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Yar!
Well, then, why were the Monk discussions not moved to Suggestions/Homebrew?
You mean the giant monster of a thread that was Flurry of Changes to Flurry of Blows which is where the most discussion of the clarifications and suggestions of fixes took place? Because that actually was moved to the Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew forum. I honestly do not see the double standard here.
I do not believe that paizo is "shunting" threads to other forums, especially not as a means to shut them down. I've eluded to this already, as have the very staff that move threads. The reason for thread relocation is to keep these forums organized for the benefits of future visitors so that it is easier for them to find the topics they are searching for. This is about organization. There is nothing malicious about it (Yes, that is a strong word that no one has said yet, but the implications of some posts suggest that feeling).
And I will say it a third time: The Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew forum is for discussing suggestions for changes to the core rules as well as homebrew things. At the moment, they are not mutually exclusive entities, hence why "Suggestions" is the very first word in the name of the forum.
Of course, the suggestion of separating Suggestions and Homebrew into two separate forums is an idea worth investigating. May I suggest a new thread (with an appropriate title) in the Website feedback forum to make a stronger case for, and to more appropriately discuss, such a alteration to this site?
~P
Maybe the best would be to create a "Pathfinder System Discussion" sub-forum, so that people could have those theorycraft discussions without being mixed in with the homebrewn stuff, which is another type of topic entirely.
"Here is my homebrewn Swashbuckler class!" is just an completely different type of thread from the "These are the flaws of the magic item creation system" type and should not, IMO, be on the same forum.
Agreed!
Discussing the need to change a part of the system and possible ways to do it is completely different than you talking about changes you are going to do in your home games.
But there is no need to change any part of the system. If anything was changed the game would be worse for it.
Wut?the magic item creation system balances itself out in the end.
you sell looted gear for half price, you craft for half price. it evens out to the same value in the end, with maybe the conversion of a handful of gold pieces. but it's a good idea to carry a handful of gold or similar portable trade good for bribes, permits, taxes, and similar transactions.
the item creation feats offer customizability. the half price to craft is balanced out by the halved resale value. the values even out. as not much of your treasure is intended to be in cold hard cash.
but it's a good idea to keep some gold on hand for emergencies. you never know when you need to bribe the city guard to look away.
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But there is no need to change any part of the system. If anything was changed the game would be worse for it.Maybe the best would be to create a "Pathfinder System Discussion" sub-forum, so that people could have those theorycraft discussions without being mixed in with the homebrewn stuff, which is another type of topic entirely.
"Here is my homebrewn Swashbuckler class!" is just an completely different type of thread from the "These are the flaws of the magic item creation system" type and should not, IMO, be on the same forum.
Agreed!
Discussing the need to change a part of the system and possible ways to do it is completely different than you talking about changes you are going to do in your home games.
Then you can create a thread on the reasons why the rules are fine the way they are.
I disagree 100% that there needs to be a change and I am not alone in this. Making it worse by making changes is purely subjective but please don't sit there and ignore the obvious examples that have been provided where the system is broken.
You do realise it is okay to like the system while acknowledging its flaws.
But there is no need to change any part of the system. If anything was changed the game would be worse for it.Maybe the best would be to create a "Pathfinder System Discussion" sub-forum, so that people could have those theorycraft discussions without being mixed in with the homebrewn stuff, which is another type of topic entirely.
"Here is my homebrewn Swashbuckler class!" is just an completely different type of thread from the "These are the flaws of the magic item creation system" type and should not, IMO, be on the same forum.
Agreed!
Discussing the need to change a part of the system and possible ways to do it is completely different than you talking about changes you are going to do in your home games.
Then you can create a thread on the reasons why the rules are fine the way they are.
I disagree 100% that there needs to be a change and I am not alone in this. Making it worse by making changes is purely subjective but please don't sit there and ignore the obvious examples that have been provided where the system is broken.
You do realise it is okay to like the system while acknowledging its flaws.
as has been said before, the heavy customizability of the magic item system is not a flaw, but a feature. as the crafting rules are also, but an abstraction. in fact, d20 has always been rather exploitable, as has dungeons and dragons, for entire decades before.
But there is no need to change any part of the system. If anything was changed the game would be worse for it.Maybe the best would be to create a "Pathfinder System Discussion" sub-forum, so that people could have those theorycraft discussions without being mixed in with the homebrewn stuff, which is another type of topic entirely.
