Can you use crane riposte and snake fang on the same opponent in a round?
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There's no reason you couldn't use them in the same round, though you'd need Combat Reflexes to ensure you have enough attacks of opportunity, and you couldn't trigger them off the same attack since a given action can only provoke an attack of opportunity once.
If you had an enemy making multiple attacks against you though, you could Crane WIng and Crane Riposte the first attack, and then use Snake Fang if the second attack misses, whether due to an insufficient roll or because you utilized Snake Style's ability. (Assuming you're a Master of Many Styles and are currently in both stances).
So you can make multiple AoO against the same person.
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So you can make multiple AoO against the same person.
Yes, but not for the same action. So if our theoretical evil fighter is attacking your monk and takes a full attack, you could use Crane Wing to deflect his first attack and make your first attack of opportunity with Crane Riposte. Then he makes his second attack and you burn your immediate action to use Snake Style and his attack roll doesn't exceed your Sense Motive check, so he misses, and that provokes a second attack of opportunity from you via Snake Fang.
This of course assumes you have Combat Reflexes so you can actually make more than one attack of opportunity a round.
That's what I needed! Thanks. So if I went MoMS and picked up snake style @1 and snake strike @2 using the bonus feats, I could have crane wing by 5th using character feats and be able to deflect one attack from a mob if his attack connects or get a free attack if he misses, and another if I hit with that attack.
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You can take multiple AoOs from the same action as long as it provokes multiple times.
Crane Wing and Snake Fang each present their own opportunity. So if you deflect an attack with Crane Wing, you could potentially take three attacks in retaliation; one from Crane Riposte and two from Snake Fang.
This is wrong. You can only provoke one attack of opportunity from a person per action. So if you had two different ways to make an attack of opportunity for me moving near you, the movement would still only provoke one attack of opportunity.
That doesn't sound right MacGurcules. After all, you only provoke once from any given enemy regardless of how many threatened squares you move through.
The the text Ssalarn quoted says not a single thing about any action only provoking once. If fact, if you don't truncate it like he did, it goes on to say that "if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity)." Here, the opponent provokes twice, so you take two AoOs. You only provoke once for movement because it later goes on to specifically call out movement as only provoking once.
There was a gigantic thread (more than one, actually) some months back on the subject of whether Greater Trip and Vicious stomp allow two AoOs when used in conjunction. This was eventally confirmed in a FAQ post that somehow never made it into the actual FAQ.
I see this as no different.
Well, you're wrong.
One attack made against you is only a single opportunity.
The text in the CRB that you quoted is referring to things like a spellcaster you threaten casting a ranged touch attack spell and provoking for A) casting a spell in a threatened space, and B) making a ranged attack in a threatened space.
Provoking AoOs depends on the provoker's actions taken, and has nothing to do with the provokee's abilities to make multiple AoOs.
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I contend that a hit deflected by crane wing, while no longer a hit, is not a miss. The text of Crane Wing does not say that the hit becomes a miss, it says the hit is deflected.
It is a deflected attack. It does no damage to you. It does not discharge an attacker's held touch attack, but it is not exactly the same as a miss and does not trigger Snake Fang.
Crane wing says that an attack that hits does no damage, not that it misses, creating many threads of unresolved arguments about nondamaging effects that trigger on a hit.
I wasn't even trying for a riposte AND a snake fang from the same attack, I was just wondering if I could use both in the same round against the same opponent but different iterations.
A MoMS of lvl 6 could pull this off by takin snake style, snake fang and crane riposte with his bonus feats, and crane style and crane wing with his normal feats. That's 3 attacks at highest BaB (-2 from fighting defensively), just from walking near a guy on your turn, and pray gods he doesn't try to hit you on your turn, cause that would be 6 attacks when most fighters are getting their 2nd iteration. Even TWFers only get 4 and that's at a decreased BaB.
I think my PF just broke again...
