Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Right now it looks like we have a few different summaries of opinions. In no particular order:
- 1. People who believe that skimpy outfits should not be available
- 2. People who believe that skimpy versions should be required
- 3. People who believe that both options should be available with essentially no mechanical differences (including the cases where the same stats could have either style and where glamered equipment is available and cheap)
- 4. People who believe that skimpy armor should be available, but with significant mechanical differences (including the cases were glamered equipment is not available or has a significant cost or opportunity cost)
3 and 4 can be broken down further on gameplay differences, but this is an esthetics discussion.
Does anybody see a different fifth option?
I'd add a caveat to (2), (3) and (4): Skimpy armor should be equally skimpy on both genders, and full-coverage armor should be equally full-coverage on both genders. Armor should not be skimpy on females/full-coverage on males or vice versa.
Good point. I've edited the post to reflect that.
Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Right now it looks like we have a few different summaries of opinions. In no particular order:
- 1. People who believe that skimpy outfits should not be available
- 2. People who believe that skimpy versions should be required
- 3. People who believe that both options should be available with essentially no mechanical differences (including the cases where the same stats could have either style and where glamered equipment is available and cheap)
- 4. People who believe that skimpy armor should be available, but with significant mechanical differences (including the cases were glamered equipment is not available or has a significant cost or opportunity cost)
3 and 4 can be broken down further on gameplay differences, but this is an esthetics discussion.
Does anybody see a different fifth option?
I'd add a caveat to (2), (3) and (4): Skimpy armor should be equally skimpy on both genders, and full-coverage armor should be equally full-coverage on both genders. Armor should not be skimpy on females/full-coverage on males or vice versa.
I found this today and just have to post it, since it very much concerns the current issue: YouTube video. I think I could live very well with the result - especially since the result is that male adventurers ...stop.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wouldn't it be great, if no one ever got offended
Wouldn't it be great to say what's really on your mind
I have always said 'all the rules are made for bending'
And if I let my hair down, would that be such a crime?I wanna be consequence free
I wanna be where nothing needs to matter
I wanna be consequence free
just sing Na Na Na Na Na Ne Na Na Na!
Aha I see your character will be a vaudevillian bard.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You just nailed every male who plays a female character. Good job and I completely agree. If you play a female character, you are pretending to be a woman and using the female body as a toy for your sexual fetish. Spot on post! Bravo!I think women should dress as they see fit.
I'm not as comfortable having men pretending to be women and playing dress-up with the representation of a female body as a toy and using it as a sexual fetish in public.
I would think that women by now would be a little weary of males who think real women are sex toys, but since I am male who am I to say?
Wow. I really hope that's sarcasm, because otherwise, you and me, we've got a problem.
It is very clearly a preference being manifested here, otherwise all points would be equally addressed. There is some agenda against skimpy armors for women here, quite clearly.
Then again, maybe you're just insane. Or a troll, in which case, I'm feeding you, crud.
(Is there a way to put someone on ignore here?)
I also hope PFO doesn't go with the revealing armor, that so many MMOs have. It's an important one among the many reasons why I never play any of these games for longer than two or three sessions.
I played a game just a few weeks ago, in which there are four classes, each single-gendered. And the female melee type was basically wearing lingerie with high-high-heels for combat. Never dropped a game that quickly.
Additionally introducing chainmail bikinis in the Online game would be a complete violation of the established artstyle of pathfinder, and beyond being aesthetically displeasing to anyone with a sense for consistency would also completely alienate any players who like the artstyle in (and on) the books.
I also think one thing so many developers neglect... it is possible to have sexy looking female armor... that still looks like it would serve as protective armor. The armor can be shapely, fit the womans curves etc... while still covering 90% of the woman's body. The concept of sexy is only obtainable by being as close to naked as possible, just isn't true, either in common world, or in fantasy armor.
For a fine example look at Skyrim Orcish armor on female characters.
Seelah also pulls it off quite well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think women should dress as they see fit.
I'm not as comfortable having men pretending to be women and playing dress-up with the representation of a female body as a toy and using it as a sexual fetish in public.
I would think that women by now would be a little weary of males who think real women are sex toys, but since I am male who am I to say?
You just nailed every male who plays a female character. Good job and I completely agree. If you play a female character, you are pretending to be a woman and using the female body as a toy for your sexual fetish. Spot on post! Bravo!
