| toscrawford |
I'm old-school D&D 1.0 and like to focus heavy on the combat, light on the role play, extra light on the cities. I'm also struggling to absorb the few thousand pages of overlapping rules that make up Pathfinder and have a group of kids to DM for. I've completed module 1 of Second Darkness and found it an absolute bear to DM.
1) What modules/Adventure Paths are combat heavy?
2) What modules/Adventure Paths come with those nice little blocks of text that say read this to the characters and include all the monster stats without requiring to look them up?
3) Which of the above have a relatively linear game-play or some predictable path that the characters will follow?
| Pendagast |
1) second darkness isn't bad as soon as you get out of the first part of the AP (the end fight with the drow is cool)
2) it doesn't happen any more, I know exactly what you are talking about. I hate reading a description of a room only to loos down once Im finished and realize there are monsters in the room, that arent mentioned in what I just read to the players.
3) Modules D0 D1 D1.5 D2 and D3 are a good place to start, it's how we started 'pathfinder' (although those are 3.5 modules)
| Demiurge 1138 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8 |
Shattered Star is very linear and has a lot of combats. There are definitely elements of RP that can be played up, or ignored as the GM desires.
As for included stat-blocks, you're out of luck. The dungeon writeups all use monsters from Bestiary 1, and later APs assume access to Bestiary 2 and 3. Council of Thieves, Kingmaker and Serpent's Skull were all published before B2, but they're all pretty RP-heavy paths (to a greater or lesser extent).
| mcv |
The first part of the Council of Thieves campaign I'm playing in was basically jumping from one combat to the next.
I suspect there was supposed to be more roleplay and exploration, but for whatever reason, the GM decided to skip most of that and jump straight to the combats.
After that, there's some social bits, and then the real dungeon crawl starts, and it sounds like that dungeon crawl is basically preparation for the next one, which sounds really big. And it all feels very linear so far
I don't know if it's supposed to play like this, mind you. I'd expected to see a lot more city in a city-based adventure. Perhaps it's GMing style. The GM also said that the first part of the AP isn't really all that good (though it has some pretty interesting combats). Whatever it is, this kind of play works quite well if you only really care about the combat. (Personally I really prefer exploration and roleplay, though.)
| toscrawford |
The kids don't know what they want because this is their first time out. I like combat because I'm better at DMing it, and this is my first DM role in 15 years so I'm going with my comfort. Some of the characters were created 100% combat (20 Str, 7 Chr) before we really knew how disruptive that can be at low level. We even have a Cleric with a 21 AC that none of my monsters can hit, which at least is better than instant killing my monsters.
Back to Ciaran's point, the kids don't know how to role play yet. Our 18 Chr Rogue has a broken player, the rest of the characters could do it in theory, but in doing so would fail to stay in character because of universally low charisma. I've decided the whole lot of them need new characters so they can go to the local convention and play with experienced DMs who will give them the role play flavor, plus we're going to give the heavy fighter character a vacation for the next module and bring in a balanced replacement. Learning.
| Pendagast |
interesting.
when you are at low levels (especially first) there is some weirdness with uber stats (like a 20 str) that 'freak' the system out. But it doesn't last long, super armored cleric soon enough (mid levels) wont have an AC that's worth spit any more and a 20 str will be something the fighter needs just to keep up.
This is usually why some people build the characters they build.
However, I am with you, the rounded cohesive characters seem to play better, IMO.
As a General rule, I do not allow 20s in stats at first level, it's not a hard fast rule...just more of an extreme discouragement that's generally followed because some of the players at my table have had the same experiences (we were all there together for it).
The exception is casters, you pretty much HAVE to max their casting stat or by level 9-10 too many things are making saving throws too often.
With that being said, the early tank (which is almost always a fighter or a cleric) at low levels happens often at our table. We do it on purpose for party survival. Low level encounters can be really deadly, both ways.
I'm not sure switching out the characters is a good idea, tho unless the players themselves don't like their characters or want to change.
As the players level, the super stats are going to become less awesome. So if they are enjoying their awesomeness, I'd let it ride for now.
| Steve Geddes |
I'd go for Shattered Star or possibly Crypt of the Everflame and it's sequels.
What does "being a bear to DM" mean? Is it a good thing or a bad thing? :/
| Kolokotroni |
I'm old-school D&D 1.0 and like to focus heavy on the combat, light on the role play, extra light on the cities. I'm also struggling to absorb the few thousand pages of overlapping rules that make up Pathfinder and have a group of kids to DM for. I've completed module 1 of Second Darkness and found it an absolute bear to DM.
1) What modules/Adventure Paths are combat heavy?
2) What modules/Adventure Paths come with those nice little blocks of text that say read this to the characters and include all the monster stats without requiring to look them up?
3) Which of the above have a relatively linear game-play or some predictable path that the characters will follow?
1) Most paizo material is going to mix combat and roleplay. The general market wants more of a mix now adays. Paizo is probably not where you want to look.
2) Again paizo material isnt going to help you here. The have a far more open design to their adventures including dungeons, you have to read what they tell you and interpret it. You cant just run it without thinking about it, by reading the box text.
To that End I suggest you look at 3rd party material for your adventures. Many of them do an older style layout with more box text and less exposition.
