RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Do you have a source?I hear his source is the Minnesota--Anoka Venture Lieutenant.
Short answer: Yeah, and?
Longer answer: I see the little title, I just want to know if this is an official ruling that can be referenced/added to the FAQ or guide or if this is his off the cuff pronouncement.
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Do you have a source?If you are applying the chronicle to a brand new 1st level character and modifying the gold to 500gp. Then the boons apply to that 1st level character.
If however, you are applying the chronicle to an active character that is not yet high enough level to accept that chronicle, then you apply any rewards, including boons, from that chronicle at the time you are able to apply it to the character.
In other words, a 5th level character could not get a boon from a Tier 7-11 scenario until they reach 7th level (the level in which they apply the pregen played chronicle to the character).
You may also opt instead to apply the credit from the non-1st-level pregenerated character played to a newly created
character with the gp gained reduced to 500 gp (or 250
for characters using the slow advancement track). You
do not lose access to Prestige Points, boons, and items
listed on the Chronicle sheet that were earned during
the adventure.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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@Sniggvert,
Thank you for the documentation, I'm reading that as the PC would get the boon at first level. Is that how you're reading it?
(And yes, the GM would get it at the 1500 level, I'd assume)
If it is, then maybe I read Andrew incorrectly.
The GM would get the level of boon for the sub-tier he applied. If his character for GM credit is 8th level, he applies sub-tier 8-9, and will get the 3,000gp item. If the character is 5th level he applies sub-tier 5-6 and gets the 1,500gp item. If the character is 7th level he's supposed to take the lower sub-tier.
That is my understanding.
And it makes the 1st level application a pretty ridiculous cherry pick. I'd actually suspect the motives of anyone playing this with a pregen.
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@Sniggvert,
Thank you for the documentation, I'm reading that as the PC would get the boon at first level. Is that how you're reading it?
(And yes, the GM would get it at the 1500 level, I'd assume)
If it is, then maybe I read Andrew incorrectly.
Yeah, the PC playing a level 7 pregen, applying the chronicle to a new character, would get the boon at 1st level right out of the bat, as this chronicle has to be the first one applied to the new character.
The GM would get the boon based on whatever level his character actually is when the boon gets applied as Drogon mentions.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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@Sniggvert,
Thank you for the documentation, I'm reading that as the PC would get the boon at first level. Is that how you're reading it?
(And yes, the GM would get it at the 1500 level, I'd assume)
If it is, then maybe I read Andrew incorrectly.
The GM would get the level of boon for the sub-tier he applied. If his character for GM credit is 8th level, he applies sub-tier 8-9, and will get the 3,000gp item. If the character is 5th level he applies sub-tier 5-6 and gets the 1,500gp item. If the character is 7th level he's supposed to take the lower sub-tier.
That is my understanding.
And it makes the 1st level application a pretty ridiculous cherry pick. I'd actually suspect the motives of anyone playing this with a pregen.
Don't always blame malice. My roommate will likely come this Saturday, and her only character just hit second level. I'm the only GM and running this scenario. She's wanting to build a sorcerer too. I can see her running the iconic wizard (or the level 7 Seoni from the NPC Guide) and then going "Can I apply this to a new sorcerer?" No malice, no metagaming, just the eagerness of a new player.
(Now me, I might do it for purely greedy reason with a GM credit, but if I did, even if I ran the party at the high tier, my conscience wouldn't let me put a 3K GP item on a 1st level character).
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Don't always blame malice.
It would be purely a knee-jerk reaction. I certainly wouldn't call your friend out on it. But, locally there would be no reason to ever play it with a pre-gen (you should ALWAYS be able to find a scenario in-tier that you can play). If anyone approached me locally with the desire to play this with a pre-gen, I'd sure as hell give him the stink eye.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Don't always blame malice.It would be purely a knee-jerk reaction. I certainly wouldn't call your friend out on it. But, locally there would be no reason to ever play it with a pre-gen (you should ALWAYS be able to find a scenario in-tier that you can play). If anyone approached me locally with the desire to play this with a pre-gen, I'd sure as hell give him the stink eye.
