For the purposes of this thread a megadungeon is defined as a singular site divided into multiple layers (either vertically, horizontally or both) which serves as an adventure site for player characters (PC's) and is large enough that it can't be cleared of evil in a single session, if ever.
That being said...
1. does it have a central hub or a couple?
2. how broad does the central theme need to be, and does it even need one?
3. Are there rooms/encounters/memes/tropes so sacred/iconic they should get included?
I've been through a few blogs and threads on this subject and these were the questions I was left with (among others). I'm wondering what the community at large thinks.
I put this in the wrong general discussion, so this is a re-do
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Since I am on the verge of a megadungeon campaign myself, I am also curious what the community thinks.
I would say that an overarching theme should be present, something that makes it more than a random collection of smaller dungeons. The different levels/areas should have a different tone however. It is important to give the impression of change and movement to prevent the environment from growing stale and repetitive.
I am a fan of role playing over roll playing and so I think there is a need for role playing encounters or at the very least a wide variety of encounters. If the game becomes a long slog of one fight after another, even if they are interesting and dynamic fights, I feel that the game would also grow stale.
Beyond that, I want to know what those with more experience in megadungeons think.
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My personal opinion on the matter is that a dungeon doesn't need to be any larger than what's needed for the challenges you want the party to face. Creating dungeons and maps and then placing challenges is counter intuitive. You're working backwards. Instead, decide what sorts of challenges you want your party to face. Expand the size of the dungeon as needed to accommodate the challenges you've created.
There are plenty of challenges that could require a massive dungeon, or at the very least be made more interesting by taking place in such a location. Just be careful that you aren't trying to fill big places with 'stuff'. Cause then you might find that your super-awesome-dungeon is actually not all that awesome after all.
So my advice would be to ask yourself "Is a mega-dungeon right for the challenges I've created?" rather than "Okay I have a mega-dungeon, what do I fill it with?"
Now all that said, here are my answers to your questions.
1. does it [need to] have a central hub or a couple?
This depends entirely on the dungeon. But I don't think that it is strictly necessary. In fact, players may even find it more interesting to secure locations within the dungeon for themselves, essentially creating hubs where there were none.
2. how broad does the central theme need to be, and does it even need one?
While I don't think a central theme is strictly needed I think it goes a long way in helping players understand the location their in and immersing themselves in the experience. I don't have any opinion on how broad it needs to be.
3. Are there rooms/encounters/memes/tropes so sacred/iconic they should get included?
No, I don't think so. The dungeon only needs what it needs. If there is something that happens to be a meme and including that thing, whatever it is, would improve your dungeon, then yeah go for it. But don't include anything just because its iconic or common in fantasy.
Any other thoughts?
A room with barrels, lots and lots of barrels. And jars. And crates. And random shrubbery that, when cut, money pops out.
Actually did this. One of the first megadungeons I created in years had a crypt level. Several crypts had decorative vases and ewers standing on the floor; each was roughly the size of a barrel. First chamber the PCs came to like this, the youngest player in the group began moving his character, from cyst to cyst, smashing jars.
He was dead serious and it took me a second to realize what he was doing. Then I just shrugged and rolled with it. In the third cyst he smashed one containing 50 GP and a scroll of burning hands. They had a fight and moved on. A couple chambers later; more vases. This time I had one trapped with a burning hands trap.
Seriously though, do people just not create a lot of megadungeons anymore, or is it too late at night/not an interesting enough topic for discussion?
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Megadungeons for the home GM are tricky. My suspicion is that the original megadungeons were merely smaller dungeons tied together as the PCs completed the previous levels. Hardly cohesive, and more a reason to keep the players tethered to the same region to cut down the GM's work.
Nowadays a Megadungeon needs to have multiple layers of history:
What was the dungeon originally for?
who moved into it later?
who squats there now?
The overarching theme should answer the first question. Variation comes from answering questions two and three. I like to think of a Megadungeon as something more mythic than a standard dungeon, there is a level of ecology and perhaps even an internal intelligence to the dungeon. The location should be as much a character as the inhabitants, the players and villains.
