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I'll try to answer all of the questions:
His plan, once he's oracle 3, is to spam Oracle's Burden. The curse will affect all of the paladins and clerics touched, making their AC terrible.
As for the paladin, Way of the Wicked has alternate class features for most of the classes, including monk, inquisitor, and antipaladin. The antipaladin can be NE as written, or you can take the LE archetype. This is because CE isn't allowed. He'd be NE.
I don't have his stats, but they all average about 14-20. The AP allows you to use a 32 point system instead of 25.
The feats are both from WotC 3.5 and 3pp books that were found where you can take a feat to gain more spells known 1 level less than what your current level is (ie. level 5 caster has 3rd level spells, and can gain an extra 2-0, 1-1st, or 1-2nd level known).
Samsaran's are said to be reincarnated from old selves and have some memory of their previous life. Think Avatar: The Last Air Bender. He could easily take levels of ninja as he might have been one in a previous life. One prophetic dream later, and bam. Good to go.
As James Jacobs and others have pointed out, armor is fine. It's not broken. So he can wear whatever he's got proficiencies with.
As was also stated, it's early in the game so I should give him a chance. If by 3rd level (he's really close already) he's still no good, we'll talk about it, and I'll see if he can't become better somehow. If we can't figure it out, I'll bring it up with the group and as a team we'll work on things. If his ideas aren't as sound as he figured they would be, I've got no problem with him "retraining" his stuff.
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Note that Oracle's Burden won't affect enemies ACs that much (only shields) for the same reason it doesn't affect the oracle himself. Though I do think that relying on something with a will save against a paladin or cleric is sketchy at best.
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Yeah, OP, I think he's SOL. It sounds like there is absolutely nothing he can do at this point, short of rebuilding the character.
Like, I'm going to have to also suggest he finds a light crossbow, some bolts and a quiver laying around, because "I hold my action to dick off while everyone else is doing the work" is not acceptable. Shit, use orisons. Guidance one of the other characters or something.
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So, you've determined that his armor isn't broken, so why would it affect enemy ACs? It should just give them a -2 to all attack/damage rolls, which could be replicated with a bunch of other spells.
1st level Oracle/Cleric spell, Doom, does the exact same thing except it also affects saves and skill checks.
Your player, to put it bluntly, dun goofed.
While Doom wouldn't work on those Paladins after 3rd level, it would sure give him something to do right NOW.
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I don't see it.
The paladin gets the curse...okay...his weapon is at -2 to hit and does less crit damage...big whoop?!? Armor is not affected by the wrecker curse so their AC won't be touched. Well shield AC if they use a shield...but that is hardly making their AC terrible.
It's even LESS effective against the clerics as they just cast spells and you die.
And that tactics has NOTHING to do with metal...so that choice is still baffling. Nature, lore or heavens would have been less useless until level 3.
Yeah I don't think this works like how he had it in his head. I would point out the flaw in his build and let him rebuild.
I'm not sure if Oracle's Burden is that good a plan...even with feats, he'd still be a bit limited if that's his only way of contributing to combat. I think you should talk to him about changing some of his features--particularly spells and possibly mystery.
And that tactics has NOTHING to do with metal...so that choice is still baffling. Nature, lore or heavens would have been less useless until level 3.
Rusting Grasp revelation at level 7, I'm almost sure of this. Before then I'm guessing Skill at Arms and Iron Consitution. Seems interesting enough but "Magic items made of metal are immune to this spell". Though NPCs aren't loaded to the brim with magical items like PCs are so it might work. I don't think it's the best plan but I see where he's going with it and the flavor fits.
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And that tactics has NOTHING to do with metal...so that choice is still baffling. Nature, lore or heavens would have been less useless until level 3.Rusting Grasp at level 7, I'm almost sure of this. Before then I'm guessing Skill at Arms and Iron Consitution. Seems interesting enough but "Magic items made of metal are immune to this spell". Though NPCs aren't loaded to the brim with magical items like PCs are so it might work. I don't think it's the best plan but I see where he's going with it and the flavor fits.
Rusting grasp is REALLY weak. By level 7, things...even NPCs WILL have magic. Even then, Armor only removes 1d6 AC and weapon provokes, with no out clause. And level 7 isn't exactly level 3 now is it (when he is suppose to get good).
Skill at arms for a curse that basically precludes weapons is kind of a waste. Yeah the heavy armor could be nice...but why are you even thinking about this ability on a race that is +2 wis +2 int -2 con with a class choice that can't use weapons effectively again?!? Honestly I would think you would want light armor for the extra mobility.