I understand. Part of the reason I asked about it is to make sure I wasn't misreading it in a beneficial way.
Right now we get one table with the Guardtower. (I'd rather organize at Packrat, same distance, and they're old friends). At Ravenstone we've had two tables every AM we play there, at least.
Also there's a local con this weekend, so I'd be short tabled either way. I'm going to explain her options and let her go from there.
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By the way, even if a brand-new PC got the boon for a 3,000gp item, wouldn't said item still need to conform to Fame-related item ownership rules? (Don't have it in front of me, so forgive me if the boon says something about that.)
Pretty sure this item is a bonus and not purchased, so it ignores those rules per the details in the boon. This decision may have been so that the same hypothetical level 8 character with 4 prestige who is high-fiving everyone over finding that awesome Cloak of Resistance +2 or the like on an 8-9 chronicle sheet wouldn't be able to get an appropriate item from the boon either.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The scenario explictly exempts the item from the Fame rules. Since a 6th or 7th level PC is almost certainly going to have the Fame for a piddly little 3000 gp item, I thought this was sort of officiousness, but this thread has made me realize that brand new PCs can get that boon, and that must be the intention behind that explicit exemption in the scenario.
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Do you have a source?If you are applying the chronicle to a brand new 1st level character and modifying the gold to 500gp. Then the boons apply to that 1st level character.
If however, you are applying the chronicle to an active character that is not yet high enough level to accept that chronicle, then you apply any rewards, including boons, from that chronicle at the time you are able to apply it to the character.
In other words, a 5th level character could not get a boon from a Tier 7-11 scenario until they reach 7th level (the level in which they apply the pregen played chronicle to the character).
Well, if you can't assign a chronicle to a character until he's the level of the pregen played, what makes you think anything on that chronicle would be applied to the character until after the chronicle is actually applied?
And, secondly, what makes you think anything on the chronicle the pregen earned would not be applied, if the chronicle is legally applied to a character? The only modification to a chronicle the guide covers, is changing the gold to 500gp.
So basically what I'm saying is, the lack of a source stating explicitly the opposite of what I've said, and what actually is said in the guide about using a pregen, would basically be the source I'm using.
Common sense folks.
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Do you have a source?I hear his source is the Minnesota--Anoka Venture Lieutenant.Short answer: Yeah, and?
Longer answer: I see the little title, I just want to know if this is an official ruling that can be referenced/added to the FAQ or guide or if this is his off the cuff pronouncement.
Doesn't need to be in the FAQ or guide.
The guide tells you how to deal with a pregen and its chronicle.
The only clarification I can see that needs to be made, is whether you can use the gold and PP obtained on a high level chronicle to help absolve a pregen death.
Otherwise, reading the information literally, it works the way I explained.
I'm not sure how anyone would think (or need clarification of) you could get something off a chronicle that you haven't actually applied to a character yet.
And I'm not sure how you could interpret the changing of a chronicle to 500gp as anything but exactly that. That's the only change the guide states needs to be made.
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@Sniggvert,
Thank you for the documentation, I'm reading that as the PC would get the boon at first level. Is that how you're reading it?
(And yes, the GM would get it at the 1500 level, I'd assume)
If it is, then maybe I read Andrew incorrectly.
How is what I said not exactly what the quote from the guide said?
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Don't always blame malice.It would be purely a knee-jerk reaction. I certainly wouldn't call your friend out on it. But, locally there would be no reason to ever play it with a pre-gen (you should ALWAYS be able to find a scenario in-tier that you can play). If anyone approached me locally with the desire to play this with a pre-gen, I'd sure as hell give him the stink eye.
I know that if I'm running the table, or coordinating the game day, and I know the player has a character of that level, I would not allow them to play a pregen instead.
We also (unless its a new player who wants to try things out) don't allow people to sign up for events unless they have a character that fits the events levels.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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@Andrew, damp your heat please.
As I said, I misread you. I read it as you saying "Apply the sheet to the new character w/500 gold, then when they hit the level of the pregen, they get the boon."
That's why I was asking for a source. When Sniggevert posted the section from the GtOP, it clicked.