"Here is my homebrewn Swashbuckler class!" is just an completely different type of thread from the "These are the flaws of the magic item creation system" type and should not, IMO, be on the same forum.
Agreed!
Discussing the need to change a part of the system and possible ways to do it is completely different than you talking about changes you are going to do in your home games.
Then you can create a thread on the reasons why the rules are fine the way they are.
I disagree 100% that there needs to be a change and I am not alone in this. Making it worse by making changes is purely subjective but please don't sit there and ignore the obvious examples that have been provided where the system is broken.
You do realise it is okay to like the system while acknowledging its flaws.
Yeah I did that, it's here: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pbzs?Why-Pathfinder-20-should-never-happen
Also I don't think there are any obvious examples the system is broken. All the examples provided on this forum don't prove your point.
Yar!
Well, then, why were the Monk discussions not moved to Suggestions/Homebrew?You mean the giant monster of a thread that was Flurry of Changes to Flurry of Blows which is where the most discussion of the clarifications and suggestions of fixes took place? Because that actually was moved to the Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew forum. I honestly do not see the double standard here.
That was one thread out of the many, many threads which blew up to monstrous size about the class.
But there is no need to change any part of the system. If anything was changed the game would be worse for it.
About every FAQ entry disagrees with that. There are flaws in the system which can be improved. While ultimately it is the designers which decide which parts those are ( and I am taking the long look forward to the next edition of the game here ), it is the duty of the customers to point out where those improvements could be applied.
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Yar.
That was one thread out of the many, many threads which blew up to monstrous size about the class.
Perhaps it's my luck with the search engine, but I'm not seeing it. There are a number of monk related threads in the Pathfinder RPG General Discussion forum, and most of them are single digits in post lengths, some are in the teens to 20's, and there are a small handful that broke 100 posts (all nothing compared to the 1667 of the previously mentioned thread). I've even been trying to read through them, and I'm finding something interesting: they contain very little to no actual suggestions, fixes, or house rules. They are mostly about the actual rules as they are written, visuals of what is being described, and other general concepts as appropriate to the Pathfinder RPG. The most I've found so far was 1 posts and 2 replies out of 135 posts that mention a possible alternative, and one single comment saying "they really should have just ... rather than list them." That is such a small percentage of the overall posts in that thread that it, apparently, wasn't worth moving it to a different forum.
Heck, there's even a good one about "how do you do it", which was about the current (at the time) split in interpretation of a rule. However, that still belongs in the Pathfinder RPG general forum as the central point of it wasn't "homebrew" at all, nor suggesting changes, fixes, or alternate solutions, but instead focused on how you interpret and use the text as presented in the Pathfinder RPG with full knowledge of multiple legitimate interpretations.
Perhaps it is my search skills failing at this particular moment, but I seem to be unable to find these threads that blew up due to talking about proposed rules changes, fixes, and houserules located outside of either the Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew forum, or the Rules Questions forum.
The thread relocation that started this thread had evolved into having most of the posts be about suggested rule changes. Going back and reading it again, it really did. I cannot bemoan an 'unjust move' that I do not see as being unjust.
~P
So, we're to tolerate obnoxious jerks because they are fulfilling their *customer duty*? No thanks.
I already said that I don't agree with shallowsouls posting style. Unless you want to say that everybody who complains about a part of the system is an obnoxious jerk, which you surely do not.
The issue here is more fundamental, though, which is why I am a bit riled up myself. Unless I am mistaken, the mods have pretty much announced that all discussion of the magic item creation system is now to be ruled "homebrewn", since it won't be changed for this edition. If compared to most rules discussions which tackle if a certain part of the rules ( although normally a smaller part, like a single feat, feat chain or skill ) is well balanced, it does not compute why this particular discussion would merit it being summarily dismissed in this way.
Yar.
That was one thread out of the many, many threads which blew up to monstrous size about the class.Perhaps it's my luck with the search engine, but I'm not seeing it. There are a number of monk related threads in the Pathfinder RPG General Discussion forum, and most of them are single digits in post lengths, some are in the teens to 20's, and there are a small handful that broke 100 posts (all nothing compared to the 1667 of the previously mentioned thread). I've even been trying to read through them, and I'm finding something interesting: they contain very little to no actual suggestions, fixes, or house rules. They are mostly about the actual rules as they are written, visuals of what is being described, and other general concepts as appropriate to the Pathfinder RPG. The most I've found so far was 1 posts and 2 replies out of 135 posts that mention a possible alternative, and one single comment saying "they really should have just ... rather than list them." That is such a small percentage of the overall posts in that thread that it, apparently, wasn't worth moving it to a different forum.