I really hope, that someone here is making a joke. I hope it's both of you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just the same by going I want realistic armor you are limiting the options of people who want skimpy outfits.
About 15 people have said something like this but it's just not true. There are limitless other options for skimpy outfits, they just won't be armor, because other than glamered armor they're not armor. Don't confuse lack of others forced to wear adolescent eye candy with infringement on your character's freedom.
I want every person to log in the game to be able to play in the way they want to without someone else telling them no you can't be X, because someone else doesn't like it.
Great so you don't want to tell me I have to deal with characters wearing metal lingerie just to be able to fight something because some other people want to look sexy all the time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Great so you don't want to tell me I have to deal with characters wearing metal lingerie just to be able to fight something because some other people want to look sexy all the time.
You can always refuse to party with trampy bikini wearing types. After all the only way you could be forced to fight AGAINST bikini wearing barbarians is if they were bandits that ambushed you. Otherwise you can just decline combat.
Of course the alternative is to declare a vendetta on chainmail bikinis and attack characters wearing them on first sight :D
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I'm going to have to reference Wayne on this:
Kyra has full-coverage, and only a moderate exaggeration of secondary sex characteristics.
Ditto for Lini.
Seoni combines impractical non-armor with moderate to severe frank sexualization.
Valeros seems sensibly attired, only sharing the universal characteristic of having an absurd number of items ready to hand.
Seelah is again excessively endowed, but at least is fully covered.
Merisiel is the first iconic to have a boob window, which marks her armor as fashionable in preference to practical. She is also the first female I found wearing light armor.
Seltyiel is proficient in light armor, but he wears a leather vest with an open front in conjunction with slightly oversize leather pauldrons.
Amiri continues the trend of open-chested light armor with leather covering her arms, legs, and breasts while leaving portions of her ribcage and entire abdomen exposed.
If we use the art style of pathfinder as a guide, we end up with some rather skimpy outfits, and virtually no realistic female armor. Literal chainmail bikinis are outside of the prior art, but so is a strict adherence to 'armor covers the areas it protects'.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just the same by going I want realistic armor you are limiting the options of people who want skimpy outfits.About 15 people have said something like this but it's just not true. There are limitless other options for skimpy outfits, they just won't be armor, because other than glamered armor they're not armor. Don't confuse lack of others forced to wear adolescent eye candy with infringement on your character's freedom.
I want every person to log in the game to be able to play in the way they want to without someone else telling them no you can't be X, because someone else doesn't like it.Great so you don't want to tell me I have to deal with characters wearing metal lingerie just to be able to fight something because some other people want to look sexy all the time.
Who said anything about sexy?
I want fat ugly diseased people to have the option to run around mostly naked as well.I find it personally objectionable that you think I'm doing this so I can look at seminaked elves on my computer screen. If I wanted to do that there are plenty of places I can get that without paying money.
I feel that everyone has the right to wear what ever they want.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm going to have to reference Wayne on this:
Kyra has full-coverage, and only a moderate exaggeration of secondary sex characteristics.
Ditto for Lini.
If by "moderate exaggeration of secondary sex characteristics" you mean "having them at all", then I agree. But you don't, so I don't agree, neither do my female friends who are now questioning your intelligence and life experience (sorry, but it's true).
Seoni combines impractical non-armor with moderate to severe frank sexualization.
Valeros seems sensibly attired, only sharing the universal characteristic of having an absurd number of items ready to hand.
I agree with you on these ones. Seoni's outfit is ridiculous, but then she has magic to protect her and keep her warm, so she doesn't need to dress practical. Also as a sorcerer she relies on a high charisma. Charisma might not be based on attractiveness, but it certainly can help.
Valeros is the man.Seelah is again excessively endowed, but at least is fully covered.
Again, me and my friends, both male and female, disagree about the endowment and are really starting to wonder about you.
Merisiel is the first iconic to have a boob window, which marks her armor as fashionable in preference to practical. She is also the first female I found wearing light armor.
Yep.
Seltyiel is proficient in light armor, but he wears a leather vest with an open front in conjunction with slightly oversize leather pauldrons.
Indeed.
