Greetings all. I am new to PF so learning this as I go. (Not to D&D, just out of the loop for a few years.) We have a group starting up soon and I am trying to decide exactly which way to go here. Currently AFAIK, we have a kender rog, another rog, a vanilla cleric, a ranger and a tank type. Unfortunately I am not quite sure of details on most of them at this point. Tank will likely be a pally or fighter. In any case as you can see we are severely arcane light. I don't care for wizards as I hate having to try and pick and choose what spells to mem for each day. Not to mention a severe lack of slots at each level to cast them. I prefer the "on the fly" versatility of a sorcerer. However, since they are limited in spell selection, I am not sure if a sorc could fill the arcane slot of the party effectively. I was seriously considering taking a Sylvan variant to add another decent melee/tank(ish) toon by way of Boon Companion + Enlarge person + pet, but the Magus/Bladebound looks like a viable alternative as well, (though not quite as tankable). (And as I sit here and type this I realize I have more melee in the party than I thought. Not sure if an "Enlarged" pet would be of great benefit?) In any case, I was hoping to garner some opinions or alternate viewpoints on the problem.
My 2nd question is trait suggestions for the above toons. I have seen plenty of guides mentioning feats/spell selections, but very few seem to touch on the traits. We will be playing "Rise of the Runelords" if it helps at all.
Thanks in advance for any advice.
If you think that you have too much melee, than Magus is not the road for you.
The magus is awesome.
A HEXCRAFTER MAGUS is better. They get Witch Hexes like slumber, flight, evil eye etc.
Make a char that can fight. Can blast AND save or die/debuff.
Go to the Guide to the Guides thread and Check out the Guide to the Hexcrafter.
3 powerful builds in there and tips on char creation.
A sorcerer can play the wizard-y role pretty well, actually. A full caster could be very effective for this group. Looks like you have enough fighting characters. Some serious arcane mojo would be good.
Sorcerer seems like the better choice here. The Magus has to pick and choose spells to memorize like the wizard, which you said you don't like, and has a limited spell selection and spells per day compared to sorc.
If you do play sorcerer, just set aside a decent portion of your budget for scrolls and wands, and you'll be fine.
@LazarX: When I first started writing this post I thought I was going to be kind of light on front line melee (I don't consider typical rog front line, but I keep forgetting about the ranger and the cleric with the heavy armor can do it in a pinch.) But I did not remember/think about all of that until I was typing out who we had above. My only real question about one vs the other would be if the magus would be worth taking simply because he has a wider spell selection than the sorc by advent of a spellbook. Though I suppose that if that is my thought process, I might as well just go full bore wizzy, even though the Magus gets to cast 1 more spell per level per day. (Apologies for the rambling, I am think out loud as I type.)
That being said, I assume that Arcane Bloodline is still the best one for a well-rounded Sorc? I want to be versatile, though mostly battlefield control and blasting I suppose. A bit limited in spells known to do it all (do it well anyway). Buffs would run a close 2nd to BC though. Other than the pet, the Sylvan doesn't seem to be suited for that? Thought about going heavy on summoning, but now it seems like that would also be adding more melee where it is not necessarily needed. (I am used to playing a rog not a caster. But with 2 already in the party, that seemed a waste.)
magus is a good choice, have you looked at the bards much? very similar versatility with spells light spell casting.
There is also oracle,
Or, have you considered Oracle/Sorcerer/Mystic theurge?
arcane bloodline sorcerors are great, but if you don't like using familiars or metamagic, probably not the best choice especially if starting out from level 1. fey is a good choice, with laughing touch and entangle at low levels, and bonus to compulsion DCs. but most of the bloodlines have something good going on, just check them out and decide based on all the factors (arcana, bloodline powers, bonus spells).
human sorcerors can get extra spells known in lieu of the normal favored class bonuses, which helps alot (not of max spell level at the time you take the bonus). taking 'extra arcana' feats for extra spells known can also be a good idea, and there is also items that can grant you additional spells known (rings/pages of spell knowledge) in addition to scrolls and wands. since you say you're familiar with D&D, you can probably discern the spells that will be broadly useful and crucial for doing things your group would otherwise have difficulty with, and avoid the trap of solely focusing on 'blasting' (which can be OK, but you don't need to focus solely on that).
bards work like sorcerors, but also get performance, which considering the number of melee/ranged combatants in your group, would be very effective. they are also more able to contribute in normal combat, so you can do that in lieu of casting some of the time. (probably ranged if your group is so melee heavy) with a high CHA and lots of skill ranks, you should be able to use UMD to use non-bardic spell items like scrolls/wands. there is a 'magician' archetype for bards that gets to add some non-bard spells to their list, although not right away and it's only a few spells, but that could be what you are looking for.
I had not thought about bard. They have always seemed rather gimped in the past. So I have never even looked at in PF. Will take a gander at it. But the "jack of all trades" would seem to be outshined by all of the "experts" in our party. Rog, tracker, melee, etc. I don't mind using metamagic, though I will have to research and see how to use them to best effect. I really liked TM's wizard guide as it pointed out several ways of doing things with MM's that I had never considered before. (I do wish he had gotten around to updating it beyond core though.) But I do think a focused arcane is probably better to fill the arcane hole. I'll look though.
