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My character is a ninja that has a lot of ranks in Craft (Alchemy) for poison making and I was looking at getting master craftsman to make some magic items using my craft alchemy ranks. Is this allowed by this feat (combined with craft wondrous items). For example, could I use my alchemy skills to make a cloak of elvenkind? It seems a little dubiousbut the magic item creation doesn't mention the actual making of the item.
Example: Get a cloak, make it in to a magic cloak. Not clothcrafting needed.
Is this right? Could I make the bracelet of Use-Activated Darkness using these two skills?
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.
Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.
Can you make a bracelet of use-activated darkness with Craft(alchemy)? No. You need Craft(jewelry).
I don't understand, it feels like you wouldn't be creating the bracelet but rather spending the time and money putting chemicals in to it until it was essentially a magic item. Or if the effect was caused by the chemicals inside the bracelet shift with certain movements to create the effect.
Or could I put 5 ranks in to Profession (Craftsman) or Engineer and be able to make whatever item i want
Also, it seems like you would just be replacing the Spellcraft skill check which magic item creation says is the usual check.
Skill Used In Creation: Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check.
Profession (Craftsman) is not a thing. Neither is Profession (Engineer).*
Craft (jewelry) would allow you to make magic bracelets or amulets while Craft (armor) would allow you to make magic armor. Craft (alchemy) would allow you to make magical alchemical items, although I can't think of any off the top of my head... elixirs, maybe?
*The DM can allow any profession or craft, but only those that are listed as examples have items that can be made using them by RAW.
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Can you make a bracelet of use-activated darkness with Craft(alchemy)? No. You need Craft(jewelry).Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.
Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.
The way I read it, you can make any type of magic weapon, armor or shield, or any type of wondrous item with any type of craft or profession skill. It doesn't really have to make sense, all you need to do is use that particular skill to make your check when crafting the item. The only time the craft (or other) skill has to make sense is if you don't have this feat and actually has caster levels.
I have to disagree Dust Raven, the section on creating magic items says you have the option of using any of the listed skills to create an item ("If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with."). Your bolded text - to me - means you have to choose to use your listed skill; i.e. you can only make items related to your skill.
Do you think the intent was to allow beggars (profession[beggar])to make magical rings? I think it only makes sense that the craft skill was supposed line up with what you can craft.
With your example of Craft [Alchemy], there is no direct correlation for the Master Craftsman feat. It is a way for non-mage types to make magical weapons, armor and wondrous items.
Now if your GM wanted to allow you to use the MC feat for say Brew Potion, and allow you to use your Craft [Alchemy] skill as an appropriate substitute, then that might be an application.
Your wanting to use [Alchemy] for wondrous items is like saying I am a Computer Engineer so I should be able to build a house.
"You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item."
This is the vital word in that line. Another way to word this would be "the chosen skill must be used as part of the creation of the item", IE, you must as part of the process create an item you could create using that profession.
So unfortunately, RAW, that does imply you cannot use craft [alchemy] to make a magical cloak. You'd need craft [clothing] or similar. The trick would be to make the profession or craft as broad as possible: you don't want craft [sword] when you could have profession [blacksmith].
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I have to disagree Dust Raven, the section on creating magic items says you have the option of using any of the listed skills to create an item ("If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with."). Your bolded text - to me - means you have to choose to use your listed skill; i.e. you can only make items related to your skill.
Do you think the intent was to allow beggars (profession[beggar])to make magical rings? I think it only makes sense that the craft skill was supposed line up with what you can craft.
Honestly, I think the intent is to allow anyone with no or not enough caster levels to craft magic items. All the feat does is provide a mechanic. It's like the bardic performance ability where you don't have to actually drag out your xylophone in combat to inspire courage. No, profession (sailor) has little if anything to do with crafting a set of magic bracers, but Master Craftsman it allows you to use your bonus to that skill to craft such items.
"You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item."
This is the vital word in that line. Another way to word this would be "the chosen skill must be used as part of the creation of the item", IE, you must as part of the process create an item you could create using that profession.