Amiri continues the trend of open-chested light armor with leather covering her arms, legs, and breasts while leaving portions of her ribcage and entire abdomen exposed.
Your observations are correct, but I give this one a pass. First of all, she's a barbarian, so she's allowed to dress a bit barbarically. Furthermore, as a barbarian, she has temporary HP up the yin yang and is meant to wade into battle and absorb damage, not avoid it. Also, it looks cool.
If we use the art style of pathfinder as a guide, we end up with some rather skimpy outfits, and virtually no realistic female armor.
Um, did you forget the things you just linked? Seelah and Kyra and Lini and Merisiel all wear functional armor. Merisiel is an exception though only for that "boob window" leaving her heart exposed, but it also fits in with what she does.
Literal chainmail bikinis are outside of the prior art, but so is a strict adherence to 'armor covers the areas it protects'.
Indeed.
I noticed though that you forgot some people, like this guy and his guy and this guy and this guy, to cover the core classes.
I'd say that over all, each character dresses in a manner perfectly suitable for what they do, with a bit of flare thrown in for good measure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wouldn't say any of those outfits are skimpy, and they all fall within what I would consider a tolerable level of practical in the context of class, is say it's reasonably equal in terms of skin shown gender wise, I don't think there's anything wrong with a female breastplate having breasts, while not shown on pf art, there are plenty of men's breastplates with nipples if they're being ornate.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Valeros isn't well armored he's supposed to be in plate mail.
In reality he's wearing a breastplate, leather arm guards, a padded skirt and cloth pants + boots.
Merisiel is wearing Studded leather with exposed knees, under arms and breasts...
Amiri appears to be wearing plate, or possibly hide, but given the metal spikes and rivets I'd go with plate armor. Thats completely impractical except in a fantasy setting given her entire torso is unprotected.
Lini's hide is not practical given one arm, her thighs and her neck to collarbone are exposed. Its also moderately sexy with the curves drawing your eyes to her nipples.
Seltyiel is impractical leather and he's got a nice nude demon hilted scimitar. (Note to self get that blade)
There is also the drow priestess in plate with the boob window.
Pathfinder art contains a lot of impractical fantasy outfits many of which I wouldn't mind seeing in game.
The Slyph is shown wearing tattoos, a butterfly pendent, some clouds and a smile which apparently counts as leather armor:)
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is also the drow priestess in plate with the boob window.
I have not seen the Drow in question but that sounds in character for Drow.
Drow are a matriarchal society ruled by high level female clerics (House Matrriachs were invariably a Priestess of Loth) who, up until pathfinder, tended to wear full-plate (allowed for clerics in 3.5) but also tended to glamor it to look more evil and more seductive.
Bear in mind, Loth Priestesses including House Matriachs were renowned for exploiting male slaves/prisoners for their physical pleasure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You and DeciusBrutus arguing about people wearing clothes]...
I agree with your points, just have to add two things:
-Amiri is wearing hide armor, one of the worst medium armors in the game, so she actually loses quite a lot of AC compared to a breastplate. Also it looks cool.-The beefcake/cheesecake ratio among the iconics is actually rather fair Setyiel and Mersiel cover leather armor, and Seoni and Sajan both do not require armor and all – and do indeed suffer if the wear it.
Also I had to add a picture of our iconic characters naked
Naked people - by Paizo.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Valeros isn't well armored he's supposed to be in plate mail.
In reality he's wearing a breastplate, leather arm guards, a padded skirt and cloth pants + boots.Merisiel is wearing Studded leather with exposed knees, under arms and breasts...
Amiri appears to be wearing plate, or possibly hide, but given the metal spikes and rivets I'd go with plate armor. Thats completely impractical except in a fantasy setting given her entire torso is unprotected.
Lini's hide is not practical given one arm, her thighs and her neck to collarbone are exposed. Its also moderately sexy with the curves drawing your eyes to her nipples.
Seltyiel is impractical leather and he's got a nice nude demon hilted scimitar. (Note to self get that blade)
There is also the drow priestess in plate with the boob window.
Pathfinder art contains a lot of impractical fantasy outfits many of which I wouldn't mind seeing in game.