Heck, there's even a good one about "how do you do it", which was about the current (at the time) split in interpretation of a rule. However, that still belongs in the Pathfinder RPG general forum as the central point of it wasn't "homebrew" at all, nor suggesting changes, fixes, or alternate solutions, but instead focused on how you interpret and use the text as presented in the Pathfinder RPG with full knowledge of multiple legitimate interpretations.
Perhaps it is my search skills failing at this particular moment, but I seem to be unable to find these threads that blew up due to talking about proposed rules changes, fixes, and houserules located outside of either the Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew forum, or the Rules Questions forum.
The thread relocation that started this thread had evolved into having most of the posts be about suggested rule changes. Going...
Issues with the Monk were not only extensively discussed in threads labeled for being about the Monk. There was, just in the last year, the huge kerfluffle in one of the Ultimate Equipment threads, there were discussions in threads about self-enhancement vs. magic item christmas tree threads and so on.
Hell, Monk threads were one of the running jokes of the last years for popping up every week, together with Paladin and alignment threads.
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Yar!
I actually see it as an announcement of "all discussions revolving around suggesting changes to {insert any paizo published rules here} need to be in the Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew forum, as that's the forum we have designated for the discussion of suggestions for rule changes, as well as for posting similar content such as house rules, and so forth".
I respectfully disagree with the phrasing of "dismissed as a homebrewn discussion". It hasn't been dismissed. And it hasn't been called homebrewn. It has been relocated for organizational purposes - being a thread that turned into something centered around suggested rules changes - to the forum designated specifically for suggested rule changes.
For the fourth time, the Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew forum is not only about homebrew, but also (and by the forum name, I'd say primarily) for suggested changes to the rules.
Which the thread in question had become.
~P
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Well, I imagine that goes like this:
Dev1: "Can we make changes to Monk class at some point, without having to rewrite one whole chapter of the book and breaking up word count, layout and backwardscomp?"
Dev2: "Yeah, that's techincally doable"
Dev1: "All right, let's keep those Monk threads in General, because we're going back to this topic at some point".
contrast with
Dev1: "Can we make changes to magic item creation at some point, without having to rewrite one whole chapter of the book and breaking up word count, layout and backwardscomp?"
Dev2: "Not really, it's buried too deep in the system."
Dev1: "All right, let's keep those mic threads somewhere where people look for player-made solutions."
That's pretty much the same as asking to remove the iteratives, ditch vancian, rewrite the skill system or any other topic that calls for throwing things upside down. Double so in case of shallowsoul, who's pretty much demanding for a part of a 3.5e paradigm to be reverted to 1e/2e. As far as I've gleaned what the devs think about the 1e/2e paradigm, that's not happening.
Yar!
Issues with the Monk were not only extensively discussed in threads labeled for being about the Monk. There was, just in the last year, the huge kerfluffle in one of the Ultimate Equipment threads, there were discussions in threads about self-enhancement vs. magic item christmas tree threads and so on.
Hell, Monk threads were one of the running jokes of the last years for popping up every week...
Yes, but where are the ones where the bulk of the posts in the thread in conjunction with being on topic with the thread title were about proposed fixes, suggested rules changes, and houserules?
I cannot read the minds of the paizo staff, but I can guess that that has something to do with this all.
~P
What I want to do is make a thread which is concerned with the philosophical underpinnings of the magic item crafting system and how it can be applied in the next edition of the game. I know that in this edition there won't be extensive changes ( if only for the logistical reason of everybody having CRB's with the current rules ) and that it may be still quite early for talking about any next edition.
I simply don't want this kind of discussion by general fiat to be moved to a section of the boards which I think is inappropiate for it.
You can blame SKR for me ruminating about this so much lately. His thread about the cost of Raise Dead/Ressurection got me to think a lot about the "Why?" of some of the fundamental game systems of Pathfinder. Like magic item crafting and the resting system, for example.
Yar!
magnuskn, that sounds like a really cool thread and arena for discussion. Of course, if it ends up changing from "philosophical underpinnings" to become mostly focused upon "rules/mechanics suggestions", then I would say that the Suggestions forum is indeed the appropriate place for it to be. But if it does happen to stay on the topic of the philosophies behind the concepts and implementations thereof, then one of the more general forums is exactly where it should stay.
