Large Bastard Sword Question

[WafflePieCake]

Is a character who is proficient with martial weapons able to wield a Large Bastard Sword as a martial weapon (2-handed) WITHOUT the exotic weapon proficiency? Or does the character need to take the 'exotic weapon proficiency: bastard sword' feat in order to use the large version 2-handed?

[Lab_Rat]

Can not wield it at all without the exotic weapon proficiency feat. If they have the exotic weapon proficiency then they can wield it two-handed with a -2 attack roll penalty.

[WafflePieCake]

If I have Titan Mauler archetype for Barbarian and have the Jotungrip ability active, is it possible to wield it with one hand? (assuming I have the exotic weapon proficiency feat)

[Pirate Rob]

Lab_Rat wrote:

Can not wield it at all without the exotic weapon proficiency feat. If they have the exotic weapon proficiency then they can wield it two-handed with a -2 attack roll penalty.

Actually, I believe without exotic proficiency it can still be wielded in 2 hands, just with -2 from size and -4 from non-proficency.

You may do better in the rules section of the forums, as your questions do not seem PFS specific.

[WafflePieCake]

The Bastard Sword description says it can be wielded as a martial weapon with 2 hands. So if I have a character that is proficient with ALL martial weapons, would I still have the -4 non-proficiency penalty?

Thanks for the heads up, I'll see if I can get an answer over there too.

[Brian Lefebvre]

If you don't have EWP: bastard sword the medium sword is 2handed and then progresses to unwieldable at large size. In order for a medium creature to use a large bastard sword they need the EWP feat. Allowing them to use the 1handed to 2handed progression steps.

Jotungrip would not function for a large sword. it specifically states the weapon must be appropriately sized to the wielder. medium wielder = medium 2handed weapon in 1 hand. This would work on a medium bastard sword for someone without the EWP, but at the normal jotungrip penalty.

Massive weapons will eventually negate the -2 penalty for using a large weapon, but still does not have language allowing you to ignore the light>1handed>2handed>unwieldable progression.

[WafflePieCake]

Brian Lefebvre wrote:

If you don't have EWP: bastard sword the medium sword is 2handed and then progresses to unwieldable at large size. In order for a medium creature to use a large bastard sword they need the EWP feat. Allowing them to use the 1handed to 2handed progression steps.

Jotungrip would not function for a large sword. it specifically states the weapon must be appropriately sized to the wielder. medium wielder = medium 2handed weapon in 1 hand. This would work on a medium bastard sword for someone without the EWP, but at the normal jotungrip penalty.

Massive weapons will eventually negate the -2 penalty for using a large weapon, but still does not have language allowing you to ignore the light>1handed>2handed>unwieldable progression.

Ah, ok. Thank you for clearing that up.

[Jeffrey Fox]

WafflePieCake wrote:

The Bastard Sword description says it can be wielded as a martial weapon with 2 hands. So if I have a character that is proficient with ALL martial weapons, would I still have the -4 non-proficiency penalty?

Thanks for the heads up, I'll see if I can get an answer over there too.

The Bastard Sword is a One Handed Exotic Melee Weapon. With the special feature that if you wield it in two hands you can treat it as a martial weapon.

Increasing the size of a weapon does not change the proficiency required to use that weapon.

So a large Bastard Sword is a One Handed Exotic Weapon sized for large creatures. It also has the special ability that if you wield it in two hands you can treat it as a martial weapon.

It is never a two handed martial weapon, just like a long sword wielded in two hands is not a two handed martial weapon.

So by the RAW a medium character only needs martial weapon proficiency to wield a large bastard sword because the medium character can only hold it in two hands.

Now this was probably not intended to be the way the RAW works, but until a developer faq's the issue or adds "sized appropriately for the character" clause to the two handed special ability it's the way it is.

Expect table variation as well because not every GM agrees with the RAW here.

[TwilightKnight]

According to the section on inappropriately sized weapons a weapon that requires two hands, such as a bastard sword without exotic proficiency, would go up one step if it was one size category larger than the wielder. Thus a large bastard sword becomes unusable by a medium user unless they have exotic proficiency.

This topic has been discussed numerous times in the past and there is a clearly defined example provided by the designers. Amiri, the iconic barbarian, has a large-sized bastard sword with the exotic weapon proficiency. Otherwise, she would not be able to use it.

As someone said above, Jotungrip doesn't help because it specifies the weapon must be size appropriate for the ability to function.

[Vendle]

There is another thread about the Titan Mauler archetype where the creator said his intention was to allow for larger weapon use, but he overlooked the weapon sizing rules (thus the limitation still hampers the titan mauler as much as anyone else). I recommend houserule until an official fix is made.