The Slyph is shown wearing tattoos, a butterfly pendent, some clouds and a smile which apparently counts as leather armor:)
I agree with your points, just have to add two things:
-Amiri is wearing hide armor, one of the worst medium armors in the game, so she actually loses quite a lot of AC compared to a breastplate. Also it looks cool.-The beefcake/cheesecake ratio among the iconics is actually rather fair Setyiel and Mersiel cover leather armor, and Seoni and Sajan both do not require armor and all – and do indeed suffer if the wear it.
Also I had to add a picture of our iconic characters naked
http://paizo.com/image/content/LegacyOfFire/PZO9021-TakingItEasy.jpg
Slight anal retentive correction:
According to the NPC Codex (page 285) and indeed any other source if could find Valeros does indeed wear a breastplate. This is a fitting armor for him, since he requires quite a high dexterity for his two weapon fighting.
Merisiel is indeed wearing studded leather, but for a +3 armor bonus she is pretty well covered, considering that a chain shirt (that usually only covers the upper body) gives a +4 bonus. And at least at level 12 she actually uses the higher max dex the armor allows.
Lini is wearing leather armor (that later gets enchanted with the wild enhancement), but frankly she can cast while in wild shaped in the form of an animal (so until she gains the wild armor enhancement, the armor bonus is quite irrelevant)
The (mechanical) reason that Selthyel wears leather armor, was based on the fact, that he was a fighter/wizard/eldritch knight, and used a feat so he could use the armor without penalty. Now today he is also the iconic for the magus class and could (and better should) wear a chain shirt at low levels. The blade is actually one my problems with the pic, since it was always stated as a longsword.
So yeah, I hope that he will see armor like this in the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really hope, that someone here is making a joke. I hope it's both of you.
I think women should dress as they see fit.
I'm not as comfortable having men pretending to be women and playing dress-up with the representation of a female body as a toy and using it as a sexual fetish in public.
I would think that women by now would be a little weary of males who think real women are sex toys, but since I am male who am I to say?
You just nailed every male who plays a female character. Good job and I completely agree. If you play a female character, you are pretending to be a woman and using the female body as a toy for your sexual fetish. Spot on post! Bravo!
There really isn't much to address in your hope statement, Sebastian.
Would you share a little of why you hope it is a joke to wish that human beings would consider others as people with rights and dignity, rather than toys to be used as inanimate sex fetishes, tools to be used or abused?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Amiri continues the trend of open-chested light armor with leather covering her arms, legs, and breasts while leaving portions of her ribcage and entire abdomen exposed.
If you examine the picture, Amiri has a number of claw mark scars on her exposed midriff.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I really hope, that someone here is making a joke. I hope it's both of you.
I think women should dress as they see fit.
I'm not as comfortable having men pretending to be women and playing dress-up with the representation of a female body as a toy and using it as a sexual fetish in public.
I would think that women by now would be a little weary of males who think real women are sex toys, but since I am male who am I to say?
You just nailed every male who plays a female character. Good job and I completely agree. If you play a female character, you are pretending to be a woman and using the female body as a toy for your sexual fetish. Spot on post! Bravo!
There really isn't much to address in your hope statement, Sebastian.
Would you share a little of why you hope it is a joke to wish that human beings would consider others as people with rights and dignity, rather than toys to be used as inanimate sex fetishes, tools to be used or abused?
I really have problem with the implication of a sexual fetish to be honest. I have played female characters both online and offline in the Pathfinder RPG among other systems. While playing as a female character is usually an option for most players (I can't name you a MMORGP or a pen an paper RPG that forces players to play their gender) is is not an option for the Game Master, who runs the adventure.
When it comes to pathfinder, that person is usually me. So, when I run an adventure path, where the players have to interact with a various female characters.... does that really constitute a fetish?
I think that this isn't the case. And while I can mention the source – it's an NPC in a paizo adventure path – when the players want to interview the head cleric of a deity, that just happens to dress like a SM mistress, that is exactly what I do.
And I would do it in public.
That might be weird, but I am old enough, not to apologize for something most people might not understand – yes RPGs are quite weird to the general public.
To get this back on track, I played WoW for a pretty long time, and two of my most beloved characters happened to be female bloodelves (I have to mention that fact, female undead without a jaw are quite something else). Now while this was a RP server, it was quite scares and usually boring, but of course you hear stories.
I can't tell you if there were characters offering to have virtual sex with other characters, for some kind of compensation. I have never heard of something like this happening, and even if I did, I bluntly don't care (but I would make jokes about the players involved).