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Yeah, just ask Grandmaster Tor- oh, wait...Also, what is the insentive for, well pretty much anyone to want to go in and get her?Pathfinders take care of their own.
That's knd of my point. Why would anyone besides maybe a Grand Lodge player actually want to rescue her, and even that is knd of metagamey iffy.
Andoran: Finally, B&^%$# gets what she deserved. After that painting, last time, I'd even call this divine justice at it's best. Oh, you are saying I can go free her, from her rightful punishemnt, by her own country's will, break any sort of notion of freedom, order, justice, and well goodness, and go rescue a non-pathfinder that we all hate with a passion, just because. [pimp smack over the back of the head] Venture-Captin _______ [/pimp smack over the back of the head].
Cheliax: "Hey, sometimes even we LN = actully NE guys can do something right", and that means there is a new position open, one possiby even more friendly to the Society. . ."
Osirion: "All tings end. Such a failed legacy for her people, I doubt a single tear would be shed."
Qadira: "Maybe now we can have someone that thinks more with the brain in their head than the one in their pants. I foresee a brightr day coming when our two great empires might finally begin to indulge in some honest trade, free from, how shall we say, ruled by her emotions.."
Taldor: "No idea what your talking about. Can we get on to something important, please, and stop trivializing over some harlot . . .".
Lantern lodge: "Will the next one has any sense of honor or propriety? If so, than there will be much less interesting times that we might all prosper and grow strong. Cetainly, the bar is low, and it could likely not get any worse, . . . for anyone."
Grand Lodge: "Yes, master. . . . Yes, my master. (like 500 other "yes master's in there) "Yes, it will be done. For the knowledge we will lock up and hide for the world, I will die before I let some unrelated at all, in a anyway, nonPathfinder vanish, because the Decem. wills it!!!" Grand Lodge: "Sometimes when you play the game, you lose. She just couldn't handle the heat in her own kitchen, and broke rule number 1, if not 0 in the Society. She burnt all her bridges, tried to play her games with the wrong person, and well, there comes a time when we all lose. Sometimes there is just no saving some people and we can't risk others on the chance se might even still be alive."
Sczarni: "While I usually like that sort of combination of incompetence, openness, if you know what I mean, <nudge, nudge>, and position of power in my women, Zarta just wasn't good for business, for anyone."
Shadow Lodge: "Perfect example of the problem. She was, the man. She had no issues sending others, younger Pathfinders, like yourselves, to their deaths for her little personal causes, her personal gain. How many died, or suffered injury, so that her little childish games might appease her for another night. We look out for our own here, and to hell with Zarta and anyone like her! "
Silver Crusade: "A small victory in the never-ending war against the forces of evil and cruelty we have united and sworn to face. Like Zarta, one day, all of the evils of Cheliax shall fall, and no one, not a one, will remember her name, either."
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@Andrew, damp your heat please.
As I said, I misread you. I read it as you saying "Apply the sheet to the new character w/500 gold, then when they hit the level of the pregen, they get the boon."
That's why I was asking for a source. When Sniggevert posted the section from the GtOP, it clicked.
No heat. Perhaps I need to start using emoticons or something.
Glad that everything is clear for you now.
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(Now me, I might do it for purely greedy reason with a GM credit, but if I did, even if I ran the party at the high tier, my conscience wouldn't let me put a 3K GP item on a 1st level character).
This wouldn't actually work with GM credit though. It's different rules for applying your GM chronicles. The character that has a GM chronicle gets the reward based on what level the character is when the chronicle is applied. (i.e. 5th-7th level character gets the subtier 5-6 reward and 8th-9th level character gets the subtier 8-9 reward).
If you apply the GM credit chronicle to a 1st (through 4th) level character, the character doesn't get anything from the chronicle until he/she actually levels to 5th, and then see above.
It's an oddity that's going to happen with higher level pregens, as they try to add boons/items to chronicles that matter more to players, as the player base has been clamoring for for awhile now.
I wouldn't sweat it too much personally, as it's just a single item on one character. YMMV.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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@Andrew
Re: Level appropriate.