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I believe every dungeon should:
a. Tell a story
b. Have a consistent internal logic
For me, a mega-dongeon is a place or series of places that are tied together with a great back story. Some the characters may know at the start but I love when it includes more to be found and learned as the party moves through the dungeon.
The only "trope" I think a mega-dungeon has to have is I like to have it include the old "Traps, Puzzles, and riddles" at some point. But that is just me.
If you plan that the players explore this dungeon for severl days/weeks, offer them rest places. Maybe they have to free them first, but some places where they regain strength etc.
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One of the things every megadungeon needs is a nearby town for the PCs to use as a base of operations. This should be big enough to provide the resources the adventurers need, such as a cleric that is high enough level to cast spells like restoration and raise dead. However, if you use a large enough settlement it can be difficult to fully detail it enough, which may or may not be a problem depending on how you treat the settlement. If all it is is a way to provide resources to the PCs it doesn't need to be fully detailed. Theoretically the town could be inside the dungeon it's self, or it could be less a town and more of a camp in remote areas far from civilization.
A megadungeon is a "living" place, it will change over time due to the actions of it's inhabitants and in response to the PCs actions. A PC group will never clear out a megadungeon, not only because it's too large, but because as the PCs clear out certain sections of it these sections will be repopulated by other monsters. There is no "end" to a megadungeon, even if it is bounded geographically. Even then a DM can still add new areas, as the inhabitants mine them out, or otherwise create them.
The megadungeon doesn't need one overarching theme, but it can be useful. However, this theme should not dominate the dungeon entirely. That can get pretty boring. Instead have levels that are different somehow, like a cave of troglodytes connected to a megadungeon inhabited by undead, or have the dungeons intersect with a different underground structure that existed before.
A good dungeon, in my experience does not have every single room inhabited. Despite what the Pathfinder Gamemastery Guide says, "empty" rooms are good. These can serve as a buffer between different monsters, addressing the complaint of "why haven't all these monsters killed each other already if they live in such close proximity?", can serve as channels for PC exploration, allowing them choices like "do we attack these orcs, or do we try to go around them and see what is there first?" or can serve as a refuge were the PCs can hole up and prepare to take on additional challenges. A classic megadungeon is not the "break down the door, kill the monsters, loot there stuff, rinse repeat" hack and slash dungeon that so many complain about. It's primarily about exploring this wondrous, exotic and dangerous location... and then looting it.
Levels tend to have multiple interconnections, and internally to have lot of different paths, branches, side paths, etc. A classic megadungeon level isn't a linear path from the entrance to a "boss monster" whose guarding the only path to the next level. In addition there tend to be multiple entrances, often providing convenient access to the lower levels.
Also, don't think you need to detail the whole thing at once. It's good to have an idea of how the whole thing fits together, but generally you should work on 2-3 levels at once. Also one dungeon level does not necessarily equate to one character level. It can, but even then it tends to have "extra xp", so that the characters don't need to clear out the whole level (which as I said before, is unlikely anyways) to go up a level.
This is it for now, I might have more thoughts later.
Thanks for the detailed contributions. How to reveal the dungeon's history? I've done the journal thing and the wall frieze thing. I'm wondering if there are other interesting, fantastic things I can do to tell the players.
I thought all of these were really cool on paper. The players going through them didn't care and just wanted to get to the next fight. It was so obviously boring I skipped the last one and just threw in a bunch of brain-eating zombies and kobolds.
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AH Megadungeons!
First of all make sure that the dungeon HAD an original purpose. For instance my Megadungeon was originally a shelter from some sort of cataclysm. A city underground. Then something went wrong!
Make the Dungeon seem alive. The doors don't work for players unless you spike them. Noises, whispers, footsteps, moans, and other sounds.
Have different factions and monsters inhabit sections of the Megadungeon. Many of them have to allow the other to live to survive the more deadly monsters below that come up when hungry! Have underground farms, ranches, and ponds that grow food as well as a trading center that is neutral ground!
Multiple pieces of graph paper! Labeled 1A, 1B, 1C, and such. I have had over 100 rooms per level!
Make there be more than one way in. Fireplaces, collapsed roofs that are now waterfalls, Rotten holes in the roof that go many levels down but are deadly to climb on, an atrium for plant growth, instead of just one way in. If the place is alive the fireplaces will be burning!