If someone wants to use a character as his personal fetish, an MMORPG really isn't the best place for it (maybe second live) and bluntly most people are usually only a quick internet search away, from finding something to fit their personal set of fetishes.
It may not be totally relevant to the discussion, but I actually had a long distance relationship with a female player, and we met through WoW. She usually played her big strong male orc, and I played one of my elves and while we talked for hours on the phone or on teamspeak, using our characters as proxis would never have come to our minds.
I realize, that there could be some scenarios, where players could abuse their virtual characters in order to insult the dignity of others (not just limited to women, this includes religions, ethnicity and political views) but that is distasteful and most likely against the spirit and rules of this game. I expect the moderators to stop abuse like this.
To reiterate my point: Playing a female character is not about stroking a fetish, and while it can be influenced by your views about women, there is really no direct connection. It is frankly not all that different, than a little girl playing with her dolls, or is my little cousin (I happen to be her godfather since she is about 20 years younger than me) using her male dolls....wrong?
Real people regardless of gender, race, religion or other factors should be treated with the respect they deserve.
So a female player has the same right to play a Conan look alike, wearing nothing more like a loincloth, a sword and enough body oil, so all his muscles are properly displayed.
Incidentally I spend longer than I care to admit to change my characters hair styles, colors and changing the appearance of my characters equipment to suit my tastes (mostly since armor sets look worse every year), if that is wrong, I don't want to be right.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not as comfortable having men pretending to be women and playing dress-up with the representation of a female body as a toy and using it as a sexual fetish in public.
The female characters I have played are female because that is what made the most sense when I wrote their background story.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@Being and @Trikk, Sebastian and myself are all for treating women with respect right and dignity. That's not the problem here.
The problem we have is that you are saying that every male who has played a female character is a misogynist sexual deviant. This is directly insulting to us and anyone else who has ever played a female character.
Like Sebastian, I have DM'd many a game, which constantly involves playing the roles of various female characters. I've also played female characters as a PC, both in table top and in video games. As I have explained before, I just have an easier time creating a female character because all my male characters end up the same. I have never treated them as my own personal sex toys.
I will grant that there are plenty of guys out there that do just as you say and only use female character to fulfill their sexual fantasies.
Just don't lump us in with them. Or we will continue to take offense.
I would also like to point out that this isn't a male-only thing. There are plenty of women out there that play as men as well. Some for good reasons, some for bad reasons.
~~~
Now, I propose that this thread come to a close. The topic has been covered pretty thoroughly and the discussion is largely degrading into a battle of sexism and stereotypes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Because essentially your saying my opinion and view of the game is the only legitimate one.
Don't be ridiculous. This has nothing to do with 'opinions' and 'views'. You know, the same way that my 'opinion' that gravity exists isn't forcing gravity on you.
I don't care about realism. I care about internal consistency of the game world. If you cared to look at how armour and magic works in D&D and, more importantly, in Pathfinder, you'd notice that there is protective magic. And there is armour.
But if you are wearing a thong, you are not wearing full plate. It's really as simple as that. You can wear bracers of armour. You can use Mage Armor spells. There are other ways to obtain armour bonuses than wearing armour, though most of those options are expensive and/or subpar. But, most importantly, you don't get that +8 AC from wearing full plate if the plate isn't full.
That's really not rocket science.
You can have platemail thongs in a setting where that make sense. Pathfinder isn't that setting though, and I sincerely hope that PFO isn't getting that wrong.
Besides, it's a complete non-issue since there are enchantments like glamer, mentioned earlier, that allows you to wear actual full plate and magic it to look however you want.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Would you share a little of why you hope it is a joke to wish that human beings would consider others as people with rights and dignity, rather than toys to be used as inanimate sex fetishes, tools to be used or abused?
Just because you play female characters for those reasons, doesn't mean the rest of us put any kind of sexual motivation towards playing a character of any gender.
(Are you seriously suggesting that a gay man playing a male character is instinctively considering other men as 'toys to be used as inanimate sex fetishes, tools to be used or abused'?)
This is where I suggest that you should probably talk to someone in real life about those urges. Meanwhile, the rest of us play characters of a variety of genders for a variety of reasons that are, quite frankly, none of your business. But really, they could be anything from "I don't like the male character design in this game" to "her butt looks amazing".
