As for the title, the story has to start somewhere:
I recently joined a pathfinder game that was started up by a group of friends. I am the newcomer. I needed a character concept quickly, so i grabbed the Ratfolk Eldritch Archer I had been playing around with and got ready for a game. Then i was told No Ratfolk, so i went with a human Zen Archer instead.
Here's the catch. As the players began arriving and we got ready to start our first session, and the characters wererevealed as follows:
- A Scholar (some kind of 3pp skill monkey) with no use in combat
- An Assimar Cleric (i think?) who is building for mystic theurge. Wears no armor and his only weapon is a bow.
- A switch-hitter Ninja with emphasis on stealth. Has no STR bonus, even though it's 31 point buy.
- A ranged fighter male-turned-female. Not wearing armor and also focusing on using a bow. Will go magus later I'm told
- My Zen Archer
After some taling after our almost disastrous first session in which our fighter nearly died, I asked my DM if i could rework my Zen Archer.
The answer was yes, as long as i didn't change race nor class.
Here is what I am asking. Assuming the others aren't going to optimize their characters to the situation, how would i build my archer to be able to take a lot of punishment in melee combat without skimping out on my archery?
31 point-buy, must be human, must be Zen Archer, starting at level 2, expect to be taking a beating often.
Go!
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You provoke in melee combat because of your Improved Unarmed Strike (and later because of Reflexive Shot), so you don't have to worry about being up close and personal and can still make attacks of opportunity. Remember, you can always kick even if your hands are full. You also get Point Blank Master at level 3, so after that point you can fire an arrow in melee range as well. With a 31 point buy you'll have the opportunity to buff your Con decently, and you should probably consider Toughness and other things to buff your AC. I think you'll be fine, given a couple of levels.
The Zen Archer I made used Snake Style and a very high Sense Motive to basically be able to shed 1 attack per round which helped a lot for his survivability, of course I was designing him to be able to avoid ranged and ray attacks, not get into the thick of it melee-wise. Still a high Dex and high Wisdom should go a long way toward keeping you alive...
As for the title, the story has to start somewhere:
I recently joined a pathfinder game that was started up by a group of friends. I am the newcomer. I needed a character concept quickly, so i grabbed the Ratfolk Eldritch Archer I had been playing around with and got ready for a game. Then i was told No Ratfolk, so i went with a human Zen Archer instead.
Here's the catch. As the players began arriving and we got ready to start our first session, and the characters wererevealed as follows:
- A Scholar (some kind of 3pp skill monkey) with no use in combat
- An Assimar Cleric (i think?) who is building for mystic theurge. Wears no armor and his only weapon is a bow.
- A switch-hitter Ninja with emphasis on stealth. Has no STR bonus, even though it's 31 point buy.
- A ranged fighter male-turned-female. Not wearing armor and also focusing on using a bow. Will go magus later I'm told
- My Zen Archer
After some taling after our almost disastrous first session in which our fighter nearly died, I asked my DM if i could rework my Zen Archer.
The answer was yes, as long as i didn't change race nor class.Here is what I am asking. Assuming the others aren't going to optimize their characters to the situation, how would i build my archer to be able to take a lot of punishment in melee combat without skimping out on my archery?
31 point-buy, must be human, must be Zen Archer, starting at level 2, expect to be taking a beating often.
Go!
Seek and ye will find:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nix8?Zen-and-the-Art-of-Monk-Maintenance-A-Gui de
As for the title, the story has to start somewhere:
I recently joined a pathfinder game that was started up by a group of friends. I am the newcomer. I needed a character concept quickly, so i grabbed the Ratfolk Eldritch Archer I had been playing around with and got ready for a game. Then i was told No Ratfolk, so i went with a human Zen Archer instead.
Here's the catch. As the players began arriving and we got ready to start our first session, and the characters wererevealed as follows:
- A Scholar (some kind of 3pp skill monkey) with no use in combat
- An Assimar Cleric (i think?) who is building for mystic theurge. Wears no armor and his only weapon is a bow.
- A switch-hitter Ninja with emphasis on stealth. Has no STR bonus, even though it's 31 point buy.
- A ranged fighter male-turned-female. Not wearing armor and also focusing on using a bow. Will go magus later I'm told
- My Zen Archer
After some taling after our almost disastrous first session in which our fighter nearly died, I asked my DM if i could rework my Zen Archer.