Yeah the fort save is kinda nice...you know what else is nice? Being able to actually DO SOMETHING.
Hey, I'm just looking ahead and seeing the most likely path that is going to be taken. It's not my game or character. I didn't say it was a great plan, just a flavorful one. I agree it should be changed, as it does seem very weak. In terms of mobility he might be getting Armor Mastery which would give mobility when wearing metal armor instead of skill at arms. I'm just guessing here -_-
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There are many ways to make a character:
Striker
Controller
Healer
or
useless git.
If this is more effective than the PC...he should retire, or be eaten.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/herd-animals/goat
Also Cr 1/3.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/orc.html#_orc
Have the PC's fight a squad of Orcs... Do or die....
(11 Orcs + plus 2 sergeants of 3rd level (warrior) and 1 leader of 3rd (warrior)
just 14 guys...CR5-6 encounter.
each PC should get 3 orcs.
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Yeah, now that I know how things work, I too think that he thought that his abilities would be a lot more effective than they really are. I think I'm going to have to burst his bubble, and show him the reality. It's shame. Hawktitan seems to have come to the same conclusion the player did. Flavor wise this is fine, but in actual game play this likely won't pan out to what he wanted.
As for orisons, when he actually sees an enemy, he spams some dust storm spell that he found. Only affects one target, but it gives them a 50/50 miss chance for 1 round. It's not that great if you've got blind-fight though.
I was looking into playing that curse... I was going to use it to open locks and break traps. A level of monk or unarmed strike can help out in melee.
You know, I've been looking at this (probably more than I should) and Metal+Wrecker is not so bad. Although they do have to go more melee and less casty. Hopefully what I write here will fit your player's playstyle well enough or I just wasted a crapton of time for nothing :).
First he will need to rebuild stats, putting alot of emphasis on strength, with cha secondary. This isn't meant to be a bad thing really. Dragon Disiples tend to build this way. Don't ignore charisma, just keep primary focus on strength.
The second thing is that he must get a weapon made out of that special metal OR focus on natural attacks. The spell list makes more sense with manufactored weapons but most of these spells can be used to buff your friends too so it's not a total waste.
If he gets the special manufactored weapon then Rusting Grasp actually makes sense to get. It's not amazing to use against people with armor, but it shores up a specific weakness of the weapon - fighting against metal creatures/constructs. Niche use maybe but it's probably worth it to cover such a glaring weakness and it could come in handy for utility from time to time.
Armor Mastery + Skill At arms makes any mithril armor work, so have fun with Mithril Full Plate. This is pretty beastly and can give the Oracle a really good AC especially if they have a decent dex (much like a fighter with armor training, except oracles get added mobility).
Speaking of mobility Dance of Blades is pretty good with a manufactored weapon. If Dance of Blades is chosen consider getting Step-Up and Following-Step for feats to make better use of this revelation.
Iron Constitution and Iron Skin are both good solid defensive revelations no matter what attack route one may go.
Lets talk about ways to get natural attacks instead of manufactored weapons. Half Orc for Toothy trait. Now we need to get claws. The way I would prefer is to use the feats Skill Focus + Eldritch Heritage (Draconic Bloodline). Consider house ruling permenant claws, as far as house rules go it's fairly common - see Dragon Disiciple threads. Another is a two level dip into Ranger for natural claw attacks (plus a favored enemy as a nice side bonous). There are probably other ways such as advanced races and feats. Obviously no Dance of Blades revelation when going this route but that's fine.
I can post a couple builds if you desire. Just let me know the stats or point buy and if you would do permentant draconic claws with eldritch hertitage.
@ Blueluck -- No, only one player actually feels similar. The others want to give him a shot to prove himself in this game. He was with us last campaign, and his character, while had personality issues, was an incredibly well built gunslinger/holy gun paladin of freedom.
Ah, good! Initially I got the impression that he was just a jerk. Hopefully he's got a build in mind that doesn't depend on using armor or weapons. But, I suspect he doesn't, given his choice of the Metal mystery.
My suggestion is this. Tell him ASAP that his character has proven to be somewhat difficult to deal with, and that you'd like him to have a backup plan prepared for level 5. If his character turns out to be fun by the time the party levels up to 5th, great! Keep playing Mr. Wrecker, Oracle of Metal. If, by the end of 4th level his character is still actively un-fun to have around, he'll have to switch.
