than welcome!
I used a dhampir oracle of bones. They gain speak with dead and negative energy afinity as racial abilites, giving the flavor from the get-go.
One of their abilities is essentially the ability to channel negative energy to use the feat command undead and their final ability is a cost-free, unlimited use of animate dead. And, as these are different sources of these abilities, you can double your limits by also using the animate dead spell and picking up the empyreal bloodline via the eldritch heritage chain of feats to get sacred cistern. As long as you aren't good you can channel negative energy with this and take the actual control undead feat to have another source of undead.
And don't forget the undead mastery feat or the command undead spell. The former increases your effective CL by 4 for all of these spells and abilities, while the latter is a 2nd lvl spell (use a page of spell knowledge) that has no HD limit, lasts 1 day per lvl, and can subject any undead with a low will save to your commands. Just be warned, if you want to enslave intelligent undead, you may want to designate a few extra slots for this spell each day as they get to make a new save every day, though unintelligent undead are eager slaves.
What is the difference between the classes that are able to raise an undead army? which class is best there?
Others are giving very good answers about the nuts and bolts of raising undead, so I'll contribute by offering my opinion about the classes in general as they relate to general necromantic stuff.
Clerics are the undead generals. Through their Channeling ability, the Unhallow spell and various other means, they are just better at raising and controlling the most Hit Dice of undead creatures. Divine casters in general offer the ability to heal their undead minions through negative energy (the Inflict Wounds family of spells and Harm) spells. Evil Clerics can bolster and manipulate undead creatures in ways almost no other class is capable of at all. In terms of other dark magics, they're adequate. Their spell list is generally more oriented towards being "a Good Cleric who heals and supports a party of Good PCs", but they still get plenty of powerful and important dark magic spells. Flavor your Divinations with gore and cast a lot of Darkness spells and there ya go.
Wizards make supreme Necromancers of an entirely different sort: they can raise and control undead, yes, but what they're really good at is using the nasty "Save Or Suck/Die" spells. Finger of Death and Wail of the Banshee no longer provide you the potential to kill a foe outright as they once did in 3.5, and yes, the school of Necromancy is now outshined by Conjuration and Transmutation if you're an arcanist (and Wizards are arcanists). But! The bright side is that a Necromancer-specialized Wizard has a great deal more freedom. For starters, you don't have to choose Necromancy as your school specialization unless you really really really -- really! want those school powers. You probably don't. They just aren't all that good, compared to others. My advice: take the Foresight subschool of Divination or possibly Illusion or one of its subschools. Conjuration is just overpowered, that all there is to it. The reason? The Shift school power. In any case, the general idea of a "necromancer" Wizard is to cast nasty spells that cripple your enemies, not so much the raising of the undead, though a couple slaves won't hurt. The thing to remember while playing any sort of Wizard, though, is that you can cast any spell you want. Restricting yourself to just casting Necromancy spells is just that: a self-imposed restriction. You can describe and flavor your spells as you please, pretty much, and there's at least a few really nasty spells from all the schools.
Oracles and Sorcerers play much more like the Wizard as they generally lack the Channeling ability of actual Clerics (there's workarounds, but seldom as good and usually worse). As spontaneous casters, they benefit a great deal by having on hand spare scrolls of spells they aren't otherwise capable of casting, but the Scribe Scroll feat itself is waste (as they would only be able to create Scrolls of the few spells they do know). Spells you should actually learn should be those which rely on having a good Caster Level or maxed out save DC. Some spells can work just fine with minimum stats behind them, and those are the sorts which are perfect for your consumable items stock. Usually these are the "emergency" and highly situational utility spells, the ones handy when you need them but not the sort that are useful to crank out repeatedly throughout the day.
Witches function even more like the Necromancer Wizard except that their spell list is extremely -- extremely! -- haphazard. They're actually more like Enchanters than Necromancers, but they specialize in producing debilitating effects of most sorts. They get the Use Magic Device skill as a class skill, and you should think very very carefully before picking a Patron because most of them are just plain awful. You want a Patron that provides you spells you want to use frequently but that you don't have on your spell list from any other source. Often, you'll find that you rely on your Use Magic Device skill to access spells as much as the Sorcerer or Oracle does, and a carefully designed Staff will go a long way here. The Gravewalker archetype offers almost nothing that isn't an outright trap for you, but the Poppet is at least not a trade down. Her main problem is that the archetype overwrites her Patron spells with a lot of crap: you can raise those undead by using scrolls or a Staff, too, you know. The Witch is generally not a good choice for actually raising and controlling undead, though. The archetype costs her way too much.
