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I think he meant on the round you cast it (in concert with Spell Combat, as well), not on subsequent rounds.
The ability to spell combat has no bearing on the ability to deliver multiple characters of chill touch in a single round. Spellstrike may be used to deliver 0 or more of those charges, attack sequence permitting.
I think he meant on the round you cast it (in concert with Spell Combat, as well), not on subsequent rounds.The ability to spell combat has no bearing on the ability to deliver multiple characters of chill touch in a single round. Spellstrike may be used to deliver 0 or more of those charges, attack sequence permitting.
That's still not really relevant.
Kyoni asked if you could cast chill touch, use Spellstrike to deliver it, AND make a normal touch attack to deliver it.
You responded talking about using flurry with a held charge.
Jiggy explained that Kyoni was probably asking about doing so all in the same round, rather than subsequent rounds.
Doing what Kyoni asked about, in the same round, is only possible using Spell Combat or a quickened spell. In both cases, Spellstrike is required.
Quickened chill touch (swift action), touch attack (free action), weapon attack with Spelltrike (standard action or full-attack, whatever)
or
Quickened chill touch (swift action), free attack with weapon via Spellstrike (free action), touch attack (standard action).
or
Spell Combat (full round action), cast chill touch, free touch attack, weapon attack(s) with Spellstrike.
The only one you can't do is use Spell Combat, use Spellstrike to make your free attack with a weapon, then make touch attack(s) as your weapon attacks. So the order matters. Quickened can go either way since you still have a standard action left.
Magus: Does spell combat count as making a full attack action for the purpose of haste and other effects?
No. Spell combat is its own kind of full-round action, and is not a full attack action.
—Pathfinder Design Team, today
Awhile ago, I found this post where you can see the dev team (by way of "No reply required" to the post saying you can't do it) have believed this for a while. I wanted to do some more investigation on it before linking to it, but I guess I don't have to do so anymore.
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Awhile ago, I found this post where you can see the dev team (by way of "No reply required" to the post saying you can't do it) have believed this for a while. I wanted to do some more investigation on it before linking to it, but I guess I don't have to do so anymore.Magus: Does spell combat count as making a full attack action for the purpose of haste and other effects?
No. Spell combat is its own kind of full-round action, and is not a full attack action.
—Pathfinder Design Team, today
Welp that fixes that. Will have to update the Hexcrafter guide (specifically the Transmorgifist build) to take account of this new ruling.
Can't say I'm surprised and it is a decent compromise but it's really going to play havoc with how I prioritize actions in combat now.
Magus: Does spell combat count as making a full attack action for the purpose of haste and other effects?
No. Spell combat is its own kind of full-round action, and is not a full attack action.
—Pathfinder Design Team, today
So no extra attack from Haste when using Spell Combat, but you would still get the +1 to Hit (and movement, etc) when using Spell Combat right?
So if you normally only get 1 attack, you could either use Haste to get two attacks at your highest +1, or use Spell Combat and Spellstrike to get two attacks at your highest -1 (-2 for Spell Combat +1 for Haste) and one of those attacks would have a spell attached to it?
So if you normally only get 1 attack, you could either use Haste to get two attacks at your highest +1, or use Spell Combat and Spellstrike to get two attacks at your highest -1 (-2 for Spell Combat +1 for Haste) and one of those attacks would have a spell attached to it?
That's a weird and kind of incomplete way of thinking about it, but yeah, it's pretty much correct.
If you full-attack, haste gives you an extra attack (among other benefits).
If you don't full-attack, you don't get the extra attack from haste. You can still get the other benefits, though.
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The FAQs revolve the other questions in this thread too:
Magus: When using spell combat, can the weapon in my other hand be an unarmed strike or a natural weapon?Yes, so long as the weapon is a light or one-handed melee weapon and is associated with that hand. For example, unarmed strikes, claws, and slams are light melee weapons associated with a hand, and therefore are valid for use with spell combat. A tail slap is not associated with a hand, and therefore is not valid for use with spell combat.
—Pathfinder Design Team, yesterday Back to Top
Magus: When using spell combat, do I specifically have to use the weapon in my other hand, or can I use a mixture of weapons (such as armor spikes and bites) so long as my casting hand remains free?
You specifically have to use the light or one-handed melee weapon in your other hand.
—Pathfinder Design Team, yesterday
I thought the flavor of the class was meant to be slightly different, but now we have the official ruling.
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The FAQs revolve the other questions in this thread too:
Magus: When using spell combat, can the weapon in my other hand be an unarmed strike or a natural weapon?Yes, so long as the weapon is a light or one-handed melee weapon and is associated with that hand. For example, unarmed strikes, claws, and slams are light melee weapons associated with a hand, and therefore are valid for use with spell combat. A tail slap is not associated with a hand, and therefore is not valid for use with spell combat.