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really have problem with the implication of a sexual fetish to be honest. I have played female characters both online and offline in the Pathfinder RPG among other systems. While playing as a female character is usually an option for most players (I can't name you a MMORGP or a pen an paper RPG that forces players to play their gender) is is not an option for the Game Master, who runs the adventure.
...
Sebastian, the issue is not with roleplaying a woman. The problem is with representing women as sex toys.
Women should dress as they see fit, and men should dress as they see fit. But no one should dress in a manner that disrespects either gender.
Thus it is no joke. If you have a problem with my respect for women then that is wholly on you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...
The problem we have is that you are saying that every male who has played a female character is a misogynist sexual deviant....
Absolutely false. Never did I say such a thing, nor did I suggest such a thing.
The operative word you misinterpreted is 'AND'. Notice it is not 'or'.
If you dress up as a woman AND use it as a sex toy (outside the privacy of your own home) it is a problem.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not as comfortable having men pretending to be women and playing dress-up with the representation of a female body as a toy and using it as a sexual fetish in public.The female characters I have played are female because that is what made the most sense when I wrote their background story.
Roleplaying a woman isn't a problem, I would only hope you did so well.
My point was misread. There is a conjunction AND which means both of the operative phrases. AND is different from OR in that the OR conjunction can mean only one of the operative phrases (but might mean both, it just doesn't have to). Notice I used the AND, so its if you roleplay a woman and are disrespectful of her you are being diisrespectful of women, reinforcing cultural problems/objectification/prejudices we as a culture could really do without.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Enough of basic English grammar. Yes you can say I am patriarchal and protective, and it would be a very sound observation. Women can take care of themselves. But I do worry myself over our culture as it is in part mine. Injustices have been perpetrated on many and I very much would like it if we might have a Just society which is more than superficially respectful of our fellow men and women. And other.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is where I suggest that you should probably talk to someone in real life about those urges. Meanwhile, the rest of us play characters of a variety of genders for a variety of reasons that are, quite frankly, none of your business. But really, they could be anything from "I don't like the male character design in this game" to "her butt looks amazing".
I agree and can point myself as an example of player who played several female chars in Lineage 2 just because I really don´t like the way elven and human males look in the game. On the other hand, elven and human females were very nice anda I just decided to play females everytime I started a new char of both races in the game.
I have a friend though that played a dark elf female just because she was very sexy and he likes the way DE look in lineage 2 (almost naked actually, depending on the suit they are wearing). What the problem with that? His wife sometimse was at his side watching while he was playing and she was just amused with his "fetish" for his female char. I see no problem with that either, he is an adult and is far from being a pervet or something like that. And he is also a gentleman, a funny guy that make jokes all the time and is loved by all people from my former clan.
Just keep an open mind people, sometimes evil is just in the eye of the beholder...
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Being: I think, the problem in this case isn't really based on opinion, rather than communication.
It's pretty clear to me, that nobody in this threat thinks that women, or men should be treated as sex toys. When it comes to role playing woman, there are certain things that are in pretty bad taste in my opinion, among others (menstruation, personal hygiene..) playing them like some brain dead bimbo is certainly one of the more troublesome.
Of course you can play a confident, intelligent woman with a sex life ( like everybody has one) but it is very important to maintain internal consistency with the character. And it is important to remember that you are playing a character, they may be saints, they may be scrum but it is always important to stay true to that concept.
So yeah, there is always the chance, that somebody might create a female avatar to make it suffer as an effigy of real people. While I think, that is in rather bad taste, unless they cross a certain boundary (to be determined by GW) it should be available.
I am German, for various historical reasons I have a huge disgust when it comes to things like Nazis or Holocaust denials, and certain things are actually forbidden by law (like the use of the swastika in certain circumstances) but we still value free speech very highly. In some chases that means allowing them to do demonstrations (at quite a high cost because of all the required police).
So if I were to see a character in Pathfinder Online, that seems to represent those ideals, I will report him.
When I quote your post, I included what Trick wrote, unfortunately you did not distance yourself from his post, so others might have assumed that you shared his opinion (that playing as a female character is the same as dressing up in real life and walking the street, which is something quite different – not that there is something wrong with that, it might not be my cup of tea, but I digress).