So unfortunately, RAW, that does imply you cannot use craft [alchemy] to make a magical cloak. You'd need craft [clothing] or similar. The trick would be to make the profession or craft as broad as possible: you don't want craft [sword] when you could have profession [blacksmith].
You're putting the emphasis on the wrong word. "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item." In other words, the skill is used in place of the spellcraft check. You can use any craft or profession skill to make any item, as long as you also take the appropriate craft wonderous item or craft arms and armor feat.
Now, if it has pre-requisites, the DC will increase by 5 for every one you don't meet, which will be pretty much all of them.
If you want a rationalization, for craft (alchemy) for example, you can say you create an oil or liquid which you soak the cloak in, making the magic permanent. You can make up rationalizations with any craft or profession, no matter how strange.
"You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item."
This is the vital word in that line. Another way to word this would be "the chosen skill must be used as part of the creation of the item", IE, you must as part of the process create an item you could create using that profession.
So unfortunately, RAW, that does imply you cannot use craft [alchemy] to make a magical cloak. You'd need craft [clothing] or similar. The trick would be to make the profession or craft as broad as possible: you don't want craft [sword] when you could have profession [blacksmith].
You're putting the emphasis on the wrong word. "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item." In other words, the skill is used in place of the spellcraft check. You can use any craft or profession skill to make any item, as long as you also take the appropriate craft wonderous item or craft arms and armor feat.
Now, if it has pre-requisites, the DC will increase by 5 for every one you don't meet, which will be pretty much all of them.
If you want a rationalization, for craft (alchemy) for example, you can say you create an oil or liquid which you soak the cloak in, making the magic permanent. You can make up rationalizations with any craft or profession, no matter how strange.
That's what I was thinking, that it meant you had to use your craft ability rather than spellcraft to make the item.
I've looked through a bunch of different threads on this topic and it seems to be a source of constant confusion. Perhaps a new thread we can FAQ is appropriate?
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** spoiler omitted **
Everyone is bolding the wrong word from the line you are quoting. As you can see from the bolded words in the spoiler I added, the chosen skill that is being used is the skill that you choose when you first take the feat. So yes, IMHO the RAW of the feat states that any skill/profession check can be used to make Magic Arms and Armor or Wondrous items with Master craftsman so long as you take the required feats.
While I'll grant that perhaps that's what this means by RAW, I'm not sure that it passes RAI...
Profession: Gambler + Master Craftman should not allow me to create a magic sword. Win one in a game of chance, perhaps, but not create one.
While I agree with the interpretation that you can use the alchemy skill to create any magic item as long as you have the correct crafting feat (maybe you cannot make the bracer that you want to enchant but you can enchant a purchased bracer) my opinion is likely to matter about as much as anyone else's here in this thread. Your best bet is to talk to your GM and inform him how you intend to use it. Talk it out and see if you can agree on how it will be used in the world the two of you share.
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** spoiler omitted **
Everyone is bolding the wrong word from the line you are quoting. As you can see from the bolded words in the spoiler I added, the chosen skill that is being used is the skill that you choose when you first take the feat. So yes, IMHO the RAW of the feat states that any skill/profession check can be used to make Magic Arms and Armor or Wondrous items with Master craftsman so long as you take the required feats.
While I'll grant that perhaps that's what this means by RAW, I'm not sure that it passes RAI...
Profession: Gambler + Master Craftman should not allow me to create a magic sword. Win one in a game of chance, perhaps, but not create one.
I think the confusion here comes from "creating" magic items vs. "enchanting" an item to become a magic item. Making an item magical is something that a Wizard or Cleric can do using one of the "Craft ____" feats and their SPELLCRAFT skill. The way I see Master Craftsman working, you get to replace the normal Spellcraft check for enchanting a magic item with your Professoion or Craft check instead.