EDIT: fixed some typing errors and expanded my thoughts a wee little bit.
~P
Yar!
magnuskn, that sounds like a really cool thread and arena for discussion. Of source, if it ends up changing from "philosophical underpinnings" to become mostly focused upon "rules/mechanics suggestions", then I would say that the Suggestions forum is indeed the appropriate place for it to be. But if it does happen to stay on the topic of the philosophies behind the concepts, then one of the more general forums is where it should stay.
~P
The problem here is that any discussion of the philosophical underpinnings and how it can be applied to the next edition would of course include some discussion on how the rules would change in a new edition.
I also see the danger of such a discussion devolving into a three-way shouting match between the different factions in that debate, but them's the breaks.
Maybe I am completely off-base here, but I think the suggestions/homebrew forum is a place the developers don't look at. I'd like to at least be able to believe that the devs are looking at the threads in the three main forums and may be swayed by good, well thought-out arguments.
We wouldn't have any of these problems if we had sticked with 3.5e!!
Yar!
magnuskn: True, but that is where it becomes a judgement call... does the mention of the rule changes become the apparent central focus of the thread, or just an addition to it? If it were to become the central focus of it (as the thread that started this seemed to do), then a move would be warranted.
As for staff going into the Suggestions forum, yes, they do. And they have posted comments about how they like a suggestions, a house rule, and so forth.
An example in the flurry thread here which we know the end result of (the Monkeying around FAQ that implemented some of the ideas brought up during that whole fiasco).
And then there's a positive comment about a homebrew/custom feat here.
There have been links to brand new FAQ's posted by SKR in threads in the Suggestions forum as they relate to the suggestions being suggested.
And more (sorry, I'm only willing to search so much at one time, and it is getting late for me), but in short, there is evidence that the staff do into the Suggestions forum, read, respond, and even consider.
^_^
EDIT: reworded a few lines
~P
We wouldn't have any of these problems if we had sticked with 3.5e!!
You got it wrong, that would happen if we sticked with 0e. Gygax has shown us a way and we strayed from it, and now we pay for every yard.
Yar!
magnuskn: True, but that is where it becomes a judgement call... does the mention of the rule changes become the apparent central focus of the thread, or just an addition to it? If it were to become the central focus of it (as the thread that started this seemed to do), then a move would be warranted.
As for staff going into the Suggestions forum, yes, they do. And they have posted comments about how they like a suggestions, a house rule, and so forth.
An example in the flurry thread here which we know the end result of (the Monkeying around FAQ that implemented some of the ideas brought up during that whole fiasco).
And then there's a positive comment about a homebrew/custom feat here.
And many more!
~P
Hrrmmmmm. Maybe I am just suspicious on general grounds, since in other games / fictional universe thing-ies the Suggestion/Homebrew/Fan-Fiction boards never see any developer traffic.
I still think that you cannot easily separate a discussion of this particular topic from any other discussions of the rule system. It sucks in general if a topic of which you thought it would be appropiate to post it in a certain section gets moved to a section with an entirely different focus.
Yar!
I do agree that it is not easy to always keep different focuses separate. Of course, the moment someone posts something, it becomes a public thing, greatly out of their hands to control. Sometimes things change, sometimes they don't. I do not envy the staff who try to determine when something's focus has shifted to the point of no longer being appropriate in the current forum, but it can and does happen.
Simply for the perspective of future visitors to this site who are looking for something specific to fuel their creative processes (or for whatever purpose they have for coming here), I am glad that the staff here do move threads to the appropriate forums if/when it becomes apparent that the central focus of it makes it belong somewhere else. I am glad there is the attempt to make this place user friendly for new faces. I do think it is a sign that they care about their customers, current and future.
~P
Oh, they do without a doubt. Compared to other forums, the moderation staff is extremely approacheable. Even if I disagree with some of their decisions. ;)
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Yar!
Well, then, why were the Monk discussions not moved to Suggestions/Homebrew?You mean the giant monster of a thread that was Flurry of Changes to Flurry of Blows which is where the most discussion of the clarifications and suggestions of fixes took place? Because that actually was moved to the Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew forum. I honestly do not see the double standard here.