[TGMaxMaxer]

This comes up about once a month.

The Iconic Amiri is not relevant to the raw. Otherwise you could take imp crit katana at level 7, just like the iconic samurai.

The Bastard sword, is a 1 handed exotic weapon for whatever creature it is sized for. Period. No-exceptions. If you use a Bastard sword, sized for you, in 1 hand, without the EWP, you take a -4. Thats it.

If you use a Bastard sword, in 2 hands, without the EWP, but with martial prof., you don't take the -4. Period. That's it.

The above rules have NOTHING to do with the following rules. Nothing.

If you use a weapon of a different size, you take a cumulative -2 for each step, and each step up the size chain requires 1 more hand to wield. Thus, a 1HANDED weapon, like a longsword, dwarven waraxe, battleaxe, or bastard sword, requires 2HANDS to use by a medium creature when sized for a large creature, at a penalty of -2. This is the RAW. That's it.

Now, you have to combine the two.

For a longsword:
martial prof. medium creature, medium weapon, 1hand, no penalty.
No prof, medium creature, medium weapon, 1 hand, -4(prof) penalty.
Medium creature, large weapon, with martial prof. 2 hands, -2(size) penalty.
Medium creature, large weapon, without martial prof. 2 hands, -6 penalty (-4 prof -2 size)

Bastard Sword:
EWP, medium creature, medium weapon, 1 hand, no penalty.
martial prof. medium creature, medium weapon, 2hand, no penalty.
No prof, medium creature, medium weapon, 1 hand, -4 penalty(prof).
EWP, medium creature, large weapon, 2hand, -2 penalty(size)
Medium creature, large weapon, with martial prof. 2 hands, -2(size) penalty.
Medium creature, large weapon, without martial prof. 2 hands, -6 penalty (-4 prof -2 size)

The ability to negate the penalty by using two hands does not, ever, change the weapons listing to anything but 1 handed exotic.

If any -developer- has ever stated otherwise, please link. Otherwise, homerule it in your games, but don't holdover from older editions when advising people of the actual rules.

[Jeffrey Fox]

TwilightKnight wrote:

According to the section on inappropriately sized weapons a weapon that requires two hands, such as a bastard sword without exotic proficiency, would go up one step if it was one size category larger than the wielder. Thus a large bastard sword becomes unusable by a medium user unless they have exotic proficiency.

That's not what the rules say.

The Rules Say wrote:

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.

A bastard sword is always a one handed exotic weapon, in no chart in any book does it appear as a two handed weapon. So no, it does not become unusable when it becomes large.

A Bastard sword never requires two hands at medium, never. A medium sized character can wield a bastard sword one handed without exotic weapon proficiency, albeit at a -4 penalty.

The special feature of the bastard sword, counting as a martial weapon when used with two hands, does not change by the size of the weapon any more than a trip or performance weapon ability would change when a weapon changes size.

Also using a weapon with two hands and using a Two handed weapon are not the same by RAW.

Using a weapon with two hands is when you use a one handed weapon in two hands [like the longsword.]

Using a Two Handed Weapon is when you wield a weapon from the two handed section of the table.

Now that's just what the RAW says, and frankly I don't think they intended that, but intentions has no bearing on PFS.

And Amiri's stat block bears no bearing because stat blocks aren't always correct, and they sometimes take things for flavor rather than need.

[ryric]

While I think that RAI is that the Large sword requires EWP to wield, I am swayed by the RAW arguments presented here that it is not currently the case. I would advise against building a PFS society character based on any "controversial" ruling/interpretation, however, for two reasons. One, you may find your character suddenly errataed out of existence, if developers/PFS staff notice the rule and decide to "fix" it. Two, it's generally not a good idea to invite a rules argument with a large proportion of the PFS GMs you sit down with, even if you're right and they're wrong. It just delays the game and isn't really fun for anybody.

[TGMaxMaxer]

Besides. A Dwarf can wield a large Dwarven Waraxe that does 2d8/x3 with just martial profs in 2hands, and it's been shown by the math that 2d8/x3 ~ to 2d8/19-20x2.

2d6 greatsword vs 2d8 bastard sword, for a -2 to hit, is +2 damage on average. (3.5x2 vs 4.5x2) -2 to hit for +2 damage is in general, a bad trade. by the time that you can ignore the hit penalty, you're usually killin somethin so fast the +2 damage only really matters in the DPR olympics not an actual game.

[Shinigaze]

Oh god not this argument again! Suffice it to say that due to wording the RAW is yes but the obvious RAI is no. James Jacobs has weighed in on this and said that you need EWP to wield a large bastard sword with two hands but as he is not an actual designer and just a creative director most people don't accept his rulings if they disagree with it.