Pity you can't use 3.5 materials, because there's a lot of legacy stuff that can make a Necromancer PC more "viable".
If you want an arcanist and the hugemongus spell list that comes with it, go with a Wizard and just UMD an Unhallow spell from a scroll or something, or Craft a Wondrous Item for it. If you don't mind not having theoretical access to such an enormous list of spells and you are more interested in commanding the largest number of Hit Dice of creatures possible, then go with Cleric. It really is fairly cut and dried in this case.
IMPORTANT EDIT: The spell Blood Money doesn't work if the spell you want to use it with takes longer than a round to cast... So you can't use it with, say, Create Undead or Create Greater Undead because those have cast times of 1 hour... Can still use it with Animate Dead though as the cast time for that spell is just one standard action.
Personally, I think cleric is over-emphasized as an undead army raiser. While I think Ant Tony is correct about the wizard, sorcerer, and witch classes, I believe he is undervaluing the oracle, if the right mystery or archetype is selected.
The oracle of bones I described above gets spells from the cleric spell lists, gaining animatr dead at 3 rd lvl, just like a cleric, and @ lvl20 gains this again as a SLA with no material component cost. He also has a class ability which allows him to channel as a cleric of his lvl to command undead and a bloodline (via the eldritch heritage feats) that grants the ability to channel at a -6 effective lvl. While this penalty is harsh, it is more than compensated by the undead mastery feat which allows all these sources to function at a +4 CL.
Tally that up and he can easily create and control 192 HD of skeletons and zombies and another 84 HD of other undead. And while a cleric might be able to pull out the multiple channel abilities only the oracle gains the extra source of animate dead as far as I'm aware.
Also, the crafting feats are being undervalued by Aunt Tony as well, as not having a spell on your list doesn't preclude you from creating items which require that spell. In fact the DC to create a given item is only increased by "+5 for every prerequisite the caster does not meet." (Direct quote)
This means that your oracle with the craft wondrous item feat can make a page of spell knowledge for any spell, arcane or divine, that they wish to use but do not have access to on their spell list. And they have more spells per day to make use of them, as well as being able to make a broader swath of magic items than any other feat grants.
Stack this with the oracle of bones' ability to cause bleed dmg with any of the inflict spells, or any other spell which deals negative energy dmg, and the spell command undead (with no HD limit), and you actually end up with a bit of a bruiser. A feat-intensive one, to be sure, but a bruiser none-the-less.
But I notice that none of us have answered your question about how effective the undead themselves are.
The basic skeletons and zombies will not be of too much use by themselves into later lvls, as their lack of feats and abilities makes them kind of weak. Fast zombies and bloody skeletons are better for their toughness and fast healing, but even they are going to be best utilized in mobs which can deal automatic dmg. If you can (and your DM allows it) try raising juju zombies and skeletal champions. These archetypes can also be stacked with others such as the bloody skeleton and plague zombie, among others you can research on paizo or d20pfsrd and are intelligent which means that they don't just gain HD when advancing, but also potentially feats and class lvls.
Other undead to consider via channeling and other sources are the wraiths, spectres, and shadows. These undead have some nice damage types and effects ranging from ability dmg to lvl drain that will give any unprepared opponent a run for their lives. Furthermore, as incorporeal creatures nonmagical attacks can't harm them and magical ones only deal 1/2 dmg, greatly extending their HP. Used in mobs they can be a party killer.
My personal preference in the shadow, as it's low HD makes it easy to control, it lacks the sunlight powerlessness weakness of the other two, and it can create it's own spawn. Just visit death row every so often and you can quickly have an army.