There area a few reasons for this plan:
1) He sounds like a player who likes to put a lot of planning into a character, and it's very frustrating for a player like that to make last-minute changes. My plan gives him lots of time to plan and ponder.*
2) It gives him all of 4th level to use Oracle's Burden, which seems to be his signature move for this character. As a spontaneous caster with a high charisma, he can cast it 4/day - more than enough opportunity to demonstrate its effectiveness or ineffectiveness.
3) It gives you and the other players a deadline to look forward to. Whenever you feel frustrated, just tell yourself "It's only temporary".
Good luck!
The first time I was ever exposed to this method was for a superheroes game run with the HERO/Champions system. The GM was very experienced and had developed this three-proposal method as a way to build interesting super groups with low levels of internal conflict. Not only did it serve the obvious purpose of not having characters totally overlap in abilities, but it kept a number of superhero-specific problems from occurring. Later, I adopted this method for GMing certain other kinds of games where in-party conflict his prevalent. (mixed World of Darkness, home-brew LARP, one game at a convention, etc.)
More recently, I've done this with certain players rather than with all players in a given campaign. The players I ask for three proposals are the ones who have a particular combination of characteristics.
1) They tend to make troublesome characters.
2) Once they have a character in mind, they become very attached to it.
If someone has only #1, I simply see what they come up with and recommend changes so that the character fits with the group/campaign/system we're using.
If someone has only #2, there's no problem, so long as their character fits in. In fact, I tend to prefer when players are very attached.
If someone has both #1 & #2, then we have a situation. In that case, they make a character, I make recommendations, they push back, I push back, we come to an agreement. A few sessions later, it becomes evident they mentally ditched my recommendations (sometimes unconsciously) and they're playing the problem character full-strength.
It's hard to keep someone from doing this kind of subtle backsliding! If they originally thought of their character as "Kleptomaniac ninja who hates non-humans" and I told them "You can't steal from the party (You did that in Don's game, and it pissed everyone off), you know it's a campaign based on Tales of the Arabian Knights and I told everyone there were no Eastern classes, and you must be able to work with elves and dwarves because we have both as PCs." - well, it might not be long before their rogue is wearing black pajamas and asking for throwing stars, stealing from treasure chests and saying "a party member wasn't holding it yet", and giving the cold shoulder to the dwarf and elf.
(I changed some nouns, but otherwise that's a true story.)
So, I approach the player privately again. "Dude, I told you that won't work in this came." and he says, "But that's what my character would do. That's who he is." and I say, "THAT'S WHY I TOLD YOU NOT TO PLAY THAT Q#$%@#$%@#$%^!! CHARACTER!"
I've never had a case yet where a player with three proposals hasn't had at least one that fits my campaign and group. And, because all three were the player's idea, they also fit the player's style. It's not a perfect solution, but it's worked very well for me.
Maybe he's f~*&ing with you?
You said no a bunch of times so he got his pout face on and said "Fine, I'll make the most useless guy I possibly can! Muhahahaha! It's foolproof!"
Did you run what I said past him?
Allowing him access to the Jury-rig spell is good way to minimize the effects.
Held objects gain the broken condition when you use or equip them but regain their actual condition if employed by anyone else. If a held item is restored to unbroken condition, it becomes broken again the following round. Disable Device becomes a class skill for you and you can make Disable Device checks to destroy nonmagical traps as a move action without the need to use tools or take any action beyond simply touching it.
Jury Rig:
When you cast this spell, a spectral force binds a broken weapon together, relieving the broken condition for a short time. While under the effects of this spell, an item with the broken condition suffers no adverse effects from that condition, and is treated as if it is not broken. The object regains no hit points, and damage can still destroy the object.
Now there is something! The Jury-Rig spell does not restore to unbroken! Too bad it is 1 Round/Level, but at-least it is something...
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Allowing him access to the Jury-rig spell is good way to minimize the effects.Held objects gain the broken condition when you use or equip them but regain their actual condition if employed by anyone else. If a held item is restored to unbroken condition, it becomes broken again the following round. Disable Device becomes a class skill for you and you can make Disable Device checks to destroy nonmagical traps as a move action without the need to use tools or take any action beyond simply touching it.
Jury Rig:
When you cast this spell, a spectral force binds a broken weapon together, relieving the broken condition for a short time. While under the effects of this spell, an item with the broken condition suffers no adverse effects from that condition, and is treated as if it is not broken. The object regains no hit points, and damage can still destroy the object.Now there is something! The Jury-Rig spell does not restore to unbroken! Too bad it is 1 Round/Level, but at-least it is something...
You could probably make a custom item out of it. Be expensive, but likely worth it.
Well, that sounds like a job for magical duct tape. Well, that phrase was a bit redundant actually. It already is like magic.