Make it ancient with old cryptic writing. Have the sad tale of what happened in books and in graffiti on the walls.
Make it haunted with eerie things that are not combat just creepy. Pictures that look like the players being mutilated, statues that move and contort when the players are not looking, harmless but scary looking ghost! Creep the players out!
Have some devices and door be only opened by Magic Users and such.
History and Lore would be very important and can make a spell caster very fun to play if he is also the brain of the group.
Have safe places for the characters to heal!
Have Prisoners and such for Character replacements!
As soon as a Megadungeon has gold brought back to town there will be MANY NPC Parties Adventurer or not trying to get the gold. They can be more dangerous than monsters and a good story.
As they get deeper make it connect to the Mythic Underworld. Another world underground!
See the Mythic Underworld Rules by Philotomy
http://www.grey-elf.com/philotomy.pdf
Look up Stonehell as well. It will inspire you! Really good free download of Level 1!
If you get the dungeon going please post it on Goggle Docs or something so we can enjoy!
This is all I have so far (includes history of the dungeon and a write up of a unique dark folk I'm thinking about including).
So far I only have an outline of what I want the dungon levels to contain:
1. Surface ruins – the remnants of the Ghostwood Coven
2. Level 1 – the undercroft
a. Storage
b. Random monsters and threats
c. Sub-level: the Crypts
i. 5 room dungeon leading to the death of Hilvik Damayth (skeletal champion)
ii. Side quest: sanctify the crypts/save Morrigu
1. Enter the crypts with Morrigu’s Bones
2. Complete the dungeon and destroy Hilvik
3. Inter her bones and use skill challenge to sanctify the place
4. Rewards
a. Loot (APL 4 Major treasure)
b. On top of monster experience, also earn a CR 4 award each
3. Level 2 – Mabbe’s Mirror
a. Split into many sub-levels
i. Fairest of them all: wherein the dark folk try to find a vessel for their Queen
ii. Gallerie Macabre: within these halls and chambers are those who’ve earned Mabbe’s disdain
iii. Wicked’s Rest: a neutral but still frightening place where the underdwelling fey gather to revel and keep tabs on the Mad Queen
What do you think of it so far?
Ok, so I'd ask again - how to relate history?
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There's a lot of ways, but the best is to make figuring out the past key to continuing.
Perhaps to open the doors to a deeper level they need to recite a poem, pieces of which are around the dungeon level reciting the history. Players need to put the verses in the right order by figuring out the order of events from other sources in the dungeon.
I would argue that a megadungeon doesn't necessarily have to have a purpose, or if it does it doesn't necessarily need to be well thought out. Castle Greyhawk's premise was basically a wizard (named Zagyg) did it. Also many dungeons are mysterious, eldritch places where the rules of the natural world don't apply, whose to say such a place couldn't just appear out of nowhere? Generally having some idea of why the place exists is useful though. Of course many megadungeons don't have one unified story of how the place came to be, instead they have a long, complicated history with many twists and turns and different influences (and then dwarves built a fortress nearby, but they accidentally breached the dungeon and then got overrun by goblins, the goblins built a temple to there dark gods under the fortress, then orcs came in profaned the fortress and caused the dark gods to create a portal to the Abyss, spewing out demons that mined up into the temple and slaughtered the orcs...).
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If someone already said this, I apologize. But a megadungeon requires an ecology. It needs some means of maintaining an ongoing vibrant living (and non-living) population that would not simply attempt to annihilate each other. What do the denizens eat and drink? How is it distributed among the different areas? Are there food and water choke points (e.g. everyone has to come to the central underground lake every couple of days to refill their water containers)
There needs to be some sort of chain of command or pecking order. That implies some sense of social order among the inhabitants. If someone enters the upper floor of the dungeon, is that automatically going to trigger an alarm all the way to the biggest, baddest evil dude down on level -5? If not, why not?
Traps. Lots of traps. Not all of them lethal, some just designed to slow down and confuse invaders. But the area should be defensible.
Shortcuts between levels. Assuming the standard model where the nastiest, meanest, toughest dudes live on the lowest levels, they would not want to hike the laborious path up through the lizard men, the drow, the giant spiders and finally have to deal with those pesky kobolds every time they wanted to head out and do their nefarious deeds. So they'll have secret doors and passages.