—Pathfinder Design Team, yesterday Back to Top
Magus: When using spell combat, do I specifically have to use the weapon in my other hand, or can I use a mixture of weapons (such as armor spikes and bites) so long as my casting hand remains free?
You specifically have to use the light or one-handed melee weapon in your other hand.
—Pathfinder Design Team, yesterday
I thought the flavor of the class was meant to be slightly different, but now we have the official ruling.
The one "corner" case where I expect this rules debate to return is what happens if you have more than 2 hands. There are a number of humanoids out there that have more than 2 hands and will definitely want to use all of them while using spell combat.
Might as well get this out of the way now.
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Sucks to be them. Regardless of how many hands you have, you pick a weapon "associated" with just one of them and that's your main-hand attack. The spell takes up your "off-hand" opportunity already so you can't get another off-hand attack using a weapon in a third hand. And, as stated in the relevant FAQs, it must be a hand-associated weapon; this could include swords, gauntlets, tekko-kagi, shield bash, claws, or unarmed strikes, but not Barbazu Beard, Tail or Wing swipes, or Boot Blade. The only ambiguity is whether you can have, say, a sword in hand A, a dagger in Hand B, and your spell in Hand C and assign the two weapons to different normal iterative attacks or if you must make all your iteratives with the same weapon.
Kinda, the real question is if you have a spell in hand A with a claw in hand B, C,D,E & F. Can you make a claw attack with 1 or all of them?
The Faq clarifies a lot but it actually makes this question just as ambiguous as it was before.
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Kinda, the real question is if you have a spell in hand A with a claw in hand B, C,D,E & F. Can you make a claw attack with 1 or all of them?
There's another FAQ which Diego didn't quote, specifying that Spell Combat is NOT a full-attack. Thus, it only does what it explicitly says it does: you can attack with specified light or one-handed melee weapon. You don't get to port in other things that would come along with full-attacks (like a haste attack, additional natural attacks, actual TWF, etc) because it's not a full-attack.
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Kinda, the real question is if you have a spell in hand A with a claw in hand B, C,D,E & F. Can you make a claw attack with 1 or all of them?There's another FAQ which Diego didn't quote, specifying that Spell Combat is NOT a full-attack. Thus, it only does what it explicitly says it does: you can attack with specified light or one-handed melee weapon. You don't get to port in other things that would come along with full-attacks (like a haste attack, additional natural attacks, actual TWF, etc) because it's not a full-attack.
That's not relevent to the question at hand here.
The quotes:
For example, unarmed strikes, claws, and slams are light melee weapons associated with a hand, and therefore are valid for use with spell combat.
You specifically have to use the light or one-handed melee weapon in your other hand.
implies that with spellcombat you can make all the other attacks you could make with your other hand during a full attack while doing spellcombat. The question I asked is how does that work if you have more than one other hand?
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Don't forget to go back and re-read Spell Combat itself. It uses one weapon.
Actually no it doesn't.
The only thing Spell combat ever says about weapons is that you have to wield a light or one-handed weapon in your other hand. Nothing ever states it only uses one weapon.
To be more exact about it, the very first sentence in the Spellcombat description:
At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his WEAPONS at the same time.
refers to multiple weapons not singular.
Now we go back to the basic question, what happens if you use spellcombat while wielding a light or 1-handed weapon in ALL your other hands?
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To be more exact about it, the very first sentence in the Spellcombat description:
At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his WEAPONS at the same time.refers to multiple weapons not singular.
It also says "spells" (plural) not "spell" (singular). Are you now going to argue that Spell Combat lets you cast multiple spells as part of the same full-round action? Because if not, then that argument doesn't work with "weapons" either.
Now then, looking at the specifics of how Spell Combat works, we get this:
To use this ability,
....
...while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast...
So if you keep reading past the introductory, "here's the general idea" line and look at how it actually presents the mechanics of how Spell Combat works, you'll see that (after listing the weapon requirement) refers back to that requirement when it says you can attack (with the aforementioned singular weapon). This is the same reason we know that "his melee weapon" includes the "light or one-handed" restriction despite not reiterating it.
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Magus: Does spell combat count as making a full attack action for the purpose of haste and other effects?
No. Spell combat is its own kind of full-round action, and is not a full attack action.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 04/05/13
So it is a full-round action that do only what it say it do in spell combat.
Spell Combat (Ex): At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.
All his attacks with his melee weapon held in to other hand.
So he is entitled to all the iterative attacks he can make with hi other hand. Nothing more.