Super genius games one night stands are pretty good for this. They are very straight forward adventures, and are designed to be run nearly on the fly. You have everything you need right in the module, including dungeon tiles and paper minis you can prind out.
| toscrawford |
Liz, a bear means really hard, which is bad. I'm struggling enough to get a basic grasp of the game mechanics. Shadow in the Sky had me gathering and consolidating data from four different points in the module just to handle a simple encounter. It was almost as if they expected I'd memorize the bloody thing in order to do the integration points properly. On top of that the linear flow of the module, what there was of it, bounced all over the book. Its too much for me to absorb without spending weeks lying awake at night reading and re-reading. It's a 'bear' means the module makes my job harder. Modules should make the job of the DM easier.
| Steve Geddes |
Liz, a bear means really hard, which is bad. I'm struggling enough to get a basic grasp of the game mechanics. Shadow in the Sky had me gathering and consolidating data from four different points in the module just to handle a simple encounter. It was almost as if they expected I'd memorize the bloody thing in order to do the integration points properly. On top of that the linear flow of the module, what there was of it, bounced all over the book. Its too much for me to absorb without spending weeks lying awake at night reading and re-reading. It's a 'bear' means the module makes my job harder. Modules should make the job of the DM easier.
Ah thanks (it was me who asked that, not Liz). I'd never heard the phrase before.
Based on all of that, I'd really recommend looking into Crypt of the Everflame. There's read-aloud sections and a much more straightforward story - you still need to look up monster stats, but it's relatively easy to predict what order the players will fight them in, so preparation is relatively easy in that regard.
It's the first in a series of three modules - unfortunately the second module, Masks of the Living God doesnt sound like it would suit your group (less dungeony and fighty and more urban/roleplay focussed) so that might take a bit of effort on your behalf - there is a convenient NPC who could perhaps take more of a "give detailed missions" approach. The final module in the series, City of Golden Death is a bit more straightforward though.
In terms of the APs, I think Shattered Star is most likely to suit your group best. Lots of pretty linear dungeons, a patron giving the PCs pretty clear hints/directions as to where to go next. Paizo dont generally include monster statblocks (beyond the bare essentials) so there's no way around the "looking stuff up" issue, I'm afraid. At least with the more linear adventures you know pretty much what they'll be fighting any given session.
| Steve Geddes |
Can anyone explain why Paizo think's there's something wrong with trying to make the DM's job easier?
Whether they provide you with what you're looking for or not (have you looked into PFS scenarios or Crypt of the Everflame?) Paizo pretty clearly dont think there's anything wrong with making the DM's job easier. The modules make my life much easier - where I struggle is coming up with interesting, logical, coherent storylines - Paizo make that much easier (they basically do it all for me).
Maybe Pathfinder isnt the right game. FWIW, I run exclusively paizo modules but using 4th edition D&D or Swords & Wizardry by preference (and currently Dungeon Crawl Classics). I do very little preparatory work beyond reading the module a couple of times and reading the upcoming section the night before.
In my opinion, the ease of running a game is much more heavily tied to the ruleset you're using than the adventure. (No doubt that's a function of style though).
When I play Pathfinder Society I don't see the DM's looking things up. Am I alone in thinking a DM for Dummy's module line would be a big hit?
Have you used a PFS scenario? They seem relatively straightforward to me - perhaps that's more suited to your needs.
| toscrawford |
I've played PFS but have only DM'd the first second darkness module, that had me longing for the good old days. The PFS leaves me short on the story arc that I assume will be part and parcel of an adventure path. What I'm looking for is the happy place that includes an easy to DM PFS (assumption, I haven't done it) and the complex story arc of an adventure path. It wouldn't be hard to do. To play the game properly every DM has to do it anyway. Why not do it once professionally and save the DM all the headaches. It's not like he can't or won't override the module to suit the parties needs.
Steve, I'd venture to guess you've got a dozen or more modules under your DM belt. I'm sure it get's easier with experience. I'm also sure the module I started with is worse than average when it comes to DM complexity as I've seen others make some of the same comments. Bad luck of the draw that, but how would it hurt things to give a room summary box? They provide info on the room, but from my experience they intersperse public info with private info, so you either have to carefully watch every word you say when you read it, paraphrase it, or write out a public description the night beforehand so you aren't put on the spot when the players get there. There's a better solution IMO.
As for the module suggestions everyone has made, thanks. I can't research each of them now and render an opinion, but they will all be on my short list when it's time to start a fresh campaign.
As for trying something different, that ship has sailed. The group and I are way too far invested in Pathfinder to consider going somewhere else. 3rd party modules I'm open to. I've got a large stack of 1.0 modules and know how to DM those, has anyone converted them?
I've got half a mind to write a series of DM for Dummies modules, much like the Beginner Box but streamlined by assuming you already understand the basics. Simple dungeon crawl stuff with a story line tacked on should suffice. Assault on Goblin Keep. Back to basic hack and slash. Yum. Very tempting.
| Steve Geddes |
No worries, I think you should try the module line rather than the APs. They are a little more linear and have "read aloud text" sections (not full monster stat blocks though).
There are some free PDFs here so you can see if they're better suited. Good luck. :)
| Itchy |
I know this won't solve all your questions, but I'll address the monster statblock question. I recommend going to the PRD and printing out all of the monster statblocks that you need. There are no pictures there, but you'll have the statblocks. Then you can just jot the encounter number on top, fold the paper, and stick it in the page with the encounter. A side bonus of this is that you can track monster HP on the side.
Alternatively, if you game with a laptop open (I use a little tiny netbook), you could check out Kyle Olsen's Combat Manager. Here's a thread about it. It is free. It can help you track initiative. It has all the monsters in the bestiaries in it, so you can have the statblocks in front of you. You can set up each encounter and save it ahead of time, then just load that encounter when the players walk in. It also has a dice roller. I find it to be a robust resource for a time strapped GM.
Also, someone mentioned running Red Hand of Doom. I'll be starting that soon. Here's a thread with the conversion done for you. Red Hand of Doom Conversion Thread
Good Luck with your game!
-Aaron