This smells like an attempted exploit to me.
"Complex" does not necessarily mean "has moving parts." While it is true that keys of the sort in use in most people's vision of the technology of a PF game would be fairly straightforward, the actual level of detail involved in the key requires extreme precision. You could rule that level of precision is not possible with "minor creation."
However, this is clever enough that I'd probably consider allowing it, but I would define a DC level for each lock (even if I made it up on the fly) and I would have him roll a "craft: locks" skill check and if he met the DC, then fine, the key works.
It is sorta cool.
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Personally I don't think it should be possible to make a key if you don't know the architecture of the lock - you're lacking an important piece of knowledge that you'd need to actually successfully implement your craft skill. I would however allow it to make a quick copy of a key that you can observe (eg sneak into the jailer's office, find his keys, make yourself a duplicate, and leave the originals in place).
The thing about locks is, in the real world anyway, their mechanisms are relatively predictable. That's why lockpickers are so good at picking them. Simple locks are fairly easy to pick, and the way they are picked is by understanding the underlying mechanism and triggering the tumblers inside in a particular way.
If a PC has sufficient "craft: locks" skills, I would consider that to be knowledge of how the particular lock's mechanism work, and then with a bit of probing of the keyhole, I would consider it possible to make a key that works.
But, again, all my approach does is take the skill check from lockpicking to creating a key. It then really becomes a flavor thing, but the investment in skill points to open one becomes more or less the same.
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The obvious thing would be to set the Craft DC to the Disable Device DC. In that case, all the player has really done is given themselves a more flavorful, but less versatile, version of Disable Device. Seems perfectly fine to me.
Although, unless whoever built the dungeon put different locks on EVERY door, once you make the key you can open other doors in the dungeon. Which seems quite fair since you cast a spell on top of making a skill check. And there still might be doors with unique locks (say to a treasure vault or the like). Plus, no evidence the lock was picked!
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I like the flavor. I would do my best as a GM to make this work, but keep it balanced.
Definately. need to keep this in my back pocket!
I think that's a good call Blake. I do like the flavor, but I suspected the player was attempting to game the system.
I think the first rule of running an enjoyable game is to allow your PC's to try anything they want to try. Saying, "No, that does not work." usually just dissuades participation. Yes, it is impossible for some things to work, but let 'em try what they want to try.
"Picking" a lock is akin to knowing how the lock works and putting little things in it (effectively mimicking a key) to "pick" it. Knowing how to build a lock is the Craft Skill. Figuring out what kind of key might fit this lock is an application of the Craft skill. (Suppose you have a key ring of 20 keys and must choose the right one before the giant gets to you.....Craft: Lock checks, maybe Engineering, would help you figure that out.)
What the player is going for here is automatic success...a skeleton key to open all locks. Just making a random key out of your imagination with no connection to the complexity of the lock will not work. It'd be no different than me making a random key at a hardware store and going home to use it on my door. Not gonna work! If I was a Locksmithing expert making such a thing MIGHT let me come close to it if I knew the type of lock it was. The better my knowledge, the more closely I'd come to the real thing. 20 Ranks of Craft Lock and I probably could come up with the correct key when given the lock. 5 ranks??? No way. Maybe on a nat 20 he gets lucky.
To Craft a Lock is DC 20. Crafting superior ones might be more. The DC to open a lock depends on the lock's quality: simple (DC 20), average (DC 25), good (DC 30), or superior (DC 40).
Didn't 3.0 or 3.5 have something where 5 Ranks in a skill gave you a Synergy bonus to another skill? Sounds like this is a case for something like that.
In all, I would see it as you are making a "tool" to pick a lock with. You can possibly make the right key on a great roll. You can't make the perfect key without looking at the original key, so you are making something LIKE the perfect key (to the best of your knowledge) in order to use it to Disable Device. Your knowledge of the lock is a Craft Locks check(or, Knowledge: Engineering). The better your knowledge check, the better the new key fits the lock. If the Craft Locks roll is SOooo great, then I'd say the Disable Device check is not necessary(basically it was like a +20 to the DD check).
Note #1: It WOULD be possible to make such and outstanding key that it would automatically work. That is, IMHO, if the Craft check exceeded the Disable Device DC for the lock...or maybe a nat 20 roll.