I do not believe that paizo is "shunting" threads to other forums, especially not as a means to shut them down. I've eluded to this already, as have the very staff that move threads. The reason for thread relocation is to keep these forums organized for the benefits of future visitors so that it is easier for them to find the topics they are searching for. This is about organization. There is nothing malicious about it (Yes, that is a strong word that no one has said yet, but the implications of some posts suggest that feeling).
And I will say it a third time: The Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew forum is for discussing suggestions for changes to the core rules as well as homebrew things. At the moment, they are not mutually exclusive entities, hence why "Suggestions" is the very first word in the name of the forum.
Of course, the suggestion of separating Suggestions and Homebrew into two separate forums is an idea worth investigating. May I suggest a new thread (with an appropriate title) in the Website feedback forum to make a stronger case for, and to more appropriately discuss, such a alteration to this site?
~P
YAR!
And if you go back to the thread that was based off of because it was locked, you will see that it was in the Rules forum and not homebrew.
YAR!
Seems to me like it was a repeat of what we have now. The devs made a decision, someone didn't like it so they made a thread about it, built up some steam, devs decided to move it the homebrew even though it had nothing to do with homebrew when you actually read the thread in hopes that it would quiet down, it didn't and look what happened.
YAR YAR YAR!!!
Edit: I feel like I'm Vince Vaughn from "Dodgeball" and I want to grab you by the scruff and tell you that you are not a pirate.
So in the monk case they locked the discussion occuring in the rules forum and when the discussion was reopened with some suggestions they moved the thread to the suggestions forum?
Good-O.
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Gar?
The original was locked because people were getting overly nasty towards each other, aka being jerks. The very first listed and declared as the most important rule of these message boards is "dont be a jerk." There is no need to relocate a thread that has been locked. Again, locking a thread is the proverbial "stop this nonsense, let it die". Relocation is "Lets keep this site organized, with threads were they belong based on their content, so future visitors to our site will be able to have their needs met." It has nothing to do with hoping it will "quiet down". It really doesn't. You can still post there to your hearts content. And I see that you actually are continuing the discussion there, along with many other posters! Congratulations! The relocation was not detrimental after all.
...and for the fifth time: The Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew forum is not homebrew only as is being implied by some, it is actually primarily for rules suggestions. The current organization of this message boards lumps suggestions for rules changes and homebrew content together. This is not a hierarchy if relevance. It is simply a method of keeping content organized. That thread was moved to the Suggestions forum because the content evolved to be primarily about suggested rule changes. That forum IS about suggestions to the core rules, as well as (in addition to, not in exclusion of) house rules and homebrew material.
Heck, a bit earlier in this thread, magnuskn made a fabulous suggestion about this orginization of these messageboards here, to which you enthusiastically agreed with here, and I even agreed with and continued with a suggestion on how to make it a reality right here.
I understand if you don't want to click the links and open a bunch of new tabs/windows, so I'll copy-past it now as well:
Maybe the best would be to create a "Pathfinder System Discussion" sub-forum, so that people could have those theorycraft discussions without being mixed in with the homebrewn stuff, which is another type of topic entirely.
"Here is my homebrewn Swashbuckler class!" is just a completely different type of thread from the "These are the flaws of the magic item creation system" type and should not, IMO, be on the same forum.
Agreed!
Discussing the need to change a part of the system and possible ways to do it is completely different than you talking about changes you are going to do in your home games.
...the suggestion of separating Suggestions and Homebrew into two separate forums is an idea worth investigating. May I suggest a new thread (with an appropriate title) in the Website feedback forum to make a stronger case for, and to more appropriately discuss, such a alteration to this site?
So again, I will reiterate: This is a good idea and (as far as I can tell) will help to alleviate much of the apparent headaches going on. You feel that a forum for suggesting changes to the core rules and a forum for presenting house rules and homebrew content should be separate entities. Currently they are meshed together. If you are serious about this change in the organization of this website, the best way to go about it is as I suggested above: "a new thread (with an appropriate title) in the Website feedback forum to make a stronger case for, and to more appropriately discuss, such a alteration to this site".
I hope you do not take my advice as an offense, it is not. It is simply advice. I know that unsolicited advice is subconsciously taken as an offense (hurray for human nature), so I implore readers to not take my posts as an attack, but as genuine desire to make things better in a respectful manner. Of course, in that light, I truly do hope that you are able to take my advice seriously. It is being put out here to the benefit of you and all future visitors to this site.
