I am looking at the ninja class.and I realized there isnt a extra ninja trick feat but an extra rogue talent feat which grants ninja tricks?
would it be easier to be say a Knife master and then just take extra ki and extra Talent to get the ninja stuff?
any body tried either option?
assume I roll 4d6 and max out KI points
I am sure it is a crazy idea I tend to actually take feats like extra grit, extra ki ect....
I looked at this and in all honesty, it would be better to go ninja for the extra attack. The rogue version doesn't offer this. The rogue version just seems to be meh when they get the ki pool. they don't really gain anything out of getting a ki pool that works well like the ninja. All in All, it mostly depends on if you can make it work.
The ninja tricks and rogue talents are both listened in Ultimate combat so that the ninja can pick a rogue talent that's not on there ninja tricks and vise versus.
assome I roll 4d6 and max out ki...huh? can you share where you found this...ninjas ki is 1/2 there level + cha bonus. automatically gained at level 2
thiefs ki is talent gain ki @level 2min ki pool=wisdom bonus. whats your wisdom. And the only way too get more ki is too burn a feat ala extra ki for a gain of 2...,
I WOULD ROLL 4D6 AND DROP THE LOWEST??? AND MAX out my wisdom for the KI pool? is that what you are asking?
looking at the rogue talents and greater talents they really dont look that great to me. but i will admit I usually do not play rogue
The ninja gets most of the same rogue talents that the rogue get. BUT they gave the ninja a rogue talent option. I'm pretty sure you can pick this option as much as you want for a different rogue talent that the ninja doesn't know. But I'm not 100% sure, I'm more 80% sure you can. There's also some (or one) talent(s) that bring your sneak attacks that land on 1s to be 2s. and maybe a talent that makes the 2s to 3s.
My wife loves playing rogues, she just rebuilt her character as a 5th level ninja today (she was an oracle/ninja but we hadnt played in two months as she was been working alot and became bored with the character.
After looking at the ninja more closely, I realized there is no evasion for ninja... so that's something to think about. Rogue and monk (and eventually ranger) get evasion, ninja does not.
However ninja definitely seems more combat oriented.
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I'll summarize:
1.) Ninjas don't get evasion but receive a ki pool and the ability to burn the ki for an extra attack at highest BAB. This is excellent for TWF sneak attack builds. Ninjas get plenty of Ki = half base level + char mod.
2.) Rogues get evasion no Ki, have various useful alternate class options and can access all regular ninja tricks.
3.) Ninjas can access rogue talents and all rogue master talents.
4.) Rogues cannot acquire ninja master tricks.
5.) Rogues use feats and gear to enhance their Ki pool. Ninjas will likely just enhance their charisma and/or get a piece of gear to acquire more Ki.
Conclusion: If you really need the Rogue abilities, evasion, and maybe the one or two skills that aren't on the ninja skill list, go rogue, be a human, be sure to have high wisdom OR make sure to use 1-2 pieces of gear that provide Ki. It's easy to get your ki pool to 7-9 even as a rogue, if you just get gear and are prepared to lose the slots/enchantments for that purpose.
Otherwise, ninja is almost hands down better. I convinced my GM to allow me to stay a rogue and get the ki pool, but I don't have access to the master talents until level 15 and have no poison use, etc. I got one perk, which was to use my int or char for my ki pool score, but in retrospect, with the extra feats in pathfinder, I would have been better off simply taking Ninja and buying evasion with one of my advanced tricks. Then I'd be able to do everything a rogue could do- I just wouldn't be called a rogue. *sigh*
erm wait you can buy evasion with an advanced trick? where is that I didnt see that...
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Ninjas receive Evasion as an Advanced Trick. However, since you intend to go Shadow Dancer, you can be patient and try surviving until level 12 (Shadow Dancers get Evasion for free at level 2). At that point, Ninja/Shadow Dancer is absolutely superior, mechanically. But sometimes, you just want to play a rogue who can do all the same things. It's frustrating.
ninja.
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I am partial to Rogue or Ninja 10/ShadowDancer 10, using the TWF tree, Dimensional Agility tree, and the appropriate tricks and talents (invisible blade, opportunist, Shadow Clone, etc). It's absolutely beastly on paper and, so far, it's awesome in play. Our 20 str fighter dealt more consistent damage, but I was the spike damage nuclear bomb. Only one coming close to massive damage numbers per hit. Our GM knew that if I got to flank, something was very likely dead.
In the end, 5d6 damage doesn't seem like a lot from sneak attacking, and it's true, 10d6 is far better, but Shadow Dancer gives you back so much than you lose and the game isn't all about damage numbers. A Ninja or Rogue of 20 levels simply doesn't have the same kind of options that you do. They can't do as much. You get three rogue talents/ninja tricks instead of five. The Ninja/Rogue has two more than you. But you gain HiPS, Darkvision, Shadow Illusion, Shadow Call, Summon Shadow, Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation, Shadow Jump, Slippery Mind, Defensive Roll (both are rogue talents so you actually are caught up on talents/tricks) and Shadow Master...plus any rogue stuff you missed like evasion, and uncanny dodge and the like.
A ninja/Rogue gets their capstone ability at level 20 and um....more sneak attack dice and better trap sense/No Trace...
The only reason to stay a ninja or Rogue after 10, if comparing to a shadow dancer is if you don't want/need the rogue abilities, or slippery mind and defensive roll and/or you still need sneak attack dice because 5d6 isn't enough extra damage.
I think shadowdancer gives waaay more than you lose.
I am partial to Rogue or Ninja 10/ShadowDancer 10, using the TWF tree, Dimensional Agility tree, and the appropriate tricks and talents (invisible blade, opportunist, Shadow Clone, etc). It's absolutely beastly on paper and, so far, it's awesome in play. Our 20 str fighter dealt more consistent damage, but I was the spike damage nuclear bomb. Only one coming close to massive damage numbers per hit. Our GM knew that if I got to flank, something was very likely dead.
In the end, 5d6 damage doesn't seem like a lot from sneak attacking, and it's true, 10d6 is far better, but Shadow Dancer gives you back so much than you lose and the game isn't all about damage numbers. A Ninja or Rogue of 20 levels simply doesn't have the same kind of options that you do. They can't do as much. You get three rogue talents/ninja tricks instead of five. The Ninja/Rogue has two more than you. But you gain HiPS, Darkvision, Shadow Illusion, Shadow Call, Summon Shadow, Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation, Shadow Jump, Slippery Mind, Defensive Roll (both are rogue talents so you actually are caught up on talents/tricks) and Shadow Master...plus any rogue stuff you missed like evasion, and uncanny dodge and the like.
A ninja/Rogue gets their capstone ability at level 20 and um....more sneak attack dice and better trap sense/No Trace...
The only reason to stay a ninja or Rogue after 10, if comparing to a shadow dancer is if you don't want/need the rogue abilities, or slippery mind and defensive roll and/or you still need sneak attack dice because 5d6 isn't enough extra damage.
I think shadowdancer gives waaay more than you lose.
Technically by RAW the dimensional agility tree can't be used by the shadow dancer.... Technically.... I think it's poop, and would totally allow it at my table. I doubt you'll fund a DM that will not allow it. But yes, that would be a REALLY cool ninja build.
I was reading this and got very excited about making a 10ninja/10shadowdancer. I agree with almost everything said here except one part. The feat requirements to become a shadow dancer. Combat Reflexes/Dodge/Mobility. These are not things I would normally put into a ninja build. Well Dodge maybe. Don't people feel this limits the Ninja and takes him away from being as good as she is at damage? To me this means you are taking away even more feats tricks.
I am probably missing something feel free to correct me please.