I highlighted the statement, I hoped to be a joke (since felt it to be quite insulting at me and others)
I really hope, that someone here is making a joke. I hope it's both of you.
I think women should dress as they see fit.
I'm not as comfortable having men pretending to be women and playing dress-up with the representation of a female body as a toy and using it as a sexual fetish in public.
I would think that women by now would be a little weary of males who think real women are sex toys, but since I am male who am I to say?
You just nailed every male who plays a female character. Good job and I completely agree. If you play a female character, you are pretending to be a woman and using the female body as a toy for your sexual fetish. Spot on post! Bravo!
This was my last post regarding this issue, I just wanted to clear any confusion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Being: I think, the problem in this case isn't really based on opinion, rather than communication.
That is plain. Thank you.
It's pretty clear to me, that nobody in this threat thinks that women, or men should be treated as sex toys.
That was my point: I think or hope we can agree. So... where did I go wrong? I assumed everyone writing here was a native English speaker. Unfortunately even some of those who are don't know some very elementary parts of English grammer, namely the use of conjunctions.
When it comes to role playing woman, there are certain things that are in pretty bad taste in my opinion, among others (menstruation, personal hygiene..) playing them like some brain dead bimbo is certainly one of the more troublesome.
Of course you can play a confident, intelligent woman with a sex life ( like everybody has one) but it is very important to maintain internal consistency with the character. And it is important to remember that you are playing a character, they may be saints, they may be scrum but it is always important to stay true to that concept.So yeah, there is always the chance, that somebody might create a female avatar to make it suffer as an effigy of real people. While I think, that is in rather bad taste, unless they cross a certain boundary (to be determined by GW) it should be available.
Perhaps it should be considered something like a hate crime if it gets extreme. But roleplaying a woman well can even be artistic. Rare, but it could happen.
I am German, for various historical reasons I have a huge disgust when it comes to things like Nazis or Holocaust denials, and certain things are actually forbidden by law (like the use of the swastika in certain circumstances) but we still value free speech very highly. In some chases that means allowing them to do demonstrations (at quite a high cost because of all the required police).
That is one place I erred. I should have said what I had to say in a way that might not be so easily misinterpreted, especially on the internet where what I write may be read by a non-native speaker of English. I too uphold the idea of liberty in speaking, but I do not hold with abuse. Too many women are abused by males who do not recognize them as equal human beings deserving of their dignity and self-worth. Too many women are beaten and I will not be silent when I have opportunity to speak out.
Trikk and I are not in cahoots, though Trikk seems to agree with one of the things I said. I know Trikk and I have disagreed other places, just like I've disagreed with all the rest of you at one point or another. I think. If not I'll try harder so you won't think I am discriminating.
Like I said I don't have a problem with males roleplaying as if they were a woman, especially if well played. But objectification of women does represent a serious problem in my country. I have known and have protected women fleeing abusive relationships, which lends particular weight to the issue for me.
It is no joke. Another sad thing is when people don't know how to read but assume their understanding is complete and get angry with me for their disability.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Being: Don't worry overly much about language skills, I trained as a professional translator (back in school, we used to translate the meetings of the UN concerning the Iraq war pretty much live) but that happened quite some years ago.
No the point really, it's a rather sad fact, that even the best training can't protect you from, not paying enough attention when you read. It happens to me sometimes, and I was quite shocked and enraged by the Trikks comment on your post.
That was the part about my ability to read basic English, but linking you post to violence against women... would not have happened on my part.
I assume this is a cultural problem, now bashing on America is always easy – but that is actually not what I am talking about. Of course treating people the way you described, is vile and should be punished to the full extend of the law.
No, I am talking about the various cultures of gamers. It might be nice to be able to say, that we are all one big happy family, but that isn't the case.
For most pen and paper Pathfinder players, I would vouch that behavior like this isn't an issue. I know of no GM, who would allow things like this to happen at their table, and I would actually bet, that Paizo has absolutely not tolerance for this kind of behavior.
Once you no longer have direct contact with the other players, things tend to get a little bit complicated. While the anonymity of the internet is worth protecting, if can encourage people to say and do things they would never even consider in real life. That is one of the disadvantages of this wonderful medium, the lack of a correcting response.