I am currently running an underdark campaign. It's essentially a "megadungeon" but in a Mega Mega sense since it extends for mile after mile and there are entire kingdoms down there. But the area the party is exploring is just one small fraction of the underdark, but there are clear boundaries between the areas controlled by lizard men, drow or mindflayers. They sometimes go to war over those boundaries. In my megadungeon, those boundaries are actually marked and patrolled.
Just some thoughts.
So my megadungeon is basically about a raging narcisist imprisoned in the Shadow plane. The only way she could communicate was through a mirror, originally intended as a means for her and her sister to speak. The mirror was stolen, placed in a dungeon, and bad stuff happened centuries ago.
Now on the surface, above the dungeon, life progressed as normal in the mortal world; the guy that stole the mirror in the first place was slain and his home sieged. His misguided grandson, bereft of all the facts, came back, retook his ancestral lands, and rebuilt. Since there was shame and dishonor about the old kingdom, this young avenger took on a fresh new identity.
Over time the noble house became one of eight that helped the region rebuild and settle the nearby town. This noble house sat on the council. The years rolled on and the evils of the dungeon below were forgotten; in turn these evils forgot those above, turning to darker pursuits (don't know what these are yet.)
Then a hag formed a coven in hopes of rediscovering the powerful being in the mirror. This hag and her schemes almost destroyed the town, got the manor ruined and re-invigorated the darkness here. That coven's activities took place 20 years ago.
Now the adventurers of my game have come along. The place is off limits; several adventurers since the coven have come through trying to explore into the depths but none have been successful the noble house physically relocated, rebuilding elsewhere on their lands while the ruin itself was warded as much to keep the evil in as well as keep locals and travelers out.
The party has been given special dispensation to enter and try to determine the source of the evil (ALL the history before the hag coven is currently unknown to the PCs or any source they've so far consulted). They've also already picked up 2 side quests: find a way into the Crypt sublevel, retrieve the noble house's honor sword and seal the place with the proper rites to sanctify the dead housed there (Knowledge: Religion skill challenge involving casting Consecrate, making concentration checks, and some other stuff).
Ideas?
Hmm... so the obvious purpose of the "darker pursuits" must have included freeing the evil narcissist, right?
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Needs a Water level.
Hmm... so the obvious purpose of the "darker pursuits" must have included freeing the evil narcissist, right?
Attempted to free. Again, bear in mind the timeline I've got going on here:
- 2 centuries ago: mortal gets away with talking mirror containing imprisoned narcisist.
- mirror thief builds initial dungeon in attempt to secure mirror; begins working to free the woman in it.
- 9 years later mirror thief dies; narcisist still in the clink
- 45 years later estranged grandson reclaims the surface above; no idea or, if knowledgeable, no desire to shut down dungeon below.
- a century later: hag and her coven show up to seduce noble descendant and gain access to lower halls. The hag bargains for power in exchange for the narcisist's freedom
- a year later, on the verge of success the coven is attacked and defeated; the manor is ruined and abandoned once and for all
- modern time: PCs arrive to deal with monsters and corruption resulting from the Shadow plane leaking into the prime material from somewhere w/in the ruins.
So one of the concepts I had was that the woman in the mirror can possess vessels (think demons in the show Supernatural) but her vanity means the vessel has to be uber-pretty and the woman's power means that the vessel burns out quickly. This allows her to stretch her legs, maybe even gets her a 1-day furlow from prison, but ultimately she's back in the box.
To that end I thought perhaps the different layers of the dungeon then would be places where a woman such as this would be able to entertain herself. She used to be a fey creature; presumably she enjoys a good revel now and again. Also her self-obsession would mean she wants to see herself all about, even if its not her real face. So while scheme after scheme gets hatched and tried in an attempt to spring her from the big house, she commissions her minions to create ever more elaborate scenes for her amusements; ballrooms, arenas, underground forests...maybe even that WATER level Rinny asked for :)
Ok, so I'd ask again - how to relate history?
Where there's History, there's History Buffs-
A wizened local, who once heard the shrieks of the hag, and can recite verbatim the town's history, both general and specific...