Some other good choices, if you can find and control them include Raveners (undead dragons), Awakened Demilichs (more spellcasting power), Tzitzimitl (transform positive energy into negative, and some other tricks), and Ghosts (any class and lvl you want and a variety of special attacks). Many of these can stand on their own, even at higher lvl, but in even a small group magnify each other (and you) to incredible degrees.
The oracle of bones I described above gets spells from the cleric spell lists, gaining animatr dead at 3 rd lvl, just like a cleric, and @ lvl20 gains this again as a SLA with no material component cost. He also has a class ability which allows him to channel as a cleric of his lvl to command undead and a bloodline (via the eldritch heritage feats) that grants the ability to channel at a -6 effective lvl. While this penalty is harsh, it is more than compensated by the undead mastery feat which allows all these sources to function at a +4 CL.
I would be incredibly surprised if a GM allowed you to "double dip" the Channeling ability like that. As far as I know, the bloodline wouldn't stack with the Mystery at all. The Mystery would overlap it completely.
Also, the crafting feats are being undervalued by Aunt Tony as well, as not having a spell on your list doesn't preclude you from creating items which require that spell.
That's for things like Craft Arms and Wondrous Items. Pretty sure that Potions, Scrolls, Wands and Staffs do require you to have the spell cast into the item to create it (I've heard of this allowing you to cast the spell into the item from another item, and I'm fairly sure that you can have a different character cast the spell for you, but you still need enough castings for each day you spend Crafting the item... which can get expensive fast!). I was specifically talking about the Scribe Scroll feat in my previous post.
Stack this with the oracle of bones' ability to cause bleed dmg with any of the inflict spells, or any other spell which deals negative energy dmg, and the spell command undead (with no HD limit), and you actually end up with a bit of a bruiser. A feat-intensive one, to be sure, but a bruiser none-the-less
Not sure I understand this bit. Do you mean that Bleed damage counts as the same type of damage as the effect which caused it? Because I was under the impression that Bleed doesn't affect creatures that... don't bleed. Which would definitely include the undead especially skeletons.
But I notice that none of us have answered your question about how effective the undead themselves are.
Controlling very powerful undead through a spell is a bit of a double-edged sword. It's functionally just like Dominate Person/Monster, and definitely taxing on your available spells per day. Losing control of an awakened Demilich is a great way to find yourself being raised and controlled... Potentially rewarding? Yes. Dangerous? Hells yeah!
In any case, this sort of control is categorically unlike that granted to the creator of an undead creature. The creator is given automatic, effortless and permanent command over his newly-created undead -- not so the Command Undead Feat which functions as the spell (albeit at a scaling save DC).
So no matter what, the size of your "army" is limited by your Character (and usually Caster) Level. If you just want to pop out some ghouls to cause mischief in the local town, you probably don't even need to control them yourself. Maybe just mention to them in passing that the town is unprotected... The purposes you have in mind are important.
Now, with a very amiable GM, here's how I would do it...
Gain control of a Lich or other spawn-creating powerful undead, the more the merrier, but of course you are well advised to ensure that you can reliably control them. These powerful generals then create and command their own retinue of undead minions... And so on. This heirarchical arrangement would allow you to indirectly command a far greater number of undead creatures than you could ever hope to directly control through your own powers, limited in HD as you all are.
And, indeed, this is how NPC villains do it.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Keep in mind that you may be able to form free-willing alliances with intelligent undead (such as Vampires and Liches) who will have their own goals that may align with yours. Such beings are actually characters -- and should be treated as such. I imagine your GM will view this sort of thing as skirting the boundaries of the Leadership Feat, as others have alluded, but if your GM is ok with you raising a literal army of undead slaves, he's unlikely to object to the formality of the Feat.
At the risk of creating unnecessary debate for this thread...
I would be incredibly surprised if a GM allowed you to "double dip" the Channeling ability like that. As far as I know, the bloodline wouldn't stack with the Mystery at all. The Mystery would overlap it completely.
Actually, the mystery does not allow you to actually channel energy at all, as it only allows the controll of undead. And the forums have agreed that the bloodline ability would overlap any other channel ability as it is a different source of the ability. Would you argue that a sorcerer with that bloodline ability who took lvls in cleric couldn't use one of these abilities?