PS: hehe, I was a Pirate long before Dodgeball came out and presented Steve the Pirate. Still, fun movie. ^_^
You may not think I'm a Pirate, and that's okay. I do not think that you have a shallow soul. You actually appear to be full of life, energy, and fire. However, may I request that we both stop the comments on each others aliases? Such comments can be easily construed as an attack.
Thanks,
~P
When the developers talk about changes to the rules, they are by definition *not* homebrew. When anyone else does, they are.
Well now you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. It can't be the "homebrew" forum for developers so nothing they post goes there and the "suggestions" forum for players so everything they post goes there. How a forum for "discussion of the rules as they are" can preclude discussing problems with those rules is beyond me.
And yes, I see lots of suggestions that don't amount to "Paizo should make people play it this way." Sounds like you don't spend a lot of time in the Suggestions forum. Which I think was the problem that caused this anyway....
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So, we're to tolerate obnoxious jerks because they are fulfilling their *customer duty*? No thanks.Might want to follow your own logic.
Why you aren't as blunt as some of us, you dance on the edge and do it in a sly way.
So Mr Kettle meet Mr Black.
HA! Gorbacz likes to play Mr Kettle and Mr Black against each other not realizing that they're both parts of his split personality.
Chief Technical Officer
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When the developers talk about changes to the rules, they are by definition *not* homebrew. When anyone else does, they are.Well now you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. It can't be the "homebrew" forum for developers so nothing they post goes there and the "suggestions" forum for players so everything they post goes there. How a forum for "discussion of the rules as they are" can preclude discussing problems with those rules is beyond me.
And yes, I see lots of suggestions that don't amount to "Paizo should make people play it this way." Sounds like you don't spend a lot of time in the Suggestions forum. Which I think was the problem that caused this anyway....
You may be misinterpreting me. What I'm saying is that if we made a forum where the stated purpose was "propose changes to the official rules", I believe that a very large number of the people who currently post in the suggestions/homebrew forum would choose to post there instead.
Maybe the best would be to create a "Pathfinder System Discussion" sub-forum, so that people could have those theorycraft discussions without being mixed in with the homebrewn stuff, which is another type of topic entirely.
"Here is my homebrewn Swashbuckler class!" is just a completely different type of thread from the "These are the flaws of the magic item creation system" type and should not, IMO, be on the same forum.
I think you just got this discussion point right on the nail. I would strongly suggest a "Pathfinder System Discussion" sub-form as well.
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You may be misinterpreting me. What I'm saying is that if we made a forum where the stated purpose was "propose changes to the official rules", I believe that a very large number of the people who currently post in the suggestions/homebrew forum would choose to post there instead.When the developers talk about changes to the rules, they are by definition *not* homebrew. When anyone else does, they are.Well now you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. It can't be the "homebrew" forum for developers so nothing they post goes there and the "suggestions" forum for players so everything they post goes there. How a forum for "discussion of the rules as they are" can preclude discussing problems with those rules is beyond me.
And yes, I see lots of suggestions that don't amount to "Paizo should make people play it this way." Sounds like you don't spend a lot of time in the Suggestions forum. Which I think was the problem that caused this anyway....
Home-brew/Suggestions seems more like making new weapons, armor, prestige classes, and base classes. Not commenting on what you think needs to be changed in general.
I made a thread not too long ago asking for charisma archetypes for the Magus and Inquisitor. I posted this in the Paizo Products section because I saw a very popular Bestiary Wish-List threads in that section, it got shunted to Home-brew. That really didn't seem fair that one could request something in a products section but I couldn't. Was it simply because my thread wasn't as popular?
Even I feel that the current thread in question was more about a rules discussion (aka General Discussion) rather than a home-brew. Yes they might have been making suggestions, but that is only to assist in a purposed problem, not designing an entire new system for alternate play.
My point is, that the line between general discussion, products, etc... and home-brew does seem to be more along the line of the thread's popularity. Which isn't right.
Alright, I plead for the mods to comb every thread ever and move everything where someone dares to say something along of "I think X should be done like this" to the suggestion/homebrew forum.
I mean, let's be fair here and apply this standard equally to everything, right?
Or, maybe let people strew in some suggestions without forcibly moving their threads, when the main thrust of the thread is actually about something else.
If every thread about perceived problems in the system is in constant danger of being forcibly moved to another forum, then something is wrong with the forum set-up. As I said in the post you are quoting, maybe it would be better to create a separate forum for that kind of thread, so that theorycrafting like that can be done without the disruption a thread move creates.
