I mean this in the nicest way possible: I have NO IDEA what you are talking about.
It looks like a guide of some sort.
- Clerics undo the failures of other PCs, and bolster up their shortcomings.
- No-one likes to be reminded of their shortcomings or failures.
- Ergo: no-one likes a Cleric.
I wouldn't add rules to make Clerics more potent though - D&D went that route with the 3rd edition, and it took 3.5 and then Pathfinder to get the "CoDzillas" back under control. Adding power to an already powerful class just attracts players who want that power, not the actual class.
Instead, make 'em more glamorous.
Clerics are priests. They're Holy men and women, touched and blessed by the Gods Themselves. Having the local yokels fawn over Cleric (N)PCs goes a long way to making the class more attractive. And temples are very useful as quest-givers, shops and local support points all in one.
Having recurring issues with no one wanting to be a cleric.
In my humble opinion, the reason noone wants to play a cleric is because they feel shoe-horned into a healer by the rest of the party.
Clerics are a very strong class, and should be as varied as any other class, because domains can easily alter the cleric's playstyle. But at most gaming tables I have observed, Clerics are expected to play a healer with healing and support-oriented domains. They are expected to save all their resources and actions for healing, and pay for the wands of cure light-wounds out of their own pocket.
Now, if you want to play your cleric as a dedicated healer, there is nothing wrong with that, and there are some fairly strong choices for you (even if it isn't my prefered style of play.) But pressuring others to play that way when they don't want to is the reason people avoid "healing" classes.
So, I think your point is: "Players, you can be an effective Cleric that is not someone's personal healing machine. Try it sometime."
I agree with that point entirely. However, I do disagree with some of your advice.
Attack rolls are a pain: -4 into melle stacking with -4 past allies for soft cover or the same for hard cover means precise shot and movement dramas or allowing yourself into charge lines.
Attack roll penalties like this are only if you are using a ranged weapon or a ray spell. If you want to play a ranged cleric, you should build for it, and the most important part of any ranged build is the Percise Shot feat. However, clerics are 3/4 BAB classes, and wear medium armor. This gives clerics pretty decent survivability, even at low levels, and we have multiple spells that improve our melee (and ranged) combat. In addition, alot of our buffs and healing spells are touch spells, so you frequently want to be near the front line anyway.
Most domains are pretty boring BUT you can get inquisitions instead!
I strongly disagree with this statement. Travel, Luck, Madness, War(Tactics), and Animal(Fur & Feather), are my favorite domains, but almost all of them are good. Not just for the bonus spells (although some of those are good enough to take the domain by themselves), but you can build almost any sort of cleric you want with the right domains. Please refer to the Class Guide Sticky entries about clerics for details reviews of domains, or read them yourself. They add good flavor and interesting abilities to clerics.
Its not like you need extra benefits vs undead or extra party support spells but you do need more ways to have fun, not be mucked with and ways to buff others that don't use your actions
I agree that one of the least fun parts of being a cleric is burning all your actions to make everyone else better. It is a strong and successful strategy, but there are times where you feel like you arn't doing much. My suggestion is to summon or play a cleric with an animal companion (Fur or Feather Sub-Domains are both good for this). That way, you use your cleric's actions for the strongest part of that class (buffing others), and then you use your animal companion or summon for the fun stuff (using your awesome buffs to rip enemies to shreds).
Also, the Reach-Weapon Cleric in the Class Guide Sticky is an interesting idea. You use your actions to buff, and then you use attacks of opportunities to destroy enemies. I have not played a Reach-Weapon Cleric yet, but I plan on it in the future.
In summary: Like the OP says, too frequently players are not intersted in playing a cleric, not because the class isn't strong, but because the players assume they will playing a boring healbot. If you have never played a cleric before, try it out, and try not healing in combat unless you absolutely have to. Use your actions to do things you want to do. The Cleric is loads of fun if you play the way YOU want to play.
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One thing I have done in my Homebrew game is slightly change Clerics because it never fails they become Heal-bots. So what I have done is to make Clerics still have to do their pray but they can pick and choose at will what spells they want or need to use instead of trying to memorize all heal spells to keep a party that seems to get beat up a lot.
The way I see it is The cleric is the tool of their deity. Their deity grants them the power to cast the spells and the cleric would use the tools he needs most to benefit in the name of their deity.
It works well in my game and the Cleric is much better and keeps the party much more in the action. And the other characters see the benefit in the clerics deity and are swinging in favor of him or at least paying some form of homage to him.
I see the OP's problem in my group as well, but I don't think their lack of popularity has anything to do with reminding other players of their shortcomings.
Pathfinder Clerics, when placed in comparison with nearly all other classes, are extremely dry in "crunch." They get domain powers, but they're sparse and lackluster compared to the other classes. Almost every part of the class says "you're the healer and that is ALL YOU ARE."
"Fluff-wise" it can be argued that Clerics are some of the most colorful and diverse of all the classes, but fluff is dependent on your GM to make relevant to the campaign.
I'm not saying Clerics are bad, they are clearly the most efficient healer/buffer class in the game, but it takes work by both the player and GM to make them fun outside those abilities alone.
heh.... if the cleric in my game was told to pay for Wands of CLW out of their own pocket there may be an open revolte.
I REALLY like the cleric in Pathfinder. It is one of the better balanced classes and can fit a couple of different rolls. Other players just need to understand the cleric is not your heal monkey.
That's always the big struggle though, fixing the actual players way of thinking, not the class.