That's for things like Craft Arms and Wondrous Items. Pretty sure that Potions, Scrolls, Wands and Staffs do require you to have the spell cast into the item to create it.
There is no specific exception to the +5 DC for not meeting the prerequisites for creating any if those items in the CRB. I can understand that the CRB requires the caster to know and cast the spells in question, but these are just two potentially unmet prerequisites (a +10 crafting DC). While it would be understandable for a DM to rule creation as you have stated it, unless you can direct me to some errata which confirms that view my group will continue to craft in this manner. (Note that there are actual exemptions listed to certain general crafting rulles). That said, if you can direct me to such information I would be glad to recant.
Not sure I understand this bit. Do you mean that Bleed damage counts as the same type of damage as the effect which caused it? Because I was under the impression that Bleed doesn't affect creatures that... don't bleed.
I think you misunderstand me here. You are correct that bleed dmg won't affect undead, as they indeed do not bleed (so far as I'm aware, though there may be one obscure exception to this somewhere). However, the ability I reference allows you to tag bleed dmg on to any negative energy effect that deals dmg, which stacks with itself in subsequent rounds and bypasses all DR until healed. This form of attack, combined with the might of an undead army, is what makes the character a bruiser.
Controlling very powerful undead through a spell is a bit of a double-edged sword. It's functionally just like Dominate Person/Monster, and definitely taxing on your available spells per day. Losing control of an awakened Demilich is a great way to find yourself being raised and controlled... Potentially rewarding? Yes. Dangerous? Hells yeah!
In any case, this sort of control is categorically unlike that granted to the creator of an undead creature. The creator is given automatic, effortless and permanent command over his newly-created undead -- not so the Command Undead Feat which functions as the spell (albeit at a scaling save DC).
Very true, controlling very powerful undead can be very rewarding, but very dangerous. Intelligent undead gain a save vs control every day at the save DC of the effect used to control them. A slight workaround is to have enough extra uses available to re-enslave them twice a day, before one of the effects can wear off. Just order them to fail their saves before casting the effect.
The downsides are dispelling effects, which will probably make your entire squad go rogue at once, and that you will have to designate two uses of any given ability each day to maintaining control of your intelligent undead captains.
As for the control granted to undead creators, in the case of unintelligent undead, Aunt Tony is correct, it is unquestioned and indefinite up to the HD limit of animate dead , if using that spell. If using Create Undead or Create Greater Undead, however, control is not assured. It specifically states
Created undead are not automatically under the control of their animator. If you are capable of commanding undead, you may attempt to command the undead creature as it forms.
Therefore, for any undead created in this manner you will have to use the Command Undead feat or spell, and risk all the benefits and drawbacks of that effect.
To recap, a couple of intelligent undead such as lichs, etc can be a major asset (and some of themmay even be able to control additional undead for you!), but it is also a major risk. Evaluate what you are trying to do with them, as the sooner you are unburdened by controlling them, the better. Undead that can beget more undead are among the most powerful for their ability to multiply your power, but that same ability makes them more dangerous when you loose control over them.
a couple of intelligent undead such as lichs, etc can be a major asset (and some of themmay even be able to control additional undead for you!), but it is also a major risk. Evaluate what you are trying to do with them, as the sooner you are unburdened by controlling them, the better. Undead that can beget more undead are among the most powerful for their ability to multiply your power, but that same ability makes them more dangerous when you loose control over them.
I favor enslaving liches because you can command them to hand you their phylactery... When you own anything valuable, it's often wise to get some insurance! ;D
While it would be understandable for a DM to rule creation as you have stated it
I really can't find any definitive errata one way or the other. The maddening problem is how absurd the original wording is. I.e., is "requirement" to be seen a requirement or is it merely a recommendation? I've heard people insist in both directions -- but given my own experiences with overly jealous DMs, I can only advise players to just assume that their DM is hostile to item crafting until he says otherwise.
Yes, it's really more of a problem of "bad DMs", and yes, you live and learn, but the problem wouldn't be nearly so prevalent if the rules weren't so pants-on-head.
You'll be stretching things pretty thin with your DM's good graces as it is, raising a few hundred HD of undead. Best court his favor with caution and prudence.