Doing multiple attacks with multiple appendages require a full attack, but spell combat is a full round action that isn't a full attack.
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Rudeness and snide comments aside this is a new, unique action and how it interacts with the natural attack rules is still undetermined.
Since they have explicitly stated that natural attacks are valid for spellcombat but Natural Attacks do not use the iterative mechanic there is confusion on how they interact.
Spellcombat simulates the full attack action by letting you make multiple attacks with your chosen hand based weapon. When using Natural attacks with the full attack action you are allowed to use more then one limb to attack with.
The question comes down to how does spellcombat simulate the full attack action for users whose full attack REQUIRES multiple limbs be used?
Either it lets them use all legal other hands to attack with OR it doesn't which makes spellcombat significantly weaker if using natural weapons.
Either option works for me we just need to know which one is correct.
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Mathwei: I wish it was differently, but I think you are wrong here.
From FAQs:
"Spell combat is its own kind of full-round action, and is not a full attack action."
"A tail slap is not associated with a hand, and therefore is not valid for use with spell combat."
"You specifically have to use the light or one-handed melee weapon in your other hand."
Let's sum up: Spell combat is NOT a full attack action. When you use Spell combat, you have to have a light weapon in one hand (can be natural). Spell combat can than ONLY be used with the weapon associated to that hand. You can neither use tails, or other "limbs" aside from hands.
The benefit than is, that you get your normal attacks + one from delivering the touch. And you get your normal attacks of the associated hand. That is it. I think there's lot's of rule flaws and loopholes around many classes, including the Magus, but this is not one of them.
I see what you are saying here and agree with 90% of it, my question is strictly on a single corner case issue (which is actually huge for Magi using the monstrous humanoid spell).
In the case where you have more than 2 hands (hands, not limbs), with natural attacks on those hands (claws, pinchers, slams, etc) and you use spell combat, what happens?
A. You have 1 mainhand casting/wielding the spell.
B. You have 3 other hands each wielding a valid natural weapon.
For a natural weapon user those 3 claw attacks are all other-hand attacks and they are each valid choices for spellcombat per the new faq.
Now, Spell combat simply states "As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action".
AND the faq update states "You specifically have to use the light or one-handed melee weapon in your other hand."
Then my question goes back to the basics, what happens if you have more than one other hand?
I agree. Calling it its own things doesn't make much sense to me.
Haste was really that big a problem?
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Not haste alone.... but you could do some scary stuff with Monstrous Physique + Spell Combat + Haste... like 2-3 regular attacks +1 attack from spell + 1 attack from quickened spell + 1 attack from haste + 4 natural attacks + 1 stored spell from weapon + 1 stored spell from AoMF
I still can. The free attack granted by touch spells is not part of spell combat. It is a side benefit.
If I use monstrous physique to hold 5 weapons, each with a stored shocking grasp, I can chain free attacks.
Pearls of power to recharge all my weapons after combat ends.
I don't see any of that as unbalancing. It takes a LOT of investment.
I still can. The free attack granted by touch spells is not part of spell combat. It is a side benefit.If I use monstrous physique to hold 5 weapons, each with a stored shocking grasp, I can chain free attacks.
Pearls of power to recharge all my weapons after combat ends.
Wait, are you trying to say you'd be using 5 Spell Storing Weapons with Shocking Grasp in them to do 10 attacks? Because a Spell Storing item casts the spell itself, not you, so you wouldn't get the free attack with the ones discharged off the weapons.
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Wait, are you trying to say you'd be using 5 Spell Storing Weapons with Shocking Grasp in them to do 10 attacks? Because a Spell Storing item casts the spell itself, not you, so you wouldn't get the free attack with the ones discharged off the weapons.
I still can. The free attack granted by touch spells is not part of spell combat. It is a side benefit.If I use monstrous physique to hold 5 weapons, each with a stored shocking grasp, I can chain free attacks.
Pearls of power to recharge all my weapons after combat ends.
Exactly. I don't know where Artanthos has got his idea that a spell storing weapon has anything to do with spellstrike.
With strike you deliver the free attack you get from casting a touch ranged spell with your weapon.
With storing you don't get a free touch attack.
- * -
Mathwei ap Niall, what part of "Multiple Attacks: A character who can make more than one attack per round must use the full-attack action (see Full-Round Actions) in order to get more than one attack." and "No. Spell combat is its own kind of full-round action, and is not a full attack action." is unclear?
Spell combat is a special full round action that allow you 1 set of iterative attacks with 1 limb. Full stop.
I don't see anything unclear in the rules after the FAQ.
Magus: Does spell combat count as making a full attack action for the purpose of haste and other effects?