Did you run what I said past him?Have no idea. He never replies to e-mails. I won't know until Sunday.
Umm, this really does sound passive-aggressive. Sorry.
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I have an Oracle with the Wrecker curse in the wings for a future campaign.
Demon-spawn Tiefling Oracle of Battle
Str: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 9
Wis: 10
Cha: 17
Prehensile Tail (more for flavour)
Claws! (This is key, as the Oracle will be fighting hand to hand and eventually cracking everything open)
Feats
1= Power Attack
3= Improved Sunder
Revelations:
Lots of good ones, but Maneuver Mastery will be up there.
Skill at Arms (for Heavy Armor)
Looks to be very, very fun.
I have an Oracle with the Wrecker curse in the wings for a future campaign.
Demon-spawn Tiefling Oracle of Battle
Claws! (This is key, as the Oracle will be fighting hand to hand and eventually cracking everything open)
Cool! That sounds like a fun character. It might be fun to add Dual Cursed to that with Haunted as your second curse. I see pieces of broken stuff flying all over the place . . .
Aid another, flanking...
If he is just going to sit there and watch the fights then he should not get any xp.
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So I got contact from the player. He says he knew that everything he touched was going to break, which is why he never wanted anything. As well, it's why he wanted all the spell feats so he could cast more often. As for weapons, he doesn't want one. If he HAS to have one, he'd like a inubrix quarterstaff so he can enchant both ends separately, as he sees fit. As for armor, he said he later gets an ability, clock of darkness, that stacks with his level. Right now he can use it for 2 hrs/day. If he was forced to have armor, he'd only want it made out of angelskin so that his evil aura would be reduced.
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So what is he gonna do about the fact that his little trick won't really be doing squat on a FAILED save (and since it targets to the good saves of clerics and paladin...that's not gonna be happening all that often). If he HAS to have armor or weapons?!? Either he makes a build that can work well without weapons and armor (and there are many ways to do this)...or he gets armor and weapons...or he can be left behind to die.
And yeah, as rynjin pointed out...not legal. Are you sure this guy actually knows what he is doing? I think it's seriously about time for a character sheet audit.
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I have an Oracle with the Wrecker curse in the wings for a future campaign.
Demon-spawn Tiefling Oracle of Battle
Str: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 9
Wis: 10
Cha: 17Prehensile Tail (more for flavour)
Claws! (This is key, as the Oracle will be fighting hand to hand and eventually cracking everything open)Feats
1= Power Attack
3= Improved SunderRevelations:
Lots of good ones, but Maneuver Mastery will be up there.
Skill at Arms (for Heavy Armor)Looks to be very, very fun.
You're going to have problems taking Power Attack without +1 BAB. You could grab the revelation that improves a manoeuvre at first level, however.
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So what is he gonna do about the fact that his little trick won't really be doing squat on a FAILED save (and since it targets to the good saves of clerics and paladin...that's not gonna be happening all that often). If he HAS to have armor or weapons?!? Either he makes a build that can work well without weapons and armor (and there are many ways to do this)...or he gets armor and weapons...or he can be left behind to die.
And yeah, as rynjin pointed out...not legal. Are you sure this guy actually knows what he is doing? I think it's seriously about time for a character sheet audit.
He's Dark Tapestry. He's got a feat that lets you take two mysteries, but one is at -4 your character level. It's something I showed him that's 3pp, and I guess he ended up taking it. He's dominant Dark Tapestry. He realized that the Metal one wasn't as good for him, so that one's going to be at -4 your level and it'll be a back up. Basically, if he has to use it, it means that the party's pretty much done for anyways. It'll be his Hail Mary. I'm fine with that. Otherwise, he's going all spellcaster and going to try be a divine sorcerer. It's just he doesn't want to waste spells unless he knows they can rest for 8 hours afterwards. I told the wizard player to coach him on spellcasting. It's his first time.
Sorry, I have to resurrect this thread because I just read the entire thing and I need closure on this anecdote. Did his character ever turn out to be useful at all? If so, was it even as effective as a basic human fighter would have been?
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Sorry, I have to resurrect this thread because I just read the entire thing and I need closure on this anecdote. Did his character ever turn out to be useful at all? If so, was it even as effective as a basic human fighter would have been?
He was kind of effective. I don't recall much as the campaign died and the group split not all that long later due to issues between the players, but from what I recall he was alright. But yeah, a basic human fighter might have been better. There was a lot of hoops that had to be jumped through in order to make it work out, as well as some multiclassing so he'd have an armor class.