An up-and-coming local bard, who has put together a short presentation on the history of the ruined manor.
An overly-enthusiastic type who claims to have knowledge of the occult, very eager to help the party out- this could manifest in many ways, maybe ghost-hunters, gold-diggers, paranoid cultists, what-have-you.
The descendent of a bastard son or daughter from the original noble house, intent on proving their bloodline.
The appearance of a specific monster from the dungeon in town/near town that reveals an aspect of the dungeon- "Hey, kobolds! Haven't seen them since Ol' Whats-his-name started digging that hole over on Deadman's Ridge..."
Another option might be to consider who the Major Players in the dungeon are, and how they might manipulate/dupe/cajole the local population to meet their nefarious ends. Like charming the local druid to throw off the trail, or drawing the militia into a battle against raiding orcs while simultaneously poisoning the town well, etc.
Use the megadungeon's surroundings and supporting cast to your advantage. Is it a place with strong ties to the locals? Do many families have a tie to it? If they do, maybe some or all have reason to support (or block) the party from accessing the dungeon.
Hope that helps!
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A dungeon needs a reason why the PCs want to go inside it.
I would recommend looking into Undermountain. It has everything you need.
Undermountain was very cool, and if I were to create my own mega dungeon, I'd borrow at least a smattering of ideas and themes from there. Ah, I wish I still had that black and purple box...
Re: story revelations, I think a good way to get the party invested in finding out about the dungeon and its origins is to constantly reference stuff that gives them more impetus to delve deeper. Either the carrot (finding hints of megatreasure at the bottom of th megadungeon), or the stick (emerging BBEG, or some other calamity, requires them to go deeper to divert danger to the surface world).
Ah, Undermountain...
@ BA - thanks for this comprehensive list; it gave me some base ideas to add to. There are going to be many levels to this thing. The surface ruins level (level 0 or level 1, depending how you look at it) will be the most accessible and therefore the first place the party looks. Within this level will be 3 factions:
1. the fey - they're there to keep an eye on Mabbe and represent a potential ally right off the bat, however they won't take kindly to some mortals meddling in their affairs; regardless there will be an underlying fey court kind of conflict the party might be able to get involved in
2. a Fetchling Wizard and his minions - a profiteer and go-between to the dark folk below, he will be a good "major player in the dungeon" who can reveal some info...for a price
3. goblins - even before PF these guys were always my fall back for a humanoid source of evil and mayhem in my games; these particular goblins will be led by a brutal and malicious bugbear who seeks to increase his power and has scattered several bases and bolt-holes throughout the place
So following BA's suggestions:
- an initial source of info will definitely be an expert in the form of the current descendant of the noble family who originally owned the ruined manor.
- faction "manipulators" might be willing to work with the party directly, feeding them some of the history in their dealings to motivate or prepare the PCs for a delve.
- the goblins can serve as the "monsters from the dungeon" who infest the town or its environs. They're high-profile enough to be known squatters in the surface ruins and when some of the blighters escape and run amok in the town, of course it'll attract the PCs. However some sub-chief will grin and gloat that the handful of them on the surface pale in comparison to the teeming hordes in the dark just below the party's feet...
Now alongside this I might also have a few Diablo-esque touches, like perhaps magic-mouth skulls relating some passage of the Litany of Queen Mabbe or tomes detailing some aspect of her. Then there might also be creepy horror nods like having kids in town singing a dark nursery rhyme about some level of the dungeon or some such.
@ Undermountain - I played this much as a kid. I liked it which is why I get the urge to make megadungeons once in a while. I also really appreciated how "alive" it was. However while I might try and find some of the map I don't think I'd just run it whole hog - I want this to be my own creation.
@ Plausible reasons: I think I've got some good ideas there. The place is a source of entertainment among other things for a wicked queen, so she's got to have food, libations and sport around. The place hasn't vomitted uncontrollable evil though because of the wards in place over the region, obedience to Mabbe and her dominion and dilligent patrols by the local militia. Still some things get loose from time to time or find their way into the surface ruins level, so that the place does not stagnate.
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I would recommend looking into Undermountain. It has everything you need.Undermountain was very cool, and if I were to create my own mega dungeon, I'd borrow at least a smattering of ideas and themes from there. Ah, I wish I still had that black and purple box...
