Point buy dilemma...

[rangerjeff]

PFS, so 20 point, Witch, Elf. It's SOOOO damn hard to decide sometimes...

Option 1:
7/15/14/20/8/7 +1 Dex at 4

Option 2:
7/16/14/19/10/7 +1 Int at 4

and variants of option 2 are to leave WIS at 8 and raise CHA or STR to 8

for skills I'm going Intimidate, UMD, Perception (got Class from Osirion Tomb Raider), Spellcraft, a couple knowledges

basically, take the extra init, AC, dex/reflex, wisdom/will in exchange for the extra 1st level spell and +1 to DC's (not just spells but also Hexes, remember)? And just from levels 1-3 at that, since at 4 they'd basically be the same except option 2 gives me +2 Wis overall...

or given rebuild rules I could game it a little, play option 1 through 1st level, then go option 2 for 2nd and 3rd levels...

Other point buys?

[Chris P. Bacon]

I think I like Option 2 better. It's hard to say whether to raise Wis or Cha. The Cha will help with Intimidate and UMD, obviously. You may not need that much Wisdom in Perception if your familiar is any good at it. However, I hate failing a Will save. Tough call.

[Salindurthas]

Do you need UMD as a Witch?
Sure, you don't have the most expansive spell list so your party might feel they lack some key spells, but if it isn't on your list, then someone else might as well use that magic device (either since the spell is on their list or they haven't dumped charisma).

I was thinking about whether you should increase your strength or not. I have been playing a rogue with 8 Strength and I'm having trouble physically holding all my equipment without going into medium load (which penalises all my dex skills).
A Witch probably doesn't mind being in medium load and needs less equipment anyway, so it is possible you can cope just fine with 7 strength. Hey, you don't even need to carry your "spellbook" because it has its own legs!

[Byrdology]

Why don't you be a little more conservative?

Str: 8
Dex:17 (+2),
Con: 13 (-2), +1 @lvl 4
Int: 18 (+2)
Wis: 10
Cha: 8

[rangerjeff]

I was thinking UMD for my familiar when I get to 7th and take improved. And it's a class skill, so even with -2 from CHA by 7th level it'll be +8. And yeah, 7 Strength is severely limiting, though not so much for a witch. But the difference between 7 and 8 is not so much to be worth 2 build points I'm thinking.

Dropping CON to 12 would get me another 5 build points... could do something like...?

Edit: @ Byrdology, I know there's debate on this, and yes, getting to 20 is very expensive, 7 points for a +1 over 18, but especially with a witch, DC's are crucial, so getting to 20 at least by 4 is not something I want to give up. But, it's something to consider once I hit 2nd level. I'd probably drop DEX to 16 and do the 8th and 12th level stat gains in Int, and boost Wis or Cha by 2.

[Salindurthas]

Oh right, the Wand+Familiar method to gain action economy. I'd forgotten about that.

You say the DCs are crucial. I assume you are planning to spam hexes and want high Int for high Hex DCs?
That does indeed sound like a good idea.

I can't really figure out why you need such high Dex, though.

[Adamantine Dragon]

Pathfinder society allows characters with three stats at 8 or below?

Wow, I had no idea.

[Salindurthas]

I haven't played at Pathfinder Society myself. I thought they used 20 point buy and I was unaware of any restrictions to this.

Are we missing something, AD?

[P33J]

Only one of your stats pre racial bonuses can be as low as 7. 8s are fair game

[Adamantine Dragon]

No, I just never played PFS.

In general as a GM when I see a point buy of three stats of 8 or below I consider that to be on the verge of min-maxing.

I suppose that's too harsh.

For my own point buy characters I generally only allow one stat to be as low as 8. Unless I have some specific concept that requires especially low scores in more than one stat, but that's really rare, maybe once or twice ever.

[Salindurthas]

P33J. Where can I find the Official PFS rulings? Normally my google-fu is fairly strong, but I was unable to find it.
Anyway, with the information you provided, looks like this witch point-buy needs some adjustment!

(Adamantine, I wouldn't say you are too harsh. We can all have our preferences for limits on min-maxing. I have played in several games using set stat arrays (something like 16-14-13-12-10-8) which obviously have an exact amount of min-maxing involved.)