In other words, here are the scenarios:
1. You're a Wizard with a +15 in Spellcraft and no Craft or Profession skills, and the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat. You therefore can't actually CRAFT a sword, but you can buy a masterwork sword and enchant it to +1 by spending money on materials and making a Spellcraft check at the end of the time it takes to enchant it.
2. You're an Alchemist with a +15 in Craft (alchemy) and the Master Craftsman feat. You therefore still can't actually CRAFT a sword, but you can buy a masterwork sword and enchant it to +1 by spending money on materials and making a Craft(Alchemy) check at the end of the time it takes to enchant it. You CAN, however, craft an Elixir of Fire Breath (a Wondrous Item) from the ground up using your Craft (alchemy) check for the check at the end of the crafting period.
In other words, the crafting system in Pathfinder, in my eyes, should have been split into two distinct parts. Crafting, which is where you physically make something using a craft or profession check, and enchanting, which is what spellcasters to to make items into magic items. This second part is what Master Craftsman lets you do even if you're not a spellcaster.
** spoiler omitted **
Everyone is bolding the wrong word from the line you are quoting. As you can see from the bolded words in the spoiler I added, the chosen skill that is being used is the skill that you choose when you first take the feat. So yes, IMHO the RAW of the feat states that any skill/profession check can be used to make Magic Arms and Armor or Wondrous items with Master craftsman so long as you take the required feats.
While I'll grant that perhaps that's what this means by RAW, I'm not sure that it passes RAI...
Profession: Gambler + Master Craftman should not allow me to create a magic sword. Win one in a game of chance, perhaps, but not create one.
I think the confusion here comes from "creating" magic items vs. "enchanting" an item to become a magic item. Making an item magical is something that a Wizard or Cleric can do using one of the "Craft ____" feats and their SPELLCRAFT skill. The way I see Master Craftsman working, you get to replace the normal Spellcraft check for enchanting a magic item with your Professoion or Craft check instead.
In other words, here are the scenarios:
1. You're a Wizard with a +15 in Spellcraft and no Craft or Profession skills, and the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat. You therefore can't actually CRAFT a sword, but you can buy a masterwork sword and enchant it to +1 by spending money on materials and making a Spellcraft check at the end of the time it takes to enchant it.
2. You're an Alchemist with a +15 in Craft (alchemy) and the Master Craftsman feat. You therefore still can't actually CRAFT a sword, but you can buy a masterwork sword and enchant it to +1 by spending money on materials and making a Craft(Alchemy) check at the end of the time it takes to enchant it. You CAN, however, craft an Elixir of Fire Breath (a Wondrous Item) from the ground up using your Craft (alchemy) check for the check at the end of the crafting period.
In other words, the crafting system in...
I think that is one of the best descriptions I've seen that makes sense. Though you've also need the Craft Wondrous Items and/or Craft Magic Arms feats to make the items as well. The way I see it is that the costs to make a basic item are in the creation costs while a weapon would have to be purchased extra.
Example: Bracelet of Darkness. Use-Activated Darkness spell
2nd Level Spell
3rd Level Caster Level
Spell Darkness
Cost: 2*3*2000 = 6000
Craft DC = 5+3+5 (for not having darkness) = 13 Spellcraft check
With Master Craftsman this would be a 13 Craft (Alchemy) check
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You are missing something: the rules spell out what skill can be used with a item creation feat.
Creating Magic Armor
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Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (armor).Creating Magic Weapons
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Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons).Creating Potions
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Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (alchemy)Creating Rings
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Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (jewelry).Creating Rods
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Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (jewelry), Craft (sculptures), or Craft (weapons).Creating Scrolls
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Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (calligraphy), or Profession (scribe).Creating Staves
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Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (jewelry), Craft (sculptures), or Profession (woodcutterCreating Wands
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Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (jewelry), Craft (sculptures), or Profession (woodcutter).Creating Wondrous Items
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Skill Used In Creation: Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check.
All from the magi item creation section of the rules.
So if you want to make a wondrous item you must use spellcraft or an ]b]applicable[/b] skill, i.e. something that can be used to make the item you want to enchant, to make a armor you must use Spellcraft or Craft (armor), to make a sword you must use spellcraft or Craft (weapons)and so on.