Re: story revelations, I think a good way to get the party invested in finding out about the dungeon and its origins is to constantly reference stuff that gives them more impetus to delve deeper. Either the carrot (finding hints of megatreasure at the bottom of th megadungeon), or the stick (emerging BBEG, or some other calamity, requires them to go deeper to divert danger to the surface world).
Ah, Undermountain...
I still remember the name of the dead Wizard you find at the beginning where the whole adventuring party was killed. Thanriyon Arkhelt was his name.
I’m a bit late to the party, but thought I’d throw in my $.02.
Most of my experience with Mega Dungeons are from the Ruins of Undermountain – though I did do a bit with the Greyhawk stuff & I’ve heard a bit about Rappan Athuk, I’ve been running an on-again-off-again campaign that started and centered around Undermountain since about 3 months after the original RoU boxed set came out…
Mega Dungeon Properties:
A mega dungeon is more than just a big hole in the ground with “EVEN MOAR Zombies!”, though the size of the mega dungeon is important. Not only is the actual size of the dungeon important to get that the “mega” part across, but the scope of the encounters within it. Multiple types of thematic encounters are important, and woven so that if they are not written to directly complement each other, then they are at least compatible with each other without completely destroying any hints of verisimilitude. This should be a place where you don’t just have one BBEG with his minion servitors, but more like a half dozen, some perhaps not even aware (except peripherally) of the existence of many of the others. Scale should assist in making sure that the PCs appreciate the scope of just how much STUFF is going on in the mega dungeon. Scope should include multiple plotlines and subplots (more on that below), but most of all should let it be obvious that there’s more than just one “get the widget / prisoner” or “beat up the badguy” thing going on in the area and that the denizens may not even consider whatever it is that brings the PCs there very important.
To clarify the difference in context: scale = how geographically significant the mega dungeon is ; scope = how many different things are going on within that area which may have absolutely nothing to do with each other or may be stacked on each other like a house of cards awaiting PC action to get everything in motion.
A generally over-arching plotline is a good way to start and will give you the most oomph for your mega dungeon.
Don’t let that be the only thing going on, though. Side plots and other “distractions” can go a long way to keep your PCs from getting burned out on your main plotline, especially if they invest OOP years in the in play area.
For added verisimilitude, I would recommend adding things that the BBEG & those involved in your plotline would not have considered. Maybe there is ore in the area or intentionally planted rumors of ore from greedy landowners. Maybe there was a teleport mishap which ended up delivering something almost as bad or worse than your BBEG to the area. Etc. etc. Point is to make sure that while the DM may be omniscient in their game world, those who dwell there rarely are and it’s usually good to find minor ways to illustrate this. This has the secondary effect of keeping the “us vs. the dm” mindset down as well when the players realize that the NPCs can make “what was I thinking?” sorts of mistakes as well.
Continuing with the scope bit I mentioned above, one of the things that sets a mega dungeon apart from another random, but large hole in the ground is the various “ecologies” which may occur. This can be as simple as having a group of goblins that come & go, some ghouls that try to eat them when they’re around and the various oozes, slimes & cubes which clean up after everything or could be as complicated as generational borders, blood-feuds, and mobile magical wards which enforce various “turfs”. The key is to make sure that when they are all held up together and viewed in context, some sort of consistent pattern can emerge (even if it’s insane).
This goes a long way towards both long-term immersion and in assisting PCs in less combat intensive problem solving solutions, such as trying to play factions off of each other or pretending to represent one faction diplomatically when entering the faction of another, or even using their prior victories as a way to intimidate or garner favor from those in the area.
It should be nigh-impossible for PCs to “clear” a mega dungeon without incredible effort. When one sort of predator is cleared out, either other predators or more “prey” should show up to replace them. It may be that the replacements are even worse for PCs than what was cleared out.
A good mega dungeon should support characters being able to come and go several times and not know exactly what it is they will encounter when they return, but perhaps be able to guess based on the actions that they performed the first time through. If the PCs clear out a guard post, there should be replacement guards to repopulate the area and maybe better alarms, signal whistles and traps the second time through. If the PCs successfully bribed their way past a group of ogres the first time, the same ogres should anticipate a similar reaction the next time through or should be replaced by another creature because the ogres (from their POV) robbed the PCs blind and have gone off to become sheep farmers with their new found wealth.