[Akinra]

You can download the PFS Guide to Organized Play for free from Paizo here : Linkification

[rangerjeff]

Yeah, PFS Guide to Organized Play says:

Pathfinder Society uses the “purchase” system for
generating ability scores, as explained on pages 15–16 of the
Core Rulebook. Pathfinder Society uses the “High Fantasy”
choice of 20 points, allowing you to build a solid PC at 1st
level. Please remember that no score can be reduced below
7 or raised above 18. Racial modifiers are applied after the
points are spent, so it is possible to begin play with a low
ability score of 5 and a high ability score of 20, depending
on your race choice. A character can not be younger than
the minimum age listed on Table 7–1 of the Core Rulebook,
or listed on Table 5–1 of the Advanced Race Guide, and must
be younger than venerable, as listed on Table 7–2 of the
Core Rulebook and Table 5–4 of the Advanced Race Guide. A
character that ages past venerable, for whatever reason, dies
of old age and is removed from the campaign. Characters
do not alter their ability scores as a result of this choice.

So, no rule about more than one at 7, or anything like that. Yes, I'm min-maxing, but that too comes at a price. I will suck at Str and Cha and in exchange only be marginally better at Int or Dex/Con... so, fair trade I'd say.

[Cold Napalm]

Generally, the penalty for dumping a lot of stats to 7/8 is that you die in PFS....

[rangerjeff]

Yeah, it's risky, but if I survive, potentially brilliant.

I don't need strength. I carry no weapons, not even ranged. And soon enough I'll have climb and swim options for those situations.
I don't need Cha, let others be the face, though I do kind of want Intimidate and UMD.
And I don't need Wis, I'm a high Will save class, though Wis is probably the most valuable of these 3 for the save, Percept, and Sense Motive.

Con, for survival and Fort saves. Played tonight and with my 14 Con and so 8 hp was dropped to exactly 0 and able to save myself with a move.

Dex, for Init, AC, Reflex, and for a couple of Dex skills... Init, AC, and Reflex are great. Better than Con?, maybe not, but at least as important, and with an Elf, easier to get.

Int... I don't really need to comment, do I?

When a class so strongly favors a few stats over the rest, how can you argue against stat dumping/min-maxing?

[Cold Napalm]

Stat dumping isn't min/maxing. Min/maxing = MINIMIZE weakness, maximize strengths. Dumping a bunch of stats down to 7/8 isn't minimizing weaknesses...your creating big giant gaping holes. It can be optimizing depending on what roles your want your characters to take on however.

Personally, I'd go for 20 int and pump everything into MORE int.

For an elf...

7 str, 16 dex, 12 con, 20 int, 11 wis, 7 cha. Yeah yeah...giant gapping holes :P .

[rangerjeff]

yeah, that was one of my options... but 14 Con was something I felt mandatory... so I'll go option 1 through 1st and then option 2.

And, AD, if it makes you feel better, my 2nd PFS character, a cleric of Erastil, is 14/16/14/12/14/10 at present. Before racial mod (+2 Dex) no stat over 14, none under 10. And he's a GREAT character to play!

And, the biggest weakness of 7's is stat drains, from attacks, disease, poison, etc. Serious issue to keep in mind, for sure.

[Kahn Zordlon]

rangerjeff wrote:

yeah, that was one of my options... but 14 Con was something I felt mandatory... so I'll go option 1 through 1st and then option 2.

And, AD, if it makes you feel better, my 2nd PFS character, a cleric of Erastil, is 14/16/14/12/14/10 at present. Before racial mod (+2 Dex) no stat over 14, none under 10. And he's a GREAT character to play!

And, the biggest weakness of 7's is stat drains, from attacks, disease, poison, etc. Serious issue to keep in mind, for sure.

Solid stats. My current character is the last one I'm nerfing any of my stats. I thought I learned my lesson when I played a rogue with 8 str. My last wizard/ eldrich knight was pretty balanced, but this character is an alchemist visectionist with a 8 cha, that is definately is a hinderance to overcome. I'm thinking, build a relatively well-rounded character next time an spend loot on making my strengths better, rather than overcoming my weaknesses. Good luck.

[Adamantine Dragon]

The detective bard I am building currently for carrion crown with a 20 point buy currently has the following stats:

Str - 12
Dex - 16
Con - 11
Int - 12
Wis - 12
Cha - 16

That's after racial modifiers.

I might adjust a bit, but that's what I currently have.