There is no option to use Craft (alchemy) to make a sword or Craft (weapon) to make a magic carpet.
You are missing something: The rules for Master Craftsman specifically state that the Skill you choose at the time of taking the feat replaces Spellcraft. Therefore if I choose Profession(Homemaker) when taking Master Craftsman I use Profession(Homemaker) in place of Spellcraft when creating magic items and bypass the need for the relevant craft skills as they are an "or" that I do not need. Nowhere in Master Craftsman or in the magic item creation rules does it say that I need to take Craft(Weapon) when taking Master Craftsman if I want to make magic weapons.All from the magi item creation section of the rules.
So if you want to make a wondrous item you must use spellcraft or an ]b]applicable[/b] skill, i.e. something that can be used to make the item you want to enchant, to make a armor you must use Spellcraft or Craft (armor), to make a sword you must use spellcraft or Craft (weapons)and so on.
There is no option to use Craft (alchemy) to make a sword or Craft (weapon) to make a magic carpet.
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.
Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.
It doesn't say replace, it says you must use the chosen skill. This is why I think your items are limited by your chosen skill. You must use it to craft the item and only certain items can be crafted using it.
Creating Magic Armor
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Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (armor)if taking Master Craftsman.
This doesn't work as an alternate text, as spellcasters can use the alternate skill if it is higher than their spellcraft (or if they just want to, for that matter).
It doesn't say replace, it says you must use the chosen skill. This is why I think your items are limited by your chosen skill. You must use it to craft the item and only certain items can be crafted using it.Which begs the question, if you must use the chosen skill for the check when creating the magic item, and the magic item created is limited by the chose skill, why is Profession an skill you can choose when taking the feat as there is no profession that allows you to create any magic item.
Probably for custom items.
Elves of Golarion, for instance, has magic food for which profession (cook) would be appropriate.
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It doesn't say replace, it says you must use the chosen skill. This is why I think your items are limited by your chosen skill. You must use it to craft the item and only certain items can be crafted using it.Which begs the question, if you must use the chosen skill for the check when creating the magic item, and the magic item created is limited by the chose skill, why is Profession an skill you can choose when taking the feat as there is no profession that allows you to create any magic item.
EDIT: Ok wow I really need to bone up on my reading skills because there are professions right there in Diego Rossi's post. Sorry for being dumb guys.
Profession (scribe) for any written item, like the stat boosting tomes, maybe profession (tanner) for a few items.
Other professions have little use.
I can see it both ways.
While I agree that
You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item.can be interpreted to meanThe item crafted must be creatable using the chosen skill.I also think that it can meanYou use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. You cannot use another skill.suggesting that it replaces any other checks.
While I don't think that Profession(gambler) makes sense to allow enchanting a sword, I don't see how craft(weapons) would have any more application to making fire erupt from a sword.
(Personally I would be inclined to rule in favor of the first interpretation but I wouldn't call it wrong to allow the more permissive, second interpretation, and could be persuaded either direction. My expressed opinion would likely depend on which side of the table I was currently positioned :D)
edit in italics
The main issue here seems to be the extremely vague wording. I wish they would clear it up a little. The way I see it, since you have to use 2 feats in order to accomplish this I believe you should be able to use this crafting or profession check to build any of the items but that could just be me. I guess, in this case, it is up to the GM
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It comes down to this, if you are limited to creating items for which the skill is listed as an alternate skill in the create magic items section, is the feat even worth taking? It is clearly not.
If you may use you chosen skill to craft any item (for which you take the applicable crafting feat) then all it does it put you on par with any given spellcaster with the same item creation feat, but with more difficult checks due to not having any spells available (though an actual spellcaster may assist you, providing the spell components). This seem to be RAI, even if the RAW is a bit confusing to some.