When writing, keep in mind (or better yet, on paper) what alternatives could exist in the area and what changes may be noticeable to the PCs after conflict resolution (usually combat).
Apologies for the long, rambly post, but one last thing: Keep copious notes! Especially if you intend to use the same inplay venue for years to come. PCs remembering “oh yea, I’m the one that put the chalk ‘careful, pit trap with a gelatinous cube’ warning over there!” goes a long way towards tying your game into a campaign.
-TimD
@ TimD: I agree w/almost everything. I don't know if I get what you're saying about having many BBEGs. I get having multi plots and subplots and second it, but the BBEGs...
Didn't Undermountain have Halister? My megadungeon has Queen Mabbe as the impetus for it all, like the mad builder of Undermountain. However if you're talking about people just a step below her, then yes I agree.
My plan is to have several factions; some good, some evil, and some neutral. Each has a major or minor role for being there - something they intend to get out of their involvement in all this foolishness.
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If your megadungeon is going to serve as a home to any number of humanoids, you're definitely going to need a megacrapper, probably also some kind of mega waste disposal area. In fact, a level of the dungeon that serves as a communal landfill would be awesome. You could fill it with otyughs, oozes and vermin or maybe even come up with a Wasteborn template for monsters that have adapted to living in garbage.
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If your megadungeon is going to serve as a home to any number of humanoids, you're definitely going to need a megacrapper, probably also some kind of mega waste disposal area. In fact, a level of the dungeon that serves as a communal landfill would be awesome. You could fill it with otyughs, oozes and vermin or maybe even come up with a Wasteborn template for monsters that have adapted to living in garbage.
Or a one way portal to the elemental plane of fire where all waste is incinerated.
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That's not nearly as much fun as a dungeon level covered from floor to ceiling in trash.
The World's Largest Dungeon has something similar to the plane of fire thing though. Instead of a portal however, it's just a deep hole with a permanent Disintegration effect that goes off every 10 or so minutes. There's nothing remarkable about the hole to tip adventurers off so anyone climbing in to take 20 searching the entire thing for secret doors is bound to be in there when the disintegration effect goes off.
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That sounds adorable and would make for a funny encounter, but I was thinking the humanoids and some monstrous humanoids would likely be the ones with the areas they use as toilets. At the very least, they might have slaves or weak members of the tribe collect their waste and remove it from their lair (maybe they carry it over to another tribe's area and dispose of it there ^_^) It's unlikely even orcs would just let that stuff build up around their homes.
One thing i've seen almost done in alot of mods i've seen. Is just a random corpse. Heal is a seldom used skill, but could be one way a divine caster lacking party may be able to tell something about how he died. Well, except perhaps the head removing post-mortem... or smashed beyond recognition...
and make sure the party knows how they are going to sleep.... and if they sleep in armour....
I think a megadungeon needs several entrances, to allow rival monsters/organizations to enter independently/unnoticed. Some entrances should also be secret.
Otherwise, make sure it is self-sustained in a logical manner.
All skills can should be useful, always. but especially in a megadungeon, especially if that's the entirety of their travels
Choice is an important element in dungeon design (not just superdungeons, even smaller dungeons can benefit from this). Descending into a truly deep, dark mystery can be a thrilling experience but it should be more than a railed ride through Space Mountain. Rather, players should be able to make meaningful choices about how they attack the dungeon -- from the very beginning, and at many places through the dungeon.
Start it off by having multiple ways into the dungeon. For example, let's take a classic: A wizard build a dungeon into a mountain.
In our case, you want to create a meaningful choice about how the players begin their expedition. In my opinion, at least two of them should be apparent choices but more may (should?) exist.
The wizard had a grand entrance, meant for all public use. A very large, ornate archway rings the front of his redoubt, large enough to allow the free movement of his giant servants and the carts full of spoils they won from terrorizing nearby towns. An impressive affair, it was always visibly guarded to deter any would-be attackers -- but it also had an array of magical defenses designed to thwart any adventurers or crusaders that saw visible sentries as a mere invitation to form an attack plan.
