Vulnerable - when is it applied?

[stuart haffenden]

If a monster is vulnerable to, say, fire is the +50% damage added first, before saving throws and resistance?

I think yes, but my DM ruled no.

I empowered a fireball for 63 damaged, which should have hit the monster for 94. The monster saved [47] and had resist fire 10. So I make it taking 37 damage.

However my DM decided that he could choose when it applied and said it saved vs the 63, making 31, then resisted 10 for 21, and then added the 50% from vulnerable for a total of 30.

His reasoning was that the rules don't say when vulnerability is applied.

Was he right?

[VRMH]

He's the GM, so he's right.

Usually bonuses and penalties are applied in whatever order is the most favourable to the creature they apply to, but I can't quote you "chapter and verse" on that.

[cwslyclgh]

vulnerability only affects the damage that the creature actually takes, so your GM handled it correctly.

[Shadowborn]

I'm not finding any immediate rulings on it, but normally when resolving attacks, all damage is calculated first then the appropriate defenses are applied

The Empower Spell feat also increases damage by 50% and it is calculated before any resistances are applied.

[stuart haffenden]

I would have thought that creatures with vulnerability would immediately take the +50%. You can't assume that any creature will have resistance or that it will pass it's save.

If fireball does 42 damage, any vulnerable creature within should be taking 63.

After that, you can start saving and applying resistances.

[Shfish]

Ummm no. Always you apply resistences/protections first. Then you do vulnerabilites. This has been a hot issue for some since 3.5. In those days the decision was that resistences and protections come first. If the fireball only does 42 points of damage, and I have resist 30, then I only take 12..if I'm vulnerable then I take 18. The specific wording of the spell Energy Resistence you are failing to read is "that damage is reduced by X points before being applied to the creature's hit points." Vulnerability is applied when something actually *takes* damage from the energy..if you are protected from the fire to begin with, you take no damage!.

Now honestly..at most you might see a 1 point difference in damage if a creatures saves prior to the vulnerablitiy being applied so is a non is.
X/2*1.5 vs (X*1.5)/2 should still come out the same..the only reason it *might* go differently is when there is a rounding rule.

As pathfinder is built by roughly the majority of the main authors of 3.5, and the wording of the spells suggest what they previously stated, I would safely go with the original decisions.

[Shfish]

But yes order should be: Damage is rolled; Save is rolled; Amount of damage that should apply is calculated; Resistences/protections are applied; adjusted damage is now applied; if vulnerable then they take the 50% extra.

[stuart haffenden]

Any RAW to support your personal views?

[Shfish]

Umm yeah it's called the I don't know...whole dang book...if I cast a spell with a saving throw, you don't take any damage until the save is rolled...it's called basic order of operations...once a save is rolled I know whether I am taking full or 1/2...now that I am subjected to the injury, my resistance kicks in as per the wording of the spell before damage is applied...if no damage is applied then my body hasn't been vulnerable to anything...if my resistances are not enough now I have taken injury and if vulnerable take extra damage.

You are stuck on the view of the player who was told your not as much damage and not really seeing the wordings of anything...if it helps any have a math teacher sit down with you and go over order of operations...

[Brotato]

Do you have any RAW, stuart, for why your fireball is magically doing 50% more damage before it ever comes into contact with your target's flesh?

The saving throw is a Reflex save, representing the target's ability to get behind cover or otherwise minimize direct exposure to your spell through quick reflexes.

The resist fire absorbs the first 10 points of damage that would be dealt to the creature, as per the spell energy resistance. Energy Resistance reads, in part "...that damage is reduced by 10 points before being applied to the creature's hit points." These 10 points of damage never come into contact with the creature's flesh. There is no way for vulnerability to apply to damage it never takes.

The remainder of the fire damage hurts the creature more than it would normally, due to the creature's vulnerability to fire.

It's all a logical thought process, and all within RAW.

[jerrys]

i guess i agree with Brotato - the resist fire is like a layer of ...something... that is between the guy and the damage, that absorbs a "size 10 fire". If somebody throws 9 points of fire at him that gets soaked up before it even gets to him. If someone throws 12 then only 2 gets to him, which hurts him more because he's inherently vulnerable to it (so he takes 3).

[Wyrmholez]

cwslyclgh wrote:

vulnerability only affects the damage that the creature actually takes, so your GM handled it correctly.

I'm on this boat. 50 point fire ball - Save for 1/2 - 10 Fire resist = 15 +50% for 22.5 damage.

Being vulnerable to fire doesn't make the fireball bigger or meaner it means you take +50% damage, and you don't take damage until you've applied all the factors.

At least that makes the most sense to me.