Interesting... I look at it more as the 'play play play' Worst that happens is it's a 'harmless death'. As long as everyone has fun, that's what matters. If we can get more tables and GMs, that's great. Again, on when we're on the NE side, we normally have two tables on Saturdays.
(Also amusingly, Packrat and Guardtower are the stores clear on the other side of town for me)
And sorry if I was inferring more 'heat' than you were putting in your posts.
@Devil's Advocate.
It really can go either way.
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It really can go either way.
Maybe. I could be wrong, but I don't think really anyone actually likes her, (in or out of game) and in my opinion, (that's all it is), it seems a massive stretch. Also, is she actually unjustly imprisoned? I was under the impresson she was both justly and rightfully imprisoned, (which also made me question if a Paladin of most Lawful Clerics might risk falling) if this where not so much of a plot device, kind of handwaving for PFS play.
I ment those as a joke, but I'm honestly trying to find reasons why players would want to risk themselves going after her. Again, I could be wrong, it just doesn't really make too much sense as a premise. I flt the same way about The Disappeared, and that really just fell flat, (for a lot of reasons).
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Well I can say for Dexios, the idea of arguing law, and presenting falsified evidence, to the hellknights as a tiefling lawyer would be too good to pass up.
The idea of a Chelaxian Paracountess owing a tiefling priceless.
Shame I wasn't more 'with it' to milk it for the RP fun. I will be this Saturday, to run a disheveled parcountess, still trying to be that cocky arrogant female dog.
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@Andrew
Re: Level appropriate.
Interesting... I look at it more as the 'play play play' Worst that happens is it's a 'harmless death'. As long as everyone has fun, that's what matters. If we can get more tables and GMs, that's great. Again, on when we're on the NE side, we normally have two tables on Saturdays.(Also amusingly, Packrat and Guardtower are the stores clear on the other side of town for me)
And sorry if I was inferring more 'heat' than you were putting in your posts.
No Issues.
Interestingly enough, I only really recall the Guardtower and Soldiery when I lived there. Of course living on campus the Soldiery was the easiest trip for me, as I could walk the 5 miles there (and often did).
We actually have more game stores than we know what to do with in Minneapolis/St. Paul. We have like 11 in the greater footprint, and then within an hour or so, probably 20 total.
Right now we have 2-4 tables every Saturday in Southeast Minneapolis at Tower Games, 4-6 tables every Sunday in Roseville (St. Paul) at The Source, 2-4 tables once a month for a double header on every 2nd Saturday in Anoka at Village Games, 1-3 tables every 1st and 3rd Sunday for high level play in Roseville at Fantasy Flight Games Event Center, 1-2 tables every other Saturday evening in White Bear Township at Your Mom's Basement, 2-4 tables every other Thursday evening in Roseville at Fantasy Flight Games Event center, and finally the other every other Thursday evening (and some Sunday afternoons) 1-2 tables in Burnsville at Legion Games.
So since there are always several low level tables going on during our high level days, and the two venues are literally 10 minutes apart, we refer the low level players to the other venue. To date, only one player has flipped a wig about this, but he wanted to play his home brew character and didn't want to play by Society rules.
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Oh SNAP.Also, is she actually unjustly imprisoned?Yes, via the forged evidence you and the gang failed to locate in The Disappeared. :)
Interesting. I have played through that scenario again for no credit, because someone needed an extra body, and I didn't get that info/impression from that game either. It is one scenario I don't have, so I guess I have a very wrong impression of what is going on there.
Having glanced through a tiny bit of this one, I see that there are some motivations presented, which was my question.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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The verbiage of the (Sczarni) faction mission is terrible.
I agree. This actually created all sorts of problems at our table when we played it. We had a Sczarni in our group, and while we were discussing amongst ourselves the possibility of bargaining with the prisoner (he wanted his freedom in exchange for information) the player of the Sczarni stated, ooc, that he was going to kill the prisoner.
At this point I lost it. The character had already caused us some problems earlier on (by mouthing off to the Hellknight officials), and I flat out accused the player of forgetting the "Cooperate!" part of the PFS guidelines, and basically trying to sabotage the overall mission.
