Are clerics better blasters?

[insaneogeddon]

Blasting is about damage dice-

Clerics get:

+4 CL prayer beads

Maximised Blasting from incense of meditation

+1 CL Orange Prism (any caster can use)

Theologian gets +2 CL and can spontaneously cast domain spells

Divine Strategist adds +2 to +7 CL

Arcane Casters lack these advantages.

Holy Word and the above is just flat broken.

[Elosandi]

Constantly using prayer beads is going to rack up quite a bill. They're fairly expensive.

Arcane casters benefit just as much from a divine strategist aiding them as a cleric does.

I'll give you that Incense of Meditation is really good though.

[blackbloodtroll]

What's the Rules Question?

[Secane]

insaneogeddon wrote:

Theologian gets +2 CL and can spontaneously cast domain spells

How does a Theoligian get +2 CL for his domain spells?

Theologian's Focused Domain only affect domain powers. Not domain spells.

[Andirion D'or]

Divine Strategist grants a circumstance bonus to caster level checks and concentration checks. It never actually raises your effective caster level, therefore would not affect spell variables based on caster level.

Theologians increase their effective cleric level only for effects related to their granted domain powers, not spells cast whether they be domain or otherwise.

The Strand of Prayer Beads which works once a day for 10 minutes. It is a large advantage, but it will run out.

The Incense of Meditation is also a great bonus, but requires 8 hours of preparation time, and the effects last for 24 hours. Again it will run out, and you have to know exactly when you will be running into trouble or the effect and money to buy it are wasted.

The last two items are useful, but a smart opponent would try to escape and come back later (for the prayer beads) or another day (for the incense).

I believe arcane casters have other bonuses and abilities that divine casters don't have, or only have with specific domains. Wizards especially can be much more versatile and prepared when going into a battle when they know what exactly to expect.

/edit ninja'd - serves me right for taking my time.

[Quandary]

incense of meditation should have used the drug/addiction rules...

[Ambush...]

insaneogeddon wrote:

Blasting is about damage dice-

Clerics get:

+4 CL prayer beads

- Arcane casters can use these items as well. Just takes a pimped out UMD check.
- Also, divine spells for blasting at earlier levels are just plain weak by comparison.
- The vast majority of blasting spells require a failed save. Divines are extremely feat starved for boosting DCs on these WHILE having the meta-magic for damage output.

Although I will spot you that the single best boom spell in the game (IMO) is usually a divine spell (Fire Seeds), but it is also on the spell selection of a couple of arcane classes.

My $0.02

[lantzkev]

So how does the increased caster level make em better blasters? did they start getting blasting spells?

[Jack Rift]

Fire domain is the quickest one that comes to mind. But that is domain spells only.

[TheKingsportCockroach]

Jack Rift wrote:

Fire domain is the quickest one that comes to mind. But that is domain spells only.

Aren't there some ways that a cleric can spontaneously cast domain spells. You could pull the ole magical lineage and fireball trick with that. As someone gearing up to play a cleric this has sparked some interest... I've always enjoyed blowing stuff up after all...

[Jelloarm]

As someone running a dual-wildbloodline half-orc Brutal/Primal sorceror... No.

+1/2 Sorc level damage on fire spells (half-orc alt racial favored class)
+1 dmg per die when casting a fire spell (Primal arcana)
+2 dmg on one creature when targeted with a damage-dealing spell (Brutal arcana)

Yes, he is a little nerfed because fire is the most common resistance... but I really just view that as leveling the field.

[Jack Rift]

Yeah, there is, don't remember what right now.

[insaneogeddon]

Hmm.
Missed that the divine strategist and theologian don't add CL to spells.

As a cleric theologian (fire) you can get as many fireballs as you want per day. Taking feat 'intensify spell' and the trait: magical linage (burning hands) it gets you a 1st level spell that can do 10d4 so is great for quicken n using up those useless 1st level slots at high level for something amusing.
+1 CL if your a pyro gnome or iffrit.

Other trait cannot go wrong with:
Missionary: You have come to town to see about expanding the presence of your chosen faith after receiving visions that told you your faith is needed in the region—what that need is, though, you're not quite sure. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Knowledge (religion) checks, and Knowledge (religion) is a class skill for you. If you cast divine spells, pick three spells on your spell list. You are particularly adept at casting these spells, so they function at +1 caster level when you cast them, and their save DCs (if any) gain a +1 bonus.

Pitty the theologians level bonus only applies to domain powers.. pretty much makes it unspectacular unless you choose the protection domain .. not a bad choice as with the defense subdomain their some pretty handy spells to buff with (shield, barkskin etc).

The other handy way to boost caster level for basting (or holy word) is
spell focus (evocation) and the UM feat
Spell Specialization:

Select one spell. You cast that spell with greater than normal power.

Prerequisites: Int 13, Spell Focus.

Benefit: Select one spell of a school for which you have taken the Spell Focus feat. Treat your caster level as being two higher for all level-variable effects of the spell.

Every time you gain an even level in the spellcasting class you chose your spell from, you can choose a new spell to replace the spell selected with this feat, and that spell becomes your specialized spell.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different spell.

Its tops exp with spell perfection it adds +4 caster level.
With beads and a ion stone its not bad exp if been smoking some wack incense!

[Jon Otaguro 428]

The one thing divine casters get is fire storm - the best damage spell for area in the game.