Back in 1st ed we could never get a player to play a cleric. They were almost exclusively hired npc's that accompanied the party. Since 2nd ed I don't think we have ever had a party that didn't include a cleric. I think that may be the only class we can say that about.
They are generally expected to be the party healer, but that doesn't mean that takes up the entirety of their being. Our most memorable clerics were not remembered for their healing.
One cleric used calm emotions to take the fury out of a mob that surely would have tpk'd the heroes.
Another cleric (in an epic game) used his vorpal mace to bash in the head of the fiendish giant war general.
A third cleric used a dismissal spell (or something akin to it, I don't recall) to banish a very large elemental that the bbeg had summoned specifically to squash the party into the ground. We still talk about that some 25 years after the fact!
We love our clerics, and not just for their healing although we do love them for that, too. *grin*
Edit to say that the biggest change we made to clerics that got players interested in playing them was the ruling that "divine magic" did not require clerics to pick spells every day. They were free casters. It applied to druids, too, but nobody played druids in our games back then.
I always house rule classes with 2 skill points get 4. That to me is the only downside to fighters, clerics, paladins, and wizards to a lesser extent.
Truthfully though, I have a player who won't play anything other than a cleric. He has opened my eyes to a lot of different strategies, and he has a great time role playing such a rich class.
Having recurring issues with no one wanting to be a cleric.
Whoah, full stop right there.
If nobody wants to be the cleric, then, uh, move on and be happy because nobody has to play a cleric for a party to function. What's the problem here?
If you're insisting someone needs to be the healer, literally every character in the game is able to use a Wand of Cure Light Wounds if they can hit a 20 on a UMD check.
Eight non-cleric classes (Alchemist, Bard, Druid, Inquisitor, Oracle, Paladin, Ranger, and Witch) can do it without a skill check, and four more (Magus, Sorcerer, Summoner, and Wizard) can do so, too, if they're a Samsaran. Bards, Druids, Inquisitors, Oracles, and Witches can even cast healing spells at level 1, even without the wand.
I could even argue that healing isn't even necessary (it's honestly not needed as I've run more games of D&D without anyone capable of healing than I have with healers--and I also don't include wands or potions in my games), but there are so many non-cleric classes capable of healing that we don't even need to have that discussion.
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So what I have done is to make Clerics still have to do their pray but they can pick and choose at will what spells they want or need to use instead of trying to memorize all heal spells to keep a party that seems to get beat up a lot.
Why were your cleric players preparing any healing spells when they have access to Spontaneous Casting?
You've essentially turned clerics into spontaneous casters with access to an entire spell list as a "fix" for a nonexistent problem. Everyone at your table should be playing a cleric--unless you've also applied similarly powerful "fixes" to perceived problems with other classes as well.
Clerics are awesome. The issue is everyone plays them as if their sole purpose is to heal.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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My biggest grip about the cleric is the lack of skill points. With Int almost always being a dump stat, the 2+Int modifier for skill points just don't go far with the cleric.
Just find it kind of sad that my Cleric's Knowledge: Religion skill is kind of pathetic. Due to the lack of those skill points.
It's not the class's fault you dumped INT.
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We often end up with a group that includes a cleric, but the cleric is not a healer. I think I've heard the phrase "I'm not that kind of cleric" at least a hundred times. Our problem is less having a cleric, and more having someone who can actually heal effectively without needing to rest and completely change their entire spell selection.
I love clerics! They keep everyone else alive but they do not have to become healbots. It depends on what the player wants to do.
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Why were your cleric players preparing any healing spells when they have access to Spontaneous Casting?
Maybe they were running Neutral Channel Smite Clerics who went with negative energy?
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Maybe they were running Neutral Channel Smite Clerics who went with negative energy?
Why were your cleric players preparing any healing spells when they have access to Spontaneous Casting?
Perhaps, but in that case IceniQueen decided to modify an entire class to eliminate the downside to an option his players chose to apply to themselves. Now there's no reason to play anything but Channel Smite Clerics-just make sure all the other players play dhampir characters and you've got a winning combination; damage to living enemies, healing for your allies, unrestricted spontaneous casting from the entire cleric spell list and, with the right feat, undead minions as well.
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Perhaps, but in that case IceniQueen decided to modify an entire class to eliminate the downside to an option his players chose to apply to themselves. Now there's no reason to play anything but Channel Smite Clerics-just make sure all the other players play dhampir characters and you've got a winning combination; damage to living enemies, healing for your allies, unrestricted spontaneous casting from the entire cleric spell list and, with the right feat, undead minions as well.Maybe they were running Neutral Channel Smite Clerics who went with negative energy?
Why were your cleric players preparing any healing spells when they have access to Spontaneous Casting?
Oh, I agree it's a pretty terrible houserule that makes clerics way too powerful, I was just kind of throwing things out there.
I will say one common houserule I've seen in groups who felt like no one was playing a healer is allowing clerics to utilize both uses of Channel Energy in a single use. I don't think it's necessary to allow a cleric to use the heal/harm functions simultaneously, but some groups seem fine with it and it gives the cleric to shine even more brightly in encounters against undead ( or whatever depending on their channel choices and alignment).
That's why it's important for all your characters to get together and make sure you are all shoring up each others weaknesses.
I played in a group up to lvl 13 with a barbarian, two rogues, a sorcerer, and a ranger. We managed just fine, because we optimized our party, not just our characters.
It certainly helped that combat rarely ever lasted past 3 rounds, but that was kind of the whole point.
Murderous Command (from Ultimate Magic) is even better than Command in a number of ways: it's not language-dependent, and it discomfits two enemies instead of just one.