For anyone who needs justification to maintain immersion in the story, remember "crafting" a magic item rarely entails actual crafting, merely enchanting an already constructed item, or the simple assembling the pieces of the item as most. As far as how the item gets enchanted, use your imagination to determine a clever way one might use mundane skills in an unusual way, resulting in a magic effect. It shouldn't be too hard in a world full of magic.
Craft (baskets): a special basket is weaved into which the item to be enchanted is placed for a duration, and this basket is then handled in a particular way and ta-da! Magic item!
Craft (pottery): the item to be enchanted is baked into a piece of pottery (the magic prevents it from melting/burning) and ta-da! Magic item!
Profession (barrister): secret articles of divine or arcane law are written/etched/drawn into the item and ta-da! Magic item!
Profession (innkeeper): the item to be enchanted is placed/hidden in a high traffic area within the inn, allowing it to absorb the residual magic of those who pass by and ta-da! Magic item!
Profession (fisherman, midwife, soldier): these profession are full of oddly specific and unusual superstition; invent one and ta-da! Magic item!
It comes down to this, if you are limited to creating items for which the skill is listed as an alternate skill in the create magic items section, is the feat even worth taking? It is clearly not.
If you may use you chosen skill to craft any item (for which you take the applicable crafting feat) then all it does it put you on par with any given spellcaster with the same item creation feat, but with more difficult checks due to not having any spells available (though an actual spellcaster may assist you, providing the spell components). This seem to be RAI, even if the RAW is a bit confusing to some.
For anyone who needs justification to maintain immersion in the story, remember "crafting" a magic item rarely entails actual crafting, merely enchanting an already constructed item, or the simple assembling the pieces of the item as most. As far as how the item gets enchanted, use your imagination to determine a clever way one might use mundane skills in an unusual way, resulting in a magic effect. It shouldn't be too hard in a world full of magic.
Craft (baskets): a special basket is weaved into which the item to be enchanted is placed for a duration, and this basket is then handled in a particular way and ta-da! Magic item!
Craft (pottery): the item to be enchanted is baked into a piece of pottery (the magic prevents it from melting/burning) and ta-da! Magic item!
Profession (barrister): secret articles of divine or arcane law are written/etched/drawn into the item and ta-da! Magic item!
Profession (innkeeper): the item to be enchanted is placed/hidden in a high traffic area within the inn, allowing it to absorb the residual magic of those who pass by and ta-da! Magic item!
Profession (fisherman, midwife, soldier): these profession are full of oddly specific and unusual superstition; invent one and ta-da! Magic item!
The efficacy of a feat is not grounds for interpreting it. See elephant stomp and prone shooter.
Even with a broad interpretation, it is a fairly bad feat. You can't even craft _anything_ until level 7 and it eats 2 feats.
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The efficacy of a feat is not grounds for interpreting it. See elephant stomp and prone shooter.
Even with a broad interpretation, it is a fairly bad feat. You can't even craft _anything_ until level 7 and it eats 2 feats.
Would you agree it's fair to interpret what the feat does by what it says it does? It says you may use a skill chosen from a broad list to craft magic items, and you must use the chosen skill for the check to create such items. There is no ambiguity here. No exception or restriction exists or is even implied. The feat does exactly what it says, nothing more and nothing less.
Would you agree it's fair to interpret what the feat does by what it says it does? It says you may use a skill chosen from a broad list to craft magic items, and you must use the chosen skill for the check to create such items. There is no ambiguity here. No exception or restriction exists or is even implied. The feat does exactly what it says, nothing more and nothing less.The efficacy of a feat is not grounds for interpreting it. See elephant stomp and prone shooter.
Even with a broad interpretation, it is a fairly bad feat. You can't even craft _anything_ until level 7 and it eats 2 feats.
The disagreement this feat causes shows there is ambiguity.
As I've already made my arguments upthread, there is no point for me to repeat them again.
Hm, I am clearly in favour of the permissive interpretation and like Dust Raven's examples. Alas, I fear if we get a ruling by the Devs, it will follow the interpretation of Whale Cancer and Diego Rossi.