That's the beauty of taking crane riposte at lvl 6 that's when you are going to start seeing it used the most anyway. Snake fang is a 2nd lvl feat when you will use it the most. Crane wing comes at lvl 5 so it works well. You end up a bit feat shy for other things though, like dodge, mobility, weapon finesse, and weapon focus (for when you really need that plus one to hit. You could go into a 4lvl dip of weapon master for weapon training close, and weapon spec, or you can go to monk 8 and pick up snapping turtle style if you really need that extra defense.
So here is the kicker, both of these styles work while in armor. So if I only took MoMS to 2 and then became a heavy fighter, then I could buy the crane style feats and focus on str because dex and wis are much less important for armor wearers.... ?
Does captain America know about this?
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
That is for a base monk. Not sure if that matters for your goals, but do keep that in mind.
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
That is for a base monk. Not sure if that matters for your goals, but do keep that in mind.
I don't need ac bonus or fast movement, and style fusion replaces flurry of blows. I would be looking like:
20 pt buy
Str: 17 (13 pts)
Dex: 13 (3)
Con: 12 (2)
Int: 12 (2)
Wis12 (2)
Cha: 8
Any race that doesn't have a negative to str or con would work.
1) fighter- dodge, mobility
2) MoMS- snake style
3) MoMS- snake strike, crane style
4) fighter- really anything I want from here out. As long as I get crane wing and riposte.
I would use my turn walking around in heavy armor with a shield, provoking AoOs and using snake strike, then defend with crane style.
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because I have a monk/unarmed fighter doing this I wanted to chime in saying that you might want to boost your dex more so that you can get more attacks of opportunity. Also don't forget the brawling quality to your armor.
Side note: the martial art of wing chun is based of snake and crane style. It is the style of Ip Man and Bruce Lee before he invent Jeet Kune Do.
because I have a monk/unarmed fighter doing this I wanted to chime in saying that you might want to boost your dex more so that you can get more attacks of opportunity. Also don't forget the brawling quality to your armor.
Side note: the martial art of wing chun is based of snake and crane style. It is the style of Ip Man and Bruce Lee before he invent Jeet Kune Do.
Great tips, but brawling only applies to light armor. Do you use a weapon or shield at all?
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I have at least one weapon of each damage type at least. On me I have a dagger, a tonfa, some shuriken, a rope dart and shuriken. Mainly for the blocking quality and the "reach" of a rope dart so I don't always have to go hand to hand. My preferred method is unarmed attacks using fighting defensively or total defense and the ki point so my AC gets a huge +9 boost and attack of opportunity them to death, using trip and viscous stomp. It worked as a homebrew I am going completely by the rules with PFS now. So combat would go defensive attack, ki to dodge, weild tonfa/rope dart. Opponent attack hits, deflected, AoO to trip, opponent falls adjancent-AoO. So if both attacks hit you do two unarmed damage and neutralize the rest of your opponents attacks against you for the round because they have to get up. For added effect throw in a stunning fist for more fun.
EDIT: and remember AoO occur at your full attack.
Byrdology - remember that the attacks Snake Fang grants must me Unarmed Strikes. Also that Crane Wing can only be used when you have one hand free.
So, either you're wielding a 1h weapon OR a shield, you won't be able to do both with this build and use all your feats.
Yes, I was thinking spiked shield and unarmed strike as my off hand. Consider it an off captain America build. No throwing, and shield bashing later on when I get TWF... Maybe after 8 or so.
I originally considered doing this for my einhander character, but this seems more like a shield fighter/ ultimate flanking buddy. I also thought about MoMS 2/ Unarmed fighter2 so I could get all my essential feats by lvl 4, but that loses armor and shields. Weapon master could work, but I don't want to lose out on armor training.
Could I do a breastplate with a brawling armored kilt? Maybe make them adamantine for some DR on the off chance that I do get hit. Still can't decide if I want to go with a spiked shield for utility, or a sword just to look cool.
