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I know this has come up in the past, but the chronicle for 4-12: The Refuge of Time demonstrates it has not been addressed. There is a Cloak of Resistance +1 listed for sub-tier 10-11. Why?
It's not like you could conceivably be 10th level and not has sufficient fame to buy a 1,000 gp item, so putting it on the chronicle is pointless. Worse, it is confusing, because a rational person will assume there must be a reason for it to appear, muddying the item access waters. Even if you assume this particular item is a typo, season 4 chronicles are littered with items that have no practical reason for being there.
How to fix it?
I'd suggest keeping a substantial chunk of newly published items closed, and then granted access on chronicles. But I can appreciate that might seem a bit drastic to some. So why not assume that everyone has at least 3 fame per level, and multiply 3 x ((the lowest character level able to play a sub-tier)( - 1)), and drop any items that do not meet the gp threshold for that fame level? I really can't see a downside, or any reason for a 1,000gp item to appear in sub-tier 10-11.
Chronicles should matter and this seems to be some very low hanging fruit indeed.
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Yeah there's not much to say. It IS stupid. Given that the only restriction in buying items is the about of GP and fame you have. What exactly is the point? I can understand unique items or trinkets put in for roleplaying value.
You are right, it is confusing. It leads to one of the most common new PFS player mistakes thinking that you can only get items on a chronicle sheet.
Personally, I could see with more boons. I can see a minor boon for finishing a 4 part scenario if you did all four parts.
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So, we can't make the assumption that a 10th level character has earned 9 fame, or has gotten access to a cloak of resistance + 1 or higher by the time they receive this chronicle?
As I understand it (and I'm happy to be corrected if I'm mistaken), it has nothing to do with such an assumption (an assumption which, obviously, is a fair one to make).
It appears to be the effect of an internal rule on campaign paperwork that items "found during the adventure" which aren't on the "always available" list need to be listed on the Chronicle, even if doing so makes no real logical sense. "Found during the adventure" does not necessarily equate to "things you'd want to buy", after all.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Remember folks, chronicle sheets aren't produced by starting with a blank page and thinking "Okay, what items do we want to grant access to?" They're produced by simply listing out any and all gear that the NPCs had that isn't Always Available.
They didn't put a +1 cloak on that chronicle sheet because they thought you'd want it, they put it there because you find it on the bad guy's body.
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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And like Sior mentioned, it is possible (if not very probable) that a character could get to 10th lvl and not have 9 fame. I heard of one character who joined his faction solely so that he could sabotage their faction missions. In such a case, the items on the chronicle sheets become very important to such a character.
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Remember folks, chronicle sheets aren't produced by starting with a blank page and thinking "Okay, what items do we want to grant access to?" They're produced by simply listing out any and all gear that the NPCs had that isn't Always Available.
They didn't put a +1 cloak on that chronicle sheet because they thought you'd want it, they put it there because you find it on the bad guy's body.
Understood. The point is that doing that is, well, pointless. :)
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With all of these threads, there seems to be 1 thing constantly overlooked...pre-gens playing through these same scenarios.
A player sits with a pre-gen and plan to apply it to a brand new player. This first level player gets 500 gp, XP, PP as normal. They ALSO get access to the items on the chronicle. Said player has not more than 2 PP, so no, they do not have the requisite fame to purchase such simple items as a +1 cloak of resistance.
I know it seems pointless for players of level to play in the scenario, but they're not the only ones playing these scenarios. They try to put everything that's not always available on the respective chronicles so that they provide the same thing to all players.
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A player sits with a pre-gen and plan to apply it to a brand new player. This first level player gets 500 gp, XP, PP as normal. They ALSO get access to the items on the chronicle. Said player has not more than 2 PP, so no, they do not have the requisite fame to purchase such simple items as a +1 cloak of resistance.
I brought that up a while back, but campaign leadership is apparently under the impression that balance-wise, you're almost always shooting yourself in the foot by picking up items on a chronicle sheet under those circumstances instead of going through the obligatory normal gear/masterwork/magic weapon+armor development.
Since they know more about game balance than I do, I'm going to take their word for it. Which means that's actually an argument against having those items on there, because new players might think buying them first is a good strategy.
Edit: The link to that particular clarification took me a few minutes to dig up: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7vu?applying-pregen-chronicles#26
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There is SOME value to them being there, if only that IF you play a pregen AND choose to apply the pregen chronicle to a brand new PC, they could buy that item before other.
Because of that possibility, and the generic rules that if it's in the adventure, and not always available, it should be on a chronicle sheet.