[Atarlost]

Jack Rift wrote:

Yeah, there is, don't remember what right now.

Theologians can prepare their domain spells in non-domain slots, but not spontaneously.

[Elosandi]

The only "Spontaneously cast domain spells" that I know of is the Urban Druid, and they're definitely not a cleric.

[Atarlost]

Elosandi wrote:

The only "Spontaneously cast domain spells" that I know of is the Urban Druid, and they're definitely not a cleric.

Storm druid can as well. And the sylph racial archetype.

Admittedly they're not clerics either.

[Jadeite]

Wouldn't oracles be better blasters than clerics?

[Lumiere Dawnbringer]

Jadeite wrote:

Wouldn't oracles be better blasters than clerics?

if you don't mind being restricted to fire damage short of metamagic feats.

[spalding]

I would say, "could be alright late game" -- the alignment based blasts come with kicker effects and generally are easier to let loose with IF your companions aren't the wrong alignment as you then don't have to worry about them being caught in the blast area. The dice are generally bigger for a cleric, but their damage caps are also generally lower. Using the metamagic feat that increases damage caps can help with this, but still will leave the cleric behind a wizard that uses the same metamagic feat.

I think it *could* be done, and done very well but it'll probably end up being campaign specific (when you *know* you're almost always facing evil enemies for example) and very situational.

[insaneogeddon]

Jon Otaguro 428 wrote:

The one thing divine casters get is fire storm - the best damage spell for area in the game.

Sadly thats no longer true : ( : Freezing Sphere is actually. Since paizo boosted the area. With rime spell and the trait that takes a level of a metamagic its a 6th level army and town killer 4 levels earlier than a cleric.

One thing that is often overlooked I find is Blade Barrier - players often use it as a barrier (thats easily got round or through) but if you think of it as a better DC/bigger area/better damage type lightening bolt proxy that can be from any direction it becomes awesome as a 6th level cleric blast spell!! that h It has an added terrain bonus of splitting the battle field as well.

[insaneogeddon]

Ice sub domain allows freezing sphere !

[spalding]

Um... a 40 foot burst (172 5ft squares) or 2 10ft x 10ft cubes per level, with a minimum caster level of 15 means 30 10ft x 10ft cubes meaning 240 5ft squares (speaking in two dimensions), which I don't have to really waste space on since I can place them precisely how I want them...

Am I missing something here?

[Jon Otaguro 428]

The fact that you get to select the location of each cube means that in practice you can hit nearly every enemy in an encounter with firestorm. This spell used to be a full round action in 3.5. Paizo changed it to a standard action. I played with an oracle of fire in the second darkness AP. Once he got firestorm, many encounters became trivial.

A 40' radius sphere is nice size, but it can't hit enemies that are 90' apart - firestorm can. Also, firestorm can mitigate the need for selective spell - which you will probably need with a 40' radius spell in order to get the most out of the area.

[spalding]

That and the fact firestorm covers more area total when you first get it and then covers even more as you gain levels...

[insaneogeddon]

Its 8th vs 6th level. By 8th spells everything is trivial and by then could have a widened (80ft burst) freezing sphere with the same trait.

Also at that level many opponents are flying so the 3D area cannot be ignored.

At these levels its pretty trivial to make your party immune to cold or whatever (its sort of what you do, your a cleric = protection spells) so selective spell is a needless option.

Either or the claim was "best damage spell for area" and even without the level differential firestorm is no longer king. Easier to use for some perhaps but no longer the "best damage spell for area".

I might be biased as I play paizo modules mostly so 11th level play happens whereas 15th level play is lucky to be happening in the last encounter .. and then the inevitable aftermath of the players becoming evil and going through their 'sh.t list' and disern location, teleport attacking every miniscule smarmy npc that got away, smart mouthed guard, loose end, village and other early game 'collosal fear monster' put in early to make the PCs feel small. Its tedious but players love it and its a just reward for them keeping the evil in their pants and (mostly) cooperating for the real module and generally making life easier - till then...

[insaneogeddon]

Either spell is pretty horrible when the clerics have been smoking 'incense of meditation'

Being seniors (or the bosses) of their churces they pretty much have an endless supply by that level anyway like wizards have all the potions and low level scrolls they can carry without having a support network.

[spalding]

Um... no. You aren't likely to be walking around with unlimited incense of meditation, and the base spell still matters, immunities (for players) are a bit rarer than all that and fire storm starts with a higher damage cap than freezing sphere (20 vs 15) as well as being able to go higher over all pass that point.

Area is still likely to favor the fire storm since you have the ability to subdivide it instead of having wasted space.

Freezing sphere is basically an overgrown over priced fireball.

As to level differential, well if you really want to go there for the ice domain freezing sphere is level 7 compared to level 8 for fire storm... got to say that's no so much difference as to be worth what you lose in comparison. But hey track down RavingDork -- he's around here somewhere and tends to be our resident spell damage subject matter expert.

[insaneogeddon]

The cost for incense at those levels is not high exp. if you can craft. They are also the levels you have warning for big fights if you know what your doing.

Best Damage for area is still freezing sphere. Pile apples together if it helps its a bigger area. That was the claim not where friendlies are, noob ease of use issues, damage to an individual, resistances or assumptions about everyone being ground ridden when their CR 15+.