Once you add an armored kilt to armor, it's treated as one set of armor, not two. Therefore, the brawling enchantment would have to go on the suit of armor as a whole.
But could I enchant the kilt because its light, and then add it?
I suppose you could, but I have no idea what would become of the enchantment. You may well lose it.
Well I guess I could stay in light armor and go duelist... That puts a little more freedom on the unarmed fighter.
Ok, let me try out. Still haven't thought of a good race to choose from. Maybe half elf with a +2 in dex. If I go human I can buy dodge at 1 and mobility at 5
20 pt buy
Str: 16 (10)
Dex: 14 (5)
Con: 12 (2)
Int: 13 (3)
Wis: 12 (2)
Cha: 8 (-2)
1) unarmed fighter- snake style, combat reflexes
2) MoMS- snake strike
3) UF- crane style, crane wing
4) MoMS- crane riposte
5) UF- dodge
6) UF- mobility
7) UF- TWF
He will be wearing a chain shirt of brawling, and wield a defending temple sword. May go for combat expt and skip TWF. All enhancements will go to Str the dex.
Between brawling armor, gloves of dueling, and weapon training; I could have a +5 to hit and damage with unarmed strikes, and they would count as magic as well. That would also free up what would have been an amulet of mighty fists for an amulet of natural armor. All weapon enhancements on my temple sword would go to defense, but I would still get a +3 to hit and damage from gloves and WT. I just don't know if I should go TWF or trip master.
Dot
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Ok, let me try out. Still haven't thought of a good race to choose from. Maybe half elf with a +2 in dex. If I go human I can buy dodge at 1 and mobility at 5
20 pt buy
Str: 16 (10)
Dex: 14 (5)
Con: 12 (2)
Int: 13 (3)
Wis: 12 (2)
Cha: 8 (-2)1) unarmed fighter- snake style, combat reflexes
2) MoMS- snake strike
3) UF- crane style, crane wing
4) MoMS- crane riposte
5) UF- dodge
6) UF- mobility
7) UF- TWFHe will be wearing a chain shirt of brawling, and wield a defending temple sword. May go for combat expt and skip TWF. All enhancements will go to Str the dex.
You need Dodge before you can take Crane Style at level 3. The unarmed fighter only lets you skip the pre-reqs for the bonus feat gained at first level. It does not say anything about subsequent bonus feats.
Human it is then, thanks for the catch! Do you think I should even bother with TWF, or should I go the trip monkey route?
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You are probably going to try to get most of your damage from full-bab shots via AOOs, so TWF probably isn't going to be a game breaker for you damage wise. Plus when you move around trying to provoke AOOs you only have a standard action left, so no full attacks.
It's a tough choice, especially since you are going to have weapon training, and presumably gloves of dueling, to add that static damage to each attack; also your unarmed strikes will do full STR damage due to the monk dip, so you aren't getting hammered by the typical 50% str bonus to offhand attacks.
The decision should be based around how you want to play the character more than anything. Do you want to try and provide some battlefield control and remain mobile? Or, do you want to get setup and start wailing on your targets for damage?
I'd probably go with trip if you have other characters in the party that use melee and provide solid damage.
If you are the only melee damage dealer I might go TWF.
Well, one last question. Does TW rend work with unarmed attacks? It might be worth taking it if only for the extra damage on a successful snake strike.
Double slice would be a total waste though.
All weapon enhancements on my temple sword would go to defense...
Wasn't there something stating that the defensive weapon properties required that the weapon actually be used to attack each round?
Unfortunately, yes. It's in the FAQ.
Unfortunately, yes. It's in the FAQ.
Yay! Making the most expensive AC buff around useless for pretty much every class that ever wanted it! Just filled with win..../sarcasm
Bump
Thinking of going somewhere else after monk 2/ fighter 5. I am afraid I won't have enough tools in the box. And I will need to keep my AC reasonably high while wearing light armor.