No. Spell combat is its own kind of full-round action, and is not a full attack action.
and
(...)a magus could use spellstrike to cast a touch spell, take a move toward an enemy, then (as a free action) make a melee attack with his weapon to deliver the spell.
On a related topic, the magus touching his held weapon doesn’t count as “touching anything or anyone” when determining if he discharges the spell. A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster. Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon) with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell.
Now I'm a bit unsure about the move during spell combat. Since it is not a full attack option, do I get to move the full 30' or just a 5'-Step?
And would it be 30' even if I used spell strike, i.e. cast, move 30', make free attack, make regular attack?
What would happen at 8th level, when I get the second iterative attack?
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Caboodle, you're mixing up Spell Combat and Spellstrike.
EDIT: Also, if you're not sure how the move-and-deliver thing works, you need to re-read the Core Rules on how touch spells work:
In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target.
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You don't need spell combat to use a quickened spell + swing with a boatload of spell storing items.
+1 spell storing scimitar,4 +1 spell storing daggers, 10 pearls of power I = 30,000 gp. You can alpha strike three combats/day with a free hand for dervish dancing.
At higher level, use bladed dash as your quickened spell. Better than pounce.
You don't need spell combat to use a quickened spell + swing with a boatload of spell storing items.
+1 spell storing scimitar,4 +1 spell storing daggers, 10 pearls of power I = 30,000 gp. You can alpha strike three combats/day with a free hand for dervish dancing.
So to be able to make all five attacks, that's at level 15, using two-weapon fighting, and casting a quickened touch spell for the 5th attack? Or level 8 with improved TWF?
At higher level, use bladed dash as your quickened spell. Better than pounce.
So you're saying use Spell Combat, and then drop and quickdraw all five weapons? How do you get the 5th attack, since you're limited to 3 from BAB and 1 from the spell? Are you multiclassing for a higher BAB?
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Wait, are you trying to say you'd be using 5 Spell Storing Weapons with Shocking Grasp in them to do 10 attacks? Because a Spell Storing item casts the spell itself, not you, so you wouldn't get the free attack with the ones discharged off the weapons.
I still can. The free attack granted by touch spells is not part of spell combat. It is a side benefit.If I use monstrous physique to hold 5 weapons, each with a stored shocking grasp, I can chain free attacks.
Pearls of power to recharge all my weapons after combat ends.
Exactly. I don't know where Artanthos has got his idea that a spell storing weapon has anything to do with spellstrike.
With strike you deliver the free attack you get from casting a touch ranged spell with your weapon.
With storing you don't get a free touch attack.- * -
Mathwei ap Niall, what part of "Multiple Attacks: A character who can make more than one attack per round must use the full-attack action (see Full-Round Actions) in order to get more than one attack." and "No. Spell combat is its own kind of full-round action, and is not a full attack action." is unclear?
Spell combat is a special full round action that allow you 1 set of iterative attacks with 1 limb. Full stop.
I don't see anything unclear in the rules after the FAQ.
The unclear part is what happens if you CAN'T DO ITERATIVE ATTACKS. Full Stop.
Natural attacks are strictly prohibited from ever doing iterative attacks but are legal for this, what happens?
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I'm saying monstrous physique for 6 arms.
two-weapon fighting/multi-weapon fighting.
scimitar + 4 daggers held, 1 hand free.
quickened spell as a swift action
6+ melee attacks using standard full round attack action.
Minimum 7'th level magus with wayang spell hunter + magical lineage.
Quickened Bladed Dash would involve a 4th-6th level spell slot, so not available until higher level.
The same could be done with less effectiveness by a wizard at 5th level as no magus specific abilities are invoked.
Realistically, not viable until level 10+ due to wealth limitations.
The unclear part is what happens if you CAN'T DO ITERATIVE ATTACKS. Full Stop.
Like what? I'm not sure what you're asking here. Is there something that would prevent making iterative attacks but not other kind of attacks?
Natural attacks are strictly prohibited from ever doing iterative attacks but are legal for this, what happens?
What happens is you make your one claw attack with your other (non-spell) hand. It doesn't matter how many bites and wings and tailslaps you have, you can't use them with spell combat.
I'm saying monstrous physique for 6 arms.
two-weapon fighting/multi-weapon fighting.
Ah, so you're under the impression that having more hands means more off-hand attacks. There's a FAQ Request post here for this.
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I think that the particular bee in his bonnet is that natural attacks do not use the iterative attack mechanic...but a natural attack (claw) can be the 'light or one-handed' weapon used in conjunction with Spell Combat....therefore it is a natural attack that uses the iterative attack mechanic because you get your iterative attacks with Spell Combat.