Yar.
Again (but in different words), this is not a black and white "one post makes a thread belong in a different forum" moderation system. It is a judgement call about when the purpose of a thread (that is, when the primary topic of many posts, not just spread out through the thread, but in relation to the direction of the discussion) changes to a topic that relates to a specific forum.
For example, the aforementioned monk thread that was locked in the rules forum. After it was last brought up, I went back and read the entire thread. Yup, every post in it. I discovered a grand total of 1 single post making a suggested rules change/fix to the discussed issue. 1 out of 536, with a handful (3 or 4) that replied directly to it. That was it. Most every other post was about interpretations of the rules as written, with a few about stylistic comparisons of the mechanics to real world simulations, but for the most part, the posts were about the rules, what the rules meant, and how to interpret them. I think that's pretty appropriate for the Rules Questions forum.
In contrast, the thread that started this discussion started off fairly general, but started to morph into a thread made up of posts primarily about suggested changes and fixes. I counted over 35 posts that were specifically about a suggested fix, with close to that amount being a generic discussion or comments about them, and a higher concentration of them as the thread went along. That is: in the first page, there were 3 posts that were obviously "suggested fixes", in the second page, there was closer to 9 posts about "suggested fixes", and by the third page, there are over 20 posts about "suggested fixes". Also taking into account some of the vitriolic posts that were deleted, that is a lot of posts in relation to the total post count of the thread at that time which also showed a trend of increasing focus about suggested fixes rather than general discussion about the rules and how they do or do not work. Before it got moved, even I was thinking "wow, this should probably get moved to the Suggestions forum", and shortly after, it did.
It should also be pointed out (my apologies, I do not have time this morning to search out exact quotes and links... but here is one) that the paizo staff do have full time jobs (producing fabulous products for us gamers) that are naturally their priority before the message boards. Even if every single one of them dedicated all of their full-time hours to reading through and moderating these boards, they would still have a difficult time doing it all. As Khrysaor just said (and I remember the staff here specifically saying this before as well), the flagging system was created to help them with this, as moderating the forums on their own is realistically not possible for them. All they can do is try and ask for our help, and we have the power to help via the flagging system in place.
Although I cannot say for 100 % certainty (as I am not staff), I have a very strong feeling that the community base using the flagging system to flag threads that they feel should be moved in conjunction with the staff who try to moderate these boards getting notified of these flags and checking out the threads in question with a more critical eye and making tough judgement calls on weather it is a valid flagging concern or not is a strong factor in the relocation of threads. I do not believe that it has anything to do with popularity or someone on the staff being sensitive to a topic at all. It is a team effort between the staff here and the community at large in an effort to keep things organized.
I've seen the staff make these (and similar) comments before: "Flag it and move on." "If you think a thread should be in a different forum, please flag it and we will see if it deserves a move or not." ... and so on. May I recommend then that, if you find a thread that you feel is in the wrong forum, flag it for relocation. That is the best thing we as a community can do to help the staff here moderate these boards fairly for all involved.
I do hope this helps clarify things. Again, I may not be staff, but I have been observing these boards for a long time. If I am wrong in my current assumptions I will gladly admit my error and move on, but at the moment this is my belief on how and why things are working the way they currently are.
EDIT: magnuskn: I understand your frustration with this. I honestly do. However, I have yet to see anyone take a truly active step to alleviate this issue: post a new thread with an appropriate title in the Website Feedback forum suggesting the change in forum organization. Sure, there are comments in here about it, but to really get the ball rolling, to get the staff who are capable of making such a change's attention, the best way really is to make a new thread (posted in a respectful manner) specifically about it.
~P
Yeah, I was kinda occupied during the week with work and today I had a lot to do. I'll try to make it work tomorrow.
What I really wanted to do is make a post-monster about magic item crafting and the underlying philosophy. But at the moment I am feeling that this is fundamentally a waste of time, as shallowsoul has managed to make a good number of people completely tired of magic item crafting discussion and I fear that "flagging to move the thread" is rather retaliatory against the topic itself rather than the content of the thread.
I'll probably try instead to start a discussion about the resting system in regard to its interaction with the "limited resource" Paizo core classes and AP expectations about dealing with limited time scenarios. I'm sadly much less prepared for that topic, though.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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Alright, I plead for the mods to comb every thread ever and move everything where someone dares to say something along of "I think X should be done like this" to the suggestion/homebrew forum.