The answer was yes, as long as i didn't change race nor class.Here is what I am asking. Assuming the others aren't going to optimize their characters to the situation, how would i build my archer to be able to take a lot of punishment in melee combat without skimping out on my archery?
31 point-buy, must be human, must be Zen Archer, starting at level 2, expect to be taking a beating often.
Go!
Seek and ye will find:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nix8?Zen-and-the-Art-of-Monk-Maintenance-A-Gui de
Huh, thanks. I'll look into it.
The thread right now should be on the top of the advice threads..
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Being Qinggong will help when you can trade away something for barkskin. Other than that, you'll naturally have a high AC as long as you keep throwing points into Wisdom (which is your attack stat anyway). See if you can get a pearl of power for your future mystic theurge to cast mage armour on you, as that will stack with your monk bonuses.
Once you have Point-Blank Master, it doesn't matter where you stand, so run right up to people and shoot them in the face!
I'll try it this way
Zen Archer certainly is not the tankiest of monks, but it's not bad, either. As you get more levels you'll be able to do more fun things with your AC, but for now you should be pretty resilient, especially where saves are concerned. As Damocles pointed out, Snake Style is awesome, I recommend it for your 3rd level slot, at which point you'll be getting Point Blank Mastery anyhow, so you can do more of the wading into melee thing. Anyways, I wanted to see what this guy would look like, so I made a rough build (obviously all just suggestion, you're the only one who knows enough about what you want/what your party needs). Traits should probably be taken based on backstory stuff, but if you're looking for synergistic ones, Defensive Strategist would be awesome for this guy.
Abilites (31 point buy):
Human Monk (Zen Archer) 2
Str 15
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 18 (16 base, +2 race)
Cha 7
Feats:
Level 1: Point Blank Shot
Human Bonus: Toughness
Monk Bonus 1: Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk Bonus 1: Dodge
Monk Bonus 1: Perfect Strike
Monk Bonus 2: Precise Shot
Monk Bonus 2: Weapon Focus (Longbow)
AC: 18 (+3 Dex, +4 Wis, +1 Dodge)
HP: 24 (13 Monk + 2 Favored Class + 3 Toughness +6 Con)
CMB: +3
CMD: 20
Saves:
Fort: +6
Ref: +6
Will: +7
Skills:
Acrobatics +8
Perception +9
Sense Motive +9
Stealth +8
Items:
Mwk. Composite Longbow (+2 Str) 600 gp
3 Potions of Mage Armor 150 gp (For big fights)
40 Blunt Arrows 4 gp (For skeletons)
5 Smoke Arrows 50 gp (For all kinds of reasons)
Any other assorted useful items / adventuring gear
Feel free to skimp on any of this and start saving for an Amulet of Natural Armor, etc.
My DM hands out all traits based on backstory presented. As i had none, I made one up on the fly. On the flip side, I happen to be a master improvisional speaker and got 4 traits for my character, but only one of them (reactionary) really helps my case. It's all fine though, my build doesn't need traits now that I'm working along the lines of Porcupine's guide.
The main problem though is less of how strong my character is and more of the current party composition. I can be a flanking buddy for the Ninja thanks to my Unarmed Strike, and once i hit level 3 being in melee will be much easier via not provoking AoO. That said, anything I can do or suggest to my party would be useful, as well as cheap gear we can take advantage of that would help even the playing field when we get attacked in Melee. I meant to suggest this in the title but went with Zen Archer Tank for marketing reasons ~_~
Yea, I'm currently looking at
Str - 14
Dex - 14
Con - 14
Int - 11
Wis - 20
Cha - 8
Because we have such a generous point buy, our GM discourages stat dumping and min-maxing. Other things to note is the house rules:
-If two people are next to each other and fighting the same opponent, they gain a +1 bonus on attacks and damage. This scales with the number of people (4 people would get +3 attack and damage). It really adds a whole new dimension to close combat.
-Any attack on an unaware person is an auto crit.
Are you attached to Zen Archer specifically (seems like you're all Ranged guys)?
Because swapping archetypes isn't swapping classes (though your GM may disagree) and something like a Monk of the Sacred Mountain can be very tank-y, and still dish it out pretty good. Grab either Dragon Style for damage or Snake/Crane Style for more defense and you're set.
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You really only need to survive 1 level - and then you will thrive.