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A player sits with a pre-gen and plan to apply it to a brand new player. This first level player gets 500 gp, XP, PP as normal. They ALSO get access to the items on the chronicle. Said player has not more than 2 PP, so no, they do not have the requisite fame to purchase such simple items as a +1 cloak of resistance.I brought that up a while back, but campaign leadership is apparently under the impression that balance-wise, you're almost always shooting yourself in the foot by picking up items on a chronicle sheet under those circumstances instead of going through the obligatory normal gear/masterwork/magic weapon+armor development.
Since they know more about game balance than I do, I'm going to take their word for it. Which means that's actually an argument against having those items on there, because new players might think buying them first is a good strategy.
Edit: The link to that particular clarification took me a few minutes to dig up: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7vu?applying-pregen-chronicles#26
Actually, it sounds like they're saying if you buy some of the more expensive items on the 7-11 chronicle can cripple a character. Buying a +2 or higher weapon/armor as soon as you gain cash for it can have a last effect, as you're going to be a one shot wonder. However, something like a 1k cloak isn't going to be as offsetting, as normally you'd gain access to it sometime around level 2.5~3 anyways.
So it might be an argument against having the extra expensive items on the pre-gen's chronicle, but an item that can already be found on tier 1-5 chronicles...not so much.
Developer
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I know this has come up in the past, but the chronicle for 4-12: The Refuge of Time demonstrates it has not been addressed. There is a Cloak of Resistance +1 listed for sub-tier 10-11. Why?
...
Chronicles should matter and this seems to be some very low hanging fruit indeed.
An item doesn't appear on a Chronicle sheet unless it appears in the adventure, and what gear NPCs have is often determined by what they can afford, even at high levels. So while it may seem arbitrary, we don't just pick a random assortment of equipment to throw onto Chronicle sheets. If an NPC has an item that isn't always available, it's on the Chronicle sheet (unless it's an item we specifically don't want PCs to have access to).
I agree that Chronicle sheets should matter; in fact in our newest design documents given to all authors (and used as an in-house Bible for the development team), the inclusion of unique boons, new magic items, and other things that can make Chronicle sheets more than just another chunk of XP, gold, and Prestige Points is listed as a goal of every scenario. While we've still had a few that didn't have a new magic item, boon, or other unique element, most in Season 4 have.
There are some aspects of what go on Chronicle sheets that I'm willing to change 5-1/2 years into the campaign and others that I'm not. If we ever reboot the campaign (of which we currently have no plans), we may revisit how we determine what gear PCs gain access to and how the whole process works. But making that dramatic a change to the mechanics of the campaign isn't something we're likely to do.
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And like Sior mentioned, it is possible (if not very probable) that a character could get to 10th lvl and not have 9 fame. I heard of one character who joined his faction solely so that he could sabotage their faction missions. In such a case, the items on the chronicle sheets become very important to such a character.
I saw a level 11 at gencon 2011 with 5 fame, so its possible
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And like Sior mentioned, it is possible (if not very probable) that a character could get to 10th lvl and not have 9 fame. I heard of one character who joined his faction solely so that he could sabotage their faction missions. In such a case, the items on the chronicle sheets become very important to such a character.I saw a level 11 at gencon 2011 with 5 fame, so its possible
... are you sure they weren't selling their fame instead of their prestige?
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It was a barb with no social skills and in his home area he was the only one of the faction. The only faction missions he suceeded in were the ones that he stumbled on.I saw a level 11 at gencon 2011 with 5 fame...Worst. Pathfinder. EVAR.
;-)
I have seen a barbarian close to that bad. However I think he at least got 30% of possible fame. This was mostly because he was a horrible player with a bad build. I saw him tpk like 2 out of 6 parties due to him running away if he enemies put up resistance in combat, and taking his early teenage son's character with him. Season 4 was a big flee fest for him.
5 fame at 11 also means he failed virtually all his primary missions. That is I bet impossible to do. I suspect it is an error. First steps gives you more fame than that.
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It was a barb with no social skills and in his home area he was the only one of the faction. The only faction missions he suceeded in were the ones that he stumbled on.I saw a level 11 at gencon 2011 with 5 fame...Worst. Pathfinder. EVAR.
;-)
I have seen a barbarian close to that bad. However I think he at least got 30% of possible fame. This was mostly because he was a horrible player with a bad build. I saw him tpk like 2 out of 6 parties due to him running away if he enemies put up resistance in combat, and taking his early teenage son's character with him. Season 4 was a big flee fest for him.
5 fame at 11 also means he failed virtually all his primary missions. That is I bet impossible to do. I suspect it is an error. First steps gives you more fame than that.
Before GenCon 2011 you didn't get fame for succeeding at a primary mission...only for your faction missions.