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The verbiage of the (Sczarni) faction mission is terrible.I agree. This actually created all sorts of problems at our table when we played it. We had a Sczarni in our group, and while we were discussing amongst ourselves the possibility of bargaining with the prisoner (he wanted his freedom in exchange for information) the player of the Sczarni stated, ooc, that he was going to kill the prisoner.
At this point I lost it. The character had already caused us some problems earlier on (by mouthing off to the Hellknight officials), and I flat out accused the player of forgetting the "Cooperate!" part of the PFS guidelines, and basically trying to sabotage the overall mission.
My Scarzni told the Andoran that he was formerly a slaver who had joined the Hell Knights in an attempt to leave his past behind. The Andoran still almost set him free, but I felt clever at the time at least.
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Shush your mouth! My Zon-Kuthon worshipping Tattooed Sorcerer of the Void was thrilled to be able to rescue the Paracountess:I knew her first priority would be to look presentable upon her release, so I went shopping for noble outfits and the appropriate jewelry for her station. I wasn't certain how well fed she would be during her incarceration, so I picked up three outfits of different sizes, just to be safe.
As an Arbiter of the Gate, I was able to easily navigate the proper channels to secure her release. My companions were dismayed at the prospect of entering hell, but I was overjoyed, because how romantic is that? We were the few who could say that we walked into hell to release her from her unfair imprisonment.
When all was said and done, she showed her gratitude by sending me an engraved mithral waffle maker. I shall carry it with me from here on.
Uh...dude...that's *not* a waffle maker.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Ran this Saturday. Some notes.
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The verbiage of the (Sczarni) faction mission is terrible.
I agree. This actually created all sorts of problems at our table when we played it. We had a Sczarni in our group, and while we were discussing amongst ourselves the possibility of bargaining with the prisoner (he wanted his freedom in exchange for information) the player of the Sczarni stated, ooc, that he was going to kill the prisoner.At this point I lost it. The character had already caused us some problems earlier on (by mouthing off to the Hellknight officials), and I flat out accused the player of forgetting the "Cooperate!" part of the PFS guidelines, and basically trying to sabotage the overall mission.
For me to do this mission I told the guy I would release him if immediately tried to escape. I casted invisibility on the other prisoner and then told him I would do the same for him. Well he got my wand of vanish and was invisible for 6 seconds as he ran his way into hell knights.
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I'll be running Fortress of the Nail at the end of March and I was struggling a bit with the dialogues of each Hellknight. Anyway, I've come up with some 'conversation starters' below. Naturally, these are in addition to the details of the scenario itself. Any other thoughts or additions are appreciated.
Incidentally, PCs will be given the following evidence from Heidmarch:
- Zarta's travel logs
- Zarta personal note (The one from #4-11 The Disappeared, p.20)
- Prisoner Receipt form (The one from #4-11 The Disappeared, p.21)
Zarta's personal note and the travel logs are, of course, in the same handwriting (both written by Zarta). A skilled linguist is able to deduce that the writer of the Prisoner Receipt form and the Falsified Letters are one and the same. As before, the handwriting style of the travel logs differ to the falsified letters.
Thanks go to Dogon, Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome, and anyone else who unintentionally contributed :)
Role playing with Paravicar Acillmar:
Despite his aggressive statement, Acillmar is more surprised at the Thrune agent’s deception than suspicious of the Pathfinder Society, instinctively becoming defensive and uncivil. PCs will find that diplomacy is effective provided it does not sound patronizing. PCs might preach the inherent virtues of the Pathfinder Society (bluff), or act offended by Acillmar’s suggestion at the Society’s ethics (intimidate). The worst thing the PCs could do is insult House Thrune and fail their diplomacy check [Ed: I figured a diplomacy check seemed fair in this last instance since Acillmar is probably more open to the idea of House Thrune being less-than honourable].