I have no idea how bad things could get in MMORPGs, but I have known women that were not comfortable to talk in voicechat, partly because they were shy, but a lot of male players react quite badly to female gamers. In some chases this might result in some strange kind of affection, but that usually doesn't last very long. Once a player gets the notion, that a female player has received some kind of advantage, when it comes to loot or other benefits... well I don't have to draw you a picture.
I have seen guilds die because of this, and usually the women were completely innocent (of course there are exceptions, but being a shameless bastard is not a purely male trait).
I can't give you a number, but I have met quite a number of women that were exceptional at the game. Planning and running a raid, is a tough job (done it way to often) and they did it just as well as every other good leader. So yeah they were just as good or bad as male players, but honestly telling people, that you are female is still a choice with consequences.
Now the tabletop and MMORPG players I can kinda relate to, but there is another set of gamer. You might have heard all the terrible stories about other online games (quite often) shooters. You might have seen, youtube videos about female gamers, and the terrible community in these games. As a female, using your micro in some of those games, is a rather save way to get verbally assaulted (well that's a bit strong, it's pretty much pure BS). If you happen to be really good at the game, it is even worse.
None of the examples above compare to actual physical violence, but we are are on a forum about an MMORPG. I think we are off to a pretty good start, I read posts about people wanting to play this game with their spouses and children. I doubt, GW has any sympathy for negative behavior, but even if this weren't the case, I have faith in this community.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sebastian you must have accidentaly picked up some diplomacy in your time translating for the UN meetings regarding the Iraq war.
The cultures of nations now communicating across this medium of the internet have a fairly new opportunity that I don't think really existed ever before. It is here with us so many of us probably take it for granted more than we should. I wish we might learn from one another, and gain a real respect rather than just the normal 'expected' respect just by trying to communicate better, checking whether the things we think are being said are actually what is meant, and maybe trying to presume the best of people rather than the worst.
Yet that is an ideal I could hope for. The fact is we cannot trust, perhaps should not trust, not without long experience.
Still it is worth the trying: I am for it if you are.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...You just nailed every male who plays a female character.
No Trikk. It is incorrect for anyone to assert all males who have tried to roleplay a female player character are anything other than male and maybe human.
Universals about a group of human beings are seldom if ever true. Every group is comprised of individuals, each unique, different from the rest.
Not all males who RP women in games abuse it. Those who do I have a problem with. Those who do not are only roleplaying.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not all males who RP women in games abuse it. Those who do I have a problem with. Those who do not are only roleplaying.
Anything else would get silly quickly. You would end up with a restriction that people play their real life species (presumably human for most players) gender and age.
The idea of 75 year old barbarians and 12 year old paladins in game is a bit disturbing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is incorrect for anyone to assert all males who have tried to roleplay a female player character are anything other than male and maybe human.Maybe.
I have a good, but slightly whacky, friend who is genuinely convinced that the myths of Elves are based on a real historical race that died out and that she is partly descended from them.
On another note I really so not mind what people look like unless they start playing glittery emo vampires.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another sad thing is when people don't know how to read but assume their understanding is complete and get angry with me for their disability.
I like how you took your chance to get back in here and say something to the effect of "okay, I really didn't mean to suggest that everyone who play a character of a different gender is some kind of sexual deviant. Sorry for the misunderstanding.", and instead accuse everyone of having a disability. Well played, sir. Those kinds of back handed insults was really what this thread needed.
Here's a few handy tips if you intend to spend any more time on this here Internet:
1) Not everyone is a native English speaker. In fact, I'd go as far as to suggest that most aren't.
2) Just because you're a non-native English speaker doesn't mean you're bad at English. Being a native English speaker doesn't mean you're good at English.
3) Using "oh must be because you're foreign" as an excuse whenever there's a misunderstanding, when it's much more likely that the fault just lies with you failing to communicate your intent, is pretty insulting.
Hope that helps.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Being
Glad to know that was a missunderstanding. I'm sorry myself for the missreading and missinterpretation of your words.
And no, I was not upset or angry at you when I commented your words. Sometimes words in a paper or in a forum thread do not express correctly the feeling of someone. I'm konwn to be very Emphatic in my words, sometimes people just think I'm mad at them but I was just being a bit more emphatic than most people are used to.