EDIT: And First Steps just came out late in the month prior to it, so his character would not have had the opportunity for that.
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It was a barb with no social skills and in his home area he was the only one of the faction. The only faction missions he suceeded in were the ones that he stumbled on.I saw a level 11 at gencon 2011 with 5 fame...Worst. Pathfinder. EVAR.
;-)
I have seen a barbarian close to that bad. However I think he at least got 30% of possible fame. This was mostly because he was a horrible player with a bad build. I saw him tpk like 2 out of 6 parties due to him running away if he enemies put up resistance in combat, and taking his early teenage son's character with him. Season 4 was a big flee fest for him.
5 fame at 11 also means he failed virtually all his primary missions. That is I bet impossible to do. I suspect it is an error. First steps gives you more fame than that.
Before GenCon 2011 you didn't get fame for succeeding at a primary mission...only for your faction missions.
EDIT: And First Steps just came out late in the month prior to it, so his character would not have had the opportunity for that.
Well if he never asks for help, and only played the older seasons then I guess I could see that. The barbarian I saw thought it was cheating to ask for help, which I guess I could see from his perspective, as you were quite likely to be killed from playing with him. Although I only played with him a couple times, I learned to exclude him and his son from the party in my head, as that party of 5 was actually a party of 3 when you needed it the most.
You think he would learn to put some points in diplomacy though, especially given that barbarians have some skill points. Or at least change factions to something he could complete. But then again, some people enjoy beating a square peg through a round hole.
Pretty funny!
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a proposed fix.
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Give the PC a discount on buying items on chronicles.
Even just 5% and suddenly people would start paying attention to what is on chronicles again.Just a thought...
That seems like a promising idea...
ABSOLUTELY! Every time I see silly stuff on the chronicle sheet I think exactly the same thing.
Also, I can see the 'logic' that what you see is what you came across, whether it makes sense or not. Unfortunately that's only logical from a GM/Game Designer POV.Now from the players' POV: "Yeah! Lot's of work and blood but we did it and I'm stoked! What cool stuff do I now have access to buy?... +1 Cloak? Seriously? Well, maybe it costs less... no? Dude, why bother wasting the ink to print it?"
Now, would game balance truly be affected if 'found' items were available for 50% off? ...as long as it was for everyone? That's a lot, yes. But all of a sudden finding things is actually important! You know, like in the home games. :)
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Ideas I have seen floated:
Discount - I think the slight discount (5-10%) on items in the chronicle is a much better idea than most. It would definitely make me look at the chronicle and keep track of what items I could pick up as a discount. At a low % discount it wouldn't throw off the economy and power level.
Unique items - Consumables at higher than purchasable caster level. Awesome. We have seen this implemented. We can get access to wand at higher CL, etc. I love to see these on a chronicle. I would like to see access to a non-legal item every once in a while too. Maybe something special for completing a difficult goal in a special. The downside of this is that not everyone ends up happy. The fighter doesn't want a Higher CL wand and the wizard doesn't want a unique sword.
Better items - The idea of just putting better items on the chronicle is not as great as it sounds. As Mark said, the items come off of the enemies. If the items on the chronicle are better than we can buy with fame, then the bad guys get to use those above average items against us. Nothing would suck more than giving the BBEG a sword of TPK just so that players stop complaining about the chronicle sheet items.
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Better items - The idea of just putting better items on the chronicle is not as great as it sounds. As Mark said, the items come off of the enemies. If the items on the chronicle are better than we can buy with fame, then the bad guys get to use those above average items against us. Nothing would suck more than giving the BBEG a sword of TPK just so that players stop complaining about the chronicle sheet items.
I don't know that anyone wants the items on a chronicle to be better exactly -- after all one +1 weapon ability is (in theory) balanced with another -- just less common. So when a new book comes out, a few items/properties/arcane spells aren't opened up, so that they can later appear on a chronicle. That doesn't seem to have much of an inherent power implication. Further, even if the other non-open items must continue to appear for campaign consistency purposes, a few less common items would still go a long way toward making chronicles more important.
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Ideas I have seen floated:
Discount - I think the slight discount (5-10%) on items in the chronicle is a much better idea than most. It would definitely make me look at the chronicle and keep track of what items I could pick up as a discount. At a low % discount it wouldn't throw off the economy and power level.
Yeah, this would make me actually care what items we find. Currently I just scan for unique items and then toss it in a folder never to be seen again. I don't think I've ever bought anything off a chronicle in over 20 levels of play.
One other thing that might be important is spellbooks found as I have noticed many DMs don't mention those, which makes it hard for characters with spellbooks to learn spells.