Note #2: In the spirit of the rules, even Invisibility only gives you a bonus on your Stealth check...not automatic success. Using a "power" or "spell" to enhance a skill should give a bonus to that skill. Invisibility helps Stealth, Craft Locks helps Disable Device.
I'd let the guy keep on creating keys until he got the right one (by a nat 20 or a 19 roll, depending on the lock.) Let him try. Making "a" key is a simple check, no problem. Maybe he gets the great roll. Unless the key is nearly perfect, it then is just a tool and is like using Disable Device at that point.
There is a class variant that gives a fourth level spell as a spell-like ability at level 1?
Really?
There is a class variant that gives a fourth level spell as a spell-like ability at level 1?
Really?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo--- arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/conjuration/creation
Creation
Associated School: Conjuration.
Replacement Powers: The following school powers replace the acid dart power and the dimensional steps power of the conjuration school.
Create Gear (Su): At 1st level, you can create any object that weighs no more than 1 pound per wizard level you possess. Creating an object in this way is a standard action. The Item remains for 1 minute before fading away, although it disappears after one round if it leaves your possession. Creating an Item to an exact specification might require a Craft skill check, subject to GM discretion. The object must be made of simple materials, such as wood, stone, glass, or metal, and cannot contain any moving parts. You could use this ability to create a dagger, but not a vial of alchemist’s fire. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
How's he going to know what the teeth for a particular lock should look like?
There is a class variant that gives a fourth level spell as a spell-like ability at level 1?
Really?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo--- arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/conjuration/creation
Creation
Associated School: Conjuration.Replacement Powers: The following school powers replace the acid dart power and the dimensional steps power of the conjuration school.
Create Gear (Su): At 1st level, you can create any object that weighs no more than 1 pound per wizard level you possess. Creating an object in this way is a standard action. The Item remains for 1 minute before fading away, although it disappears after one round if it leaves your possession. Creating an Item to an exact specification might require a Craft skill check, subject to GM discretion. The object must be made of simple materials, such as wood, stone, glass, or metal, and cannot contain any moving parts. You could use this ability to create a dagger, but not a vial of alchemist’s fire. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
Well, that's hardly "minor creation". You could argue that it's better than minor creation in that you can make things out of metal, stone or glass, but it's still limited in duration and in size. I bolded the key part that supports the advice that's been given here. I think the "craft: lock" with the DC set the same for picking a lock makes perfect sense for using this ability to make a lock key.
TCG: there has already been a discussion of how "craft: lock" could provide information about the construction of the key.
As someone that has been to more than a few Hacker Cons, I must point out that most locks are not secure. They are designed to give you a false sense of security & make the bad person look for easier (aka not locked) prey.
How's he going to know what the teeth for a particular lock should look like?
For example:
Just create a Bump Keycheck out 3:43 to see it in action, its really not that difficult.
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I would require a disable device check to even know how to make the key. It wouldn't work on other locks since they mass production doesn't make sense in the game world.
He could make a skeleton key i guess.
Key, Skeleton
Source Adventurer's Armory
Many door locks have a similar design and thus can be unlocked by a similar key. A skeleton key may be tried on any standard door lock that uses a key, even if you don’t have the Disable Device skill. You use the key’s Disable Device bonus of +10 rather than your own total; you cannot take 10 when using a skeleton key. The key only gets one roll for any particular lock. If the roll fails, the key is unable to open or close that lock. Inferior skeleton keys may only have a +5 bonus.
I think the disable DC is the right one. After all by crafting a key he will not only open the lock but bypass a lot of traps as well. Because, as I understand it, most traps only go off when the lock is picked, not when it is opened with a key.
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I would require a disable device check to even know how to make the key.If he can make the DD check he doesn't need the key... besides the ability asks for a craft check, craft(locks) seems appropriate and he still needs to put a couple ranks in to keep it up to the DCs in the long run. He won't be better at opening locks than any high-dex character with a trained DD skill, except he can only do it a limited number of times per day (and it may not be the only thing he wants to use that ability for)
Just see it as a nonstandard (a little less powerful) way of getting around locks, which in my opinion is a creative (non-abusive) way of using this ability and giving the character a certain roguish flavour. He still needs a trained skill, he only changes the relevant attribute to his primary casting attribute, making it a class skill in the process (he could also achieve this with a trait) but pays for it by only being able to apply the skill to locks (no way of disabling traps or other devices using the same mechanics) and imposes a limit per day on using the skill for that purpose.