Acillmar is curious at the PCs intentions and simply wants to know why they have an interest in Zarta. A polite explanation (diplomacy) or a stern reminder of his duty (intimidate) works best in this instance. Bluffing that the Paracountess is honourable but only acts salacious deserves a penalty to the bluff check. The worst thing the PCs could do is insult Acillmar’s morality.
“I see that The Disappeared has written a personal note, at the bottom of which is a Chelaxian internal security code. She dares include part of a formal code in a personal diary entry? At best, it is unorthodox. At worst, it implies her guilt! Do you continue to defend her character?”
Even Acillmar knows this last point is rather petty but the compelling case against Zarta Dralneen troubles him. After all, the hellknights may have imprisoned a wrongly accused noblewoman and such an error might besmirch the good name of the Order. PCs would be best served by acting obsequiously, admitting that such a slight is an unfortunate oversight but not seditious in any way (diplomacy) although a well-conceived lie would certainly placate the Paravicar (bluff). Claiming ignorance, whether truthfully or not, is the most unwise thing the PCs could do.
[Ed: In hindsight, not sure if this question works]
Role playing with the Mistress of Blades:
“I’m not entirely sure why I should care that some foppish nobility of Cheliax is imprisoned. Convince me this is worth my time.”
Of course, Vox is aware of her duty but is more interested in what the PCs have to say, and how they say it. [Ed: Might want to allow a DC 20 Sense Motive to get a ‘Hunch’ about this] Diplomacy works well although a creative use of bluff or intimidate would be just as effective. Insulting her by claiming she is not upholding the law is the worst thing the PCs could do.
This is an intentional attempt to goad the PCs. She does not want combat, but wants to see if the PCs have some backbone and the strength of character to preach righteous ideals. She is disappointed by a honeyed response (diplomacy) but is pleased if the party acts indignant and aggressive (intimidate). Boasting, bragging and generally lying (bluff) also helps garner her approval, provided the lie is not entirely unconvincing. An obsequious response is the worst answer the PCs could provide.
Vox dislikes Zarta’s debauched lifestyle, some of which are hinted at in the Travel Logs, and wants to hear the PC’s attempt to justify Zarta’s behaviour. As before, she appreciates boasting, bragging, and even threats -provided they do not insult her combat or commanding abilities- but an eloquent explanation (diplomacy) of Zarta’s hedonism does not offend her. Insulting Vox’s ethics is the worst thing the PCs could do.
Role playing with Lictor DiVitri:
eg: "Who is behind this plot to imprison an innocent noblewoman? or "What motive would a ranking official of House Thrune have to defame Countess Dralneen?"
Unlike the other Hellknights, DiVitri both knows and refers to Zarta by her proper name.
Provided the PCs are polite, honest and not stupid, this should be an easy pass.
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I ran this as a 'Slot 0' this past weekend. Im very new to dming at high Tier (Ie that was my first time) and apart from forgetting a few things in that final battle I dont think it went too badly. I ran at 8-9. I loved the last creature, sadly even the 8d6 wouldnt get through the energy resistance that had just been cast. I did managed to kill the Paladin after the evilness of the plane kicked in and aborted the spell. Could not hit the AC 30+ Fighter at all. Was done in the end by Enervation to the the point where he couldnt hit anything.
I think the combat would of been more deadly if I had remember to use all the feats. I did a lot of prep for this, just appears I could of done even more.
With the roleplaying element, I tried the 'say what your character is doing.. not just rolling the dice'. It worked to an extent. The Sorc was diplomacy major , I tried to engage the Fighter + Cleric in this . It sorta worked.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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@Neil, about the Mistress of Blades...
If you've a character with Profession (barrister) or Linguistics skills, you might want to allow them to aid another with those skills, essentially doing the 'expert witness' thing.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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So does anybody have any thoughts about what the boon for this scenario is good for? By the time a character is at the right level for their tier, they've probably already bought any items worth less than 1500/3000 gp that they want. Some of that values is almost certainly going to waste, since there are few items worth exactly that much, and since the gold reward is reduced by close to the same amount, it feels less like getting something extra, and more like just extra restrictions on how I can spend my gold. That's actually why I'm not keen on running it; it would slow down the wealth progression on whomever I put the chronicle on.