For now this what you need to know:
- Don't take Point Blank Shot. At least not yet. You don't need it, and for now being outside of 30' is good for you (not so much for your party by the sounds of it). Never take Rapid Shot or Manyshot. You can't use them (or you shouldn't) they are traps.
- If you have a decent STR and no composite bow consider a sling. You don't have to flurry. Shoot & move.
- Toughness. A good first level feat for a Zen Archer. Even better for you given your role in the party. Hope you have it!
- wisdom is the only stat you care about. Max it. Invest In enhancing it.
- as cwheezy says: Wisdom in the Flesh is a fantastic trait for you. Disable device for break & enter shenanigans or Acrobatics if you plan to move around in the thick of melee. Stealth if you want to be sneaky!
- Qinggong is awesome, but not going to help you until level 4. At 4 do as Mergy says and swap snowfall for Barkskin.
Here's the good news - one more level and you are off to the races. Your biggest problem going forward is going to be not drawing the ire of the GM. They will hate it if you start putting down the BBEG in a hail of arrows. You're going to put all the other archers in your group to shame and starting next level you can stand in the front lines and shoot with impunity.
I've already started my Zen Archer Career so it's a no go. Must be this archetype, class, and race. I can modify my stat buy because everyone else had weeks to prepare and i was kinda rushed in, but that's the only reason I'm allowed. I also cannot modify my equipment (currently got a set of robes, longbow, and 72 arrows). Here's the most of it:
-I can alter stat buy
-I can alter feat selection
-I can alter skill points
-I can alter Favoured Class bonus
So far that's it. Here's what i have so far:
Atlas
Human 24 Male 5’3” 155lbs Quiddong Zen Archer 2
Kill this Campaign: 3
Traits:
Fast Talker: +1 Bluff, class skill (and 1 rank)
Suspicious: +1 Sense Motive, class skill (and 1 rank)
Child of the Streets: +1 Knowledge Local, class skill (and 1 rank)
Reactionary: +2 to initiative
Ability Scores:
Strength 14
Dexterity 14
Constitution 14
Intelligence 11
Wisdom 20
Charisma 8
Defensive Stats:
HP 19
Base AC 17
Touch AC 17
FlatFoot 15
Fortitude +5
Reflex +5
Will +8
CMD 20
Attack Rolls:
Iterative attacks (flurry) +3/+3
Damage Rolls:
Iterative Damage (flurry) D8/D8
Skills + Abilities:
Move speed 30
Acrobatics 7
Climb 6
Craft: Bow 4
Bluff 4
Kn: Local 5
Prof: Merc 9
Perception 12
Sense Motive 10
Stealth 7
Survival 6
Swim 6
Feats:
*Unarmed Strike
*Perfect Strike
*Precise Shot- no penalty for shooting into melee
{Skill Focus- Perception +3}
Improved Initiative- +4 initiative
*Weapon Focus- +1 to hit with a Longbow
**Point Blank Shot- +1 attack and damage within 30 ft
Gear:
Longbow
75 arrows
-Any attack on an unaware person is an auto crit.
:O
And nobody is playing a grim-reaper style Magus (Kensai) using a scythe and the Vanish spell to land x5 criticals!?
For extra fun toss in Frigid Touch for 8d6 + 10d4 + 5*(other damage) + auto staggered for 1 minute. Now I wanna play in your game.
-Any attack on an unaware person is an auto crit.:O
And nobody is playing a grim-reaper style Magus (Kensai) using a scythe and the Vanish spell to land x5 criticals!?
For extra fun toss in Frigid Touch for 8d6 + 10d4 + 5*(other damage) + auto staggered for 1 minute. Now I wanna play in your game.
It gets better. Crits explode, so if you roll a 20 on the confrim you roll again, get another 20 roll again, keep going and when you fail the crit multiplier is weapon base + number of successive crits rolled. This also applies to rolls of 1 though, so be careful. It's lethal.
Our fighter said he wanted to play magus later in his career. I'll pint him to that.
Please tell me the Ninja is going Improved Critical Wakizashis or something.
It will take level 7 to gain, but go towards Crane Wing. You can fight defensively with ranged attacks, the rules don't specify melee only. With Wis as your highest stat followed by dex, you should be able to tank reasonably well. Con and Str should have about equal importance.