Yeah, he should still need to make the craft check. DD is since he is peaking inside and making assumptions instead of using a shop, proper tools and processes. He gets to avoid thieves tools and/ the not having them penalty. If he doesn't understand the lock how can he make a proper key? it's not like he couldn't put 1 point in craft and the rest in DD.
in a game wide sense, I don't like your suggestion. In the at this table sense it works, then its fine. Players should have fun and its not broken just really good assuming locks play a part of the campaign.
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Key, Skeleton
Source Adventurer's ArmoryMany door locks have a similar design and thus can be unlocked by a similar key. A skeleton key may be tried on any standard door lock that uses a key, even if you don’t have the Disable Device skill. You use the key’s Disable Device bonus of +10 rather than your own total; you cannot take 10 when using a skeleton key. The key only gets one roll for any particular lock. If the roll fails, the key is unable to open or close that lock. Inferior skeleton keys may only have a +5 bonus.
1) This supports the part where things aren't automatically given. Even this key gives bonuses to Disable Device just like Invisibility only gives bonuses to Stealth checks.
2)A moderate Craft Locks skill might allow the person to "create" a general key and then use it in this way. If it does not work, then use the power again to make another key and try again. It is basically a temporary create wondrous item power.
As someone that has been to more than a few Hacker Cons, I must point out that most locks are not secure. They are designed to give you a false sense of security & make the bad person look for easier (aka not locked) prey.
How's he going to know what the teeth for a particular lock should look like?For example:
Just create a Bump Keycheck out 3:43 to see it in action, its really not that difficult.
1) Modern locks are generally much higher tech than fantasy locks. However, that makes fantasy locks easier to open, so it's only a small point of consideration.
2) More importantly why would you need to make this on the fly using magic? Couldn't you just make it ahead of time and save yourself the spell slot? Assuming of course your DM allows a bump key in the first place.
2) More importantly why would you need to make this on the fly using magic? Couldn't you just make it ahead of time and save yourself the spell slot? Assuming of course your DM allows a bump key in the first place.The item only lasts a minute, per: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo--- arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/conjuration/creation
(assuming it were allowed at all)
The spell lasts a minute, but a mundanely created version wouldnt have a timer. Of course if you want the timer in order to effectively dispose of evidence that's a different story.
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I'm just saying he doesn't have x ray vision (yet) and so how does he know what the key should look like? No all locks of the same type share the same key so he has to figure it out some how.
So I like two options: the skeleton key, assuming that's as detailed this power gets or DD first, which gives him insight into the key shape.
I'm not trying to argue, just trying to clarify my opinion. Ill leave it at disagreement and stop posting.
The spell lasts a minute, but a mundanely created version wouldnt have a timer. Of course if you want the timer in order to effectively dispose of evidence that's a different story.It's a granted power from the conjuration school:
Create Gear (Su): At 1st level, you can create any object that weighs no more than 1 pound per wizard level you possess. Creating an object in this way is a standard action. The Item remains for 1 minute before fading away, although it disappears after one round if it leaves your possession. Creating an Item to an exact specification might require a Craft skill check, subject to GM discretion. The object must be made of simple materials, such as wood, stone, glass, or metal, and cannot contain any moving parts. You could use this ability to create a dagger, but not a vial of alchemist’s fire. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
Apologies for the initial confusion I may have caused comparing this to minor creation.
Gotcha. I had misunderstood.
If it were me, I would have my Bat Familiar do some echolocation to give me an idea of what it looks like on the inside of the lock. In fact sense it shares my skills. I would allow it to make a sketching of the tumblers, and then use that to base my check off of.
keys are pretty complex, ask a lock smith :)
biggest problem, without being able to see the insides of the lock, he doesnt know how to fashion the key. I'd say he could get around this if he had say blindsight/tremor sense or something similar.
If he CAN see the inside of the lock, the DC to make the key should equal the DC to unlock the device. Ever get a key from Wallmart that has the tiniest imperfection in it? Doesn't work does it? :)
plus mionor creation makes wood and cloth if memory serves... Ever heard of a metal key breaking in a tumbler? It happens here and there and its made of metal, imagine a thin wood key with extremely intricate details. I'd give an extremely high break chance depending on the lock difficulty.
now if were talking a skeleton key here, just let the man have his moment and get on with the game hehe :)