As you see them, flag them and the moderators will review them. That's how the system works.
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Alright, I plead for the mods to comb every thread ever and move everything where someone dares to say something along of "I think X should be done like this" to the suggestion/homebrew forum.As you see them, flag them and the moderators will review them. That's how the system works.
And let us know when you're finished - combing thru every thread is a daunting task, and we will be right there with congratulations if you manage to pull it off!
Hey, I'm not the one suddenly wanting to move theorycrafting threads which dare to make some suggestions into another forum. If the mods feel that it is necessary, I say they should apply that standard rigorously, not just for some threads.
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In that vein, I'll wait with posting a thread on the resting system and its philosophy until there is some answer if a separate theorycrafting/suggestions forum from the homebrewn/houserules forum is feasible. I wouldn't want it to be yanked from the forum I post it in, after all.
Well, first off, if I want create a thread in one forum which is appropiate for its original intent, I intensely dislike it that, in case that discussion gets derailed for a period of time, it suddenly is in danger of being forcibly removed from the place where I originally intended it to be.
Secondly, if we take your suggestion of "it doesn't matter anyway" seriously, Paizo might as well eliminate all sub-forums.
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Well, first off, if I want create a thread in one forum which is appropiate for its original intent, I intensely dislike it that, in case that discussion gets derailed for a period of time, it suddenly is in danger of being forcibly removed from the place where I originally intended it to be.
That's understandable. I wanted to see if your concern was that the forum might drive the discussion, or negatively influence who sees or participates in the thread. It sounds like that's not the case and this is a matter of personal taste concerning threads you feel you have some ownership in.
Secondly, if we take your suggestion of "it doesn't matter anyway" seriously, Paizo might as well eliminate all sub-forums.
Firstly, I didn't suggest that it doesn't matter, nor did I say that as your quotes would imply. You're inferring more from my questions than is actually there.
Secondly, I don't see why Paizo shouldn't feel free to organize their forums anyway they see fit and move threads around per their judgement. If they have a particular way they want to handle how and when threads get rearranged, that's their prerogative.-Skeld
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It seems to me their primary concern here is that the rules sub forum be a good place to go if you want to know how the rules work.
As such, it's easy to see that discussions about how some people think the rules should be changed could easily be counter to that goal.
Whether those discussions sit well in a forum about house rules (as they are currently) is a matter of opinion. Makes sense to me, but I'm not one to start such discussions so I probably just don't fully understand the issue.
i don't really see what's lost by having suggested changes to the rules sitting next to reports of how other people have changed the rules in their home games. To me, that would be a point worth articulating.
Well, first off, if I want create a thread in one forum which is appropiate for its original intent, I intensely dislike it that, in case that discussion gets derailed for a period of time, it suddenly is in danger of being forcibly removed from the place where I originally intended it to be.That's understandable. I wanted to see if your concern was that the forum might drive the discussion, or negatively influence who sees or participates in the thread. It sounds like that's not the case and this is a matter of personal taste concerning threads you feel you have some ownership in.
Actually, yes, that is a secondary concern. I personally don't use the homebrewn forum and mostly ignore it. I think I may not be the only one to do so, because things posted there seem less "legit" than discussion in the General/Advice/Rules forums.
Secondly, if we take your suggestion of "it doesn't matter anyway" seriously, Paizo might as well eliminate all sub-forums.Firstly, I didn't suggest that it doesn't matter, nor did I say that as your quotes would imply. You're inferring more from my questions than is actually there.
Secondly, I don't see why Paizo shouldn't feel free to organize their forums anyway they see fit and move threads around per their judgement. If they have a particular way they want to handle how and when threads get rearranged, that's their prerogative.
Yes, but that doesn't mean that it cannot be improved and that all feedback from customers has no relevance. I made a thread asking for a separation of the Suggestion section from the Homebrewn/Houserules forum, to create a Theorycrafting/Suggestions forum. So far there has been no resonance from the forum staff, although that could of course be due to it being the weekend.
about self-enhancement vs. magic item christmas tree threads
Which, by the way, I'm using the majority of the suggestions expressed by Evil Lincoln in one of those threads in my current KM game. They seem to be working rather well so far! Admittedly, I don't remember which forum I found it in, alas.
Additionally, I'll say this whole argument being made by a certain few about thread-moving has indeed been rather nonsensical. There are far better places and reasons to harbor anger than at devs moving threads to where they're supposed to go.