It sounds to me though like you have a very range-focused party. Which does not have to be a bad thing if you embrace it. Get the casters to learn/prepare/cast battlefield control spells to lock enemies down or at least divide and conquer them as only a few stream out at a time, and shoot them down like fish in a barrel. Unconventional parties call for unconventional tactics. You also have quite a few stealth capable PCs, so scouting ahead and setting up ambushes could be a central strategy. Don't just assume the party *needs* a tank.
Katana and shortbow ninja.
My build is above, let me know what i can do to help my party out. Any advice for the others in my group would be welcome as well. So far it looks like they might need the advice better than I currently do; me readng this handy guide and all.
Weapon focus is part of a class feature. Only the feat with two astricks in front is something gained as a class feature that I can change. Point blank shot seemed like the best option for now, it was either that or combat reflexes.
I'm hoping he will go magus soon and realize that crap don't work on a bow. What he told us was that he was going fighter for one or two levels, then going straight magus so hopefully well have an AhA moment for the fighter soon.
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Please tell me your ninja has vanishing trick with that rule set...or is a goblin with +20 to stealth at level 1 and has plans for HiPS? If not, let him die and make a proper ninja damn it.
The fighter wants to MC fighter and magus?!? Sure it wasn't wizard to go into EK? Because the EK route is a valid option...it sucks monkey balls at low levels but you do end up more powerful then a magus at higher level for people who like themselves some gish goodness. If he insists on fi/magus...once again let him die and tell him to either make a magus or a proper EK build with just one level of fighter at the start.
The cleric who wants to be a MT...yeah death. And tell him to make a witch if that is what he wants.
The scholar...umm are the skills he brings to the party outside of combat actually off the charts good? Or could the bard do what he brings...only not actually useless in combat? If his skills off combat is off the charts good...fine he can stay...otherwise death...and tell him to make a bard.
Basically, screw rebuilding your zen archer for their benefit...they made rather horrible characters. Let em die, learn their lesson and actually not make gimps the next time around.
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Weapon focus is part of a class feature. Only the feat with two astricks in front is something gained as a class feature that I can change. Point blank shot seemed like the best option for now, it was either that or combat reflexes.
Your build is solid. Since you need to tank Dodge may be a better option then Point Blank Shot for you right now - once you hit 3rd level and have point blank master and are shooting off Wisdom Point Blank Shot may be better as you will wind up being within 30' a lot of the time.
So basically if I were you'd I'd either do nothing (use current build), or swap PBS for Dodge (if I felt the extra AC was worth it), and take PBS later.
Flavour wise if your Monk worships Irori, Wisdom in the Flesh is a good trait. If your Monk worships Erastil there is a trait in the PFS organized play guide called Hunters Eye that is great for Archers of all stripes. This is all fluff mind you and traits may not be on the table anyhow.
In closing cold napalm sums it up succinctly - the other players can fix their characters when they perish. Your build rocks.
Yea. The Scholar has a +10 in all knowledge skills right from level 1, but personally i still think a bard or a kowledge based wizard-cleric archaetype could do what he does and bring more to the table. Everything the scholar accomplishes can be done as a human with feats and one of those classes that add 1/2 level to al knowledge skills. The catch is he'd be better in combat.
It's a little sad, but I guess being the lone survivor is what i have to look forward too. I'll point the "magus" in the direction of being an EK (it was the class i originally intended to be before Ratfolk was banned) and help him understand how to build it. The ninja i don't know what he's up to but the 10 STR will hurt him if he goes melee. Outside of those two all i can do is survive and hope they brng better characters to the table ( i guess) next time.
THanks for the advice guys. Any more suggestions and tips will be welcome.
Yea but he's not taking it for that. He's taking it for the Jack of All Trades line : / which humans can get from the Improvisation feat line. He's basically our skill monkey; I'll try and convince him to take trapfinding as our Rogue is a ninja if he still wants to continue on that class.
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It doesn't matter what the class is capable of. I could make a wizard that is utterly trash in combat and out by taking very bad spells and refusing to learn the good ones while being a universalist with 7 str. It sounds like all he brings to the table is +10 to knowledge...which is only 1 shy of what most wizards get (+1 rank, +3 class skill, +5 int). If your human, three of those can be +12 at level 1. If he refused to be of value to the party, let em die.
Unfortunately, Cold Napalm, I find that often times a character's usefulness in combat is indirectly proportional to his survival rate.
Something about the NPCs being smart enough to go after the ones who are actually threats.
So in practice, the bum load PCs will just end up getting the other PCs killed.