Since the disappearance, the mountain has experienced some earthquakes and a face of the mountain has fallen away, exposing hallways that once ran parallel to the mountain's surface. There is nearly a sheer drop below this face, but sparse vegetation might help climbers willing to take the risk.
The wizard once kept an aerie of flying creatures at his disposal -- perhaps as shock troops, perhaps even as mounts if they were large enough. They went wild after he left and rule themselves, waging attacks on settlements for their livestock as they wish; but their perch is accessible only by flight or by fighting through the complex below. Because of this, the locals have no choice but to tolerate the beasts' existence, scrambling to organize token defenses of archers when they appear on the horizon so the creatures don't get too confident about robbing the villages full-time.
Bam! You immediately have choices almost from the opening paragraph. Do you risk walking through a front entrance? It's likely to alert whoever lives there, and may be defended or trapped -- of course, perhaps previous adventurers have already disarmed the traps. Or you could risk climbing up the cliff-face to enter the exposed halls. You could even fly up and explore the aerie. But perhaps you're a cautious adventurer that thinks that mountain needs a good searching over, to make sure there aren't even more secret tunnels inside ...
Multi-entrances and other meaningful choices...check. I've got the first level as a ruined manor that at one time was walled and protected. It was only a manor, not a grand castle, and was arranged around a cloister. The entrances then are through a wood which at one time was an orchard and gardens but has gone wild and is now under the purview of the fey, but this path takes you down into the kitchens below the small barraks; the main entry through the front door has the easiest access but is watched from an intact and stable battery tower - within the tower dwells a powerful and enigmatic fetchling wizard known only as the Gray Man; and then there is a ruined great hall and tower sitting up on a sheer cliff - braving a tough climb leads the party to goblin-infested ruins exposed through several collapsed grand archways which at one time had been windows.
Now of course, once into the dungeons they'll have the chance to communicate with the various factions for information or work with them to achieve goals. I also have a concept that the factions w/in the dungeon might offer quests to the PCs just as much as the folks in town would. For example there is an accessible sub-level to the first level of ruins. This area is a series of family crypts. The party will be told that this is off limits by the local lord but haunting the ruins is a ghost who pleads for anyone she meets to lay her to rest beside her beloved...in the crypts.
As for skill use I'm all for it. I want the place to be as epic as possible so there will be plenty of places for skill use and perhaps even extended skill challenges. The way I run traps is more than just "roll to detect...now roll to disarm. Ok, moving on..." I try and make them dynamic encounters and borrowed the idea to make them like Haunts, in that if the PCs trigger one I call for an immediate Perception check; anyone who detects the trap gets a sense of what's happening and rolls an initiative. The trap goes at initiative 10 so the PC(s) who have an action in this surprise round can still attempt SOMETHING to either mitigate or negate the effect.
What frequency of random encounters do you all use? Do you even use random encounters? These seem to have been a staple of megadungeons from my youth but have apparently dropped off in popularity.
Finally...waste. Barring having a men's, women's and "other" door in potty halls, I've got slimes and vermin to help with these problems, plus collection and disposal points. I'm just not the kind of GM that gets into levels of trash anymore, though I have on 2 occasions adapted the Junkions for homebrew games with such levels in them. This was way before I knew what a Warforged was.
Let me know what you all think of random encounter frequency.
@ TimD: I agree w/almost everything. I don't know if I get what you're saying about having many BBEGs. I get having multi plots and subplots and second it, but the BBEGs...
Didn't Undermountain have Halister? My megadungeon has Queen Mabbe as the impetus for it all, like the mad builder of Undermountain. However if you're talking about people just a step below her, then yes I agree.
The point of most any Undermountain Campaign was not to defeat Hallister and he rarely actually directly interacted with PCs. He was more a horrific plot device than a direct antagonist.
Multiple BBEG's are for the purposes of plot arcs - if the PCs had to defeat or oppose Trobriand then their activities in Skullport were unlikely to be directly affected by that arc due to the scope of Undermountain. If PCs decided that they wanted to try to "clean up" Skullport, that would have little to no effect on the Wyllowwood.
Hopefully that makes a bit more sense.
-TimD