@Pedagast I thought about Mystic Theurge, but as nice as they may be at higher levels, they seem like they are pretty gimp (not useless, just gimp) until mid teens at least I would think, thanks to the 3/3 (4/4 for Ora/Sorc). Or am I missing something important there?
Side question: Just out of curiosity, do familiars get a "Boon Companion" style feat? (Or some other inherent way to improve their survival chances?) Or just the Improved Familiar?
One more passing thought, 3.5 used to have a metamagic feat that would let you change the energy type of spells...energy substitution I think it was...on the few occasions I played an arcane toon, I liked using it to make everything sonic based. Is there anything like that in PF? I have not been able to find anything so far.
There is the Elemental Spell metamagic, but it doesn't have sonic damage as a choice. (can ask gm about making a homebrew one, maybe requiring Elemental Spell as a prerequisite or adding a +2 to the spell level. Far as I know, there's still barely anything that resists sonic damage vs things resistant to various elements.)
Bards done right can be pretty awesome and a great addition to a party. Heaven knows how much my magus loved a +5 to hit stuff.
just improved familiar. all familiars regardless of type have the same HPs and base Saves anyways, and they all get SR eventually.
there is such a metamagic feat, but it doesn't work with sonic (or, it's unclear but Paizo stated that on the boards AFAIK).
the elemental sorceror bloodlines let you shift energy spells into your 'given' energy type for free though. (acidball, coldbolts, etc)
not many other classes can compare to the bard's expertise in making their allies kick ass :-)
While Maguses technically have more potential spells known than a sorcerer, it's from what's almost entirely a combat only list.
@Quandry What is the name of that feat? Maybe I can get my GM to homebrew one similar. I'll have to figure out a fluff reason for it maybe. Though other than a loud mouthed braggart or something, I am not sure what the fluff concept would be...have to ponder that one.
The feat Quandary is referring to is Elemental Spell.
For what it's worth, I've had a blast playing a spell-focused Bard. The class has several strengths:
1. They're a fantastic force multiplier. With Inspire Courage, you can give all of your allies a significant bonus to their attack and damage rolls. At seventh level, you'll be able to start Inspire Courage as a move action, which means you can start it and cast a second buff in the first round. A seventh level Bard with Inspire Courage and Haste can give everyone +3 to attack and damage, +1 to AC and reflex saves, an extra attack, and a 30 foot bonus to speed on the first round of combat.
2. Bards get solid battlefield control spells. These include standards like Grease, which can disarm low-reflex foes; Glitterdust, which can blind frontliners and reveal invisible creatures; and Slow, which significantly reduces the threat posed by enemies with multiple attacks. The class also has a few unique spells, like Cacophonous Call, an enchantment that nauseates a single target, rendering it incapable of performing standard actions. The spell disables enemies almost as well as Hold Person, but they only get to save once, not each round.
3. Bards allow you to react to events using immediate action spells. If an ally fails a save, you can give them a reroll with Saving Finale. If they fail an important skill check-like the one to cross a bridge over a deep chasm or convince a jury they're innocent-you can give them a significant bonus with Gallant Inspiration.
Did I mention that bards are great at skills? There are two reasons for that:
1. They get Versatile Performance, which allows them to substitute their modifier for a perform skill when using two other skills. For example, choosing Perform (Oratory) gives them access to Diplomacy and Sense Motive and choosing Perform (Comedy) gives them access to Bluff and Intimidate. This lets you learn more skills with your skill points, allows Skill Focus and trait-based skill bonuses to apply to several skills, and might allow you to use your Charisma modifier for skills normally governed by Wisdom (Sense Motive) or Dexterity (Acrobatics).
2. They get several bonuses related to knowledge skills. First, they can make checks untrained. Second, they add half their level to any knowledge check. Third, they can take 10 on any knowledge skill all day and eventually gain the ability to take 20 on a check a few times a day.
You're right that a Bard will never match a specialist, but if you're comfortable playing a support character, they're a blast. You won't need to match the specialist because you're making all of your allies hit harder with Inspire Courage, disabling dangerous enemies with spells, and identifying enemies' weaknesses with reliable knowledge checks.
Of course, this comes at a price. Bards have some great spells, but they don't have as many spell slots as a dedicated caster. If you're in a campaign where you expect to have long days, you might not be able to cast every round, which means you'll need to find something else to do. Most people recommend archery or melee. I've had fun using the Sound Striker archetype to deal damage with my voice.
Also, since you have two rogues, a bard's skills might be less useful for your party than they are for others. If you do play one, be careful about stepping into their areas of expertise.
Having praised bards, I'd like to reinforce that a sorcerer can provide the battlefield control and buff spells you're looking for. This is particularly true for humans, who can use their favored class bonus to gain an extra spell known rather than a skill point or hit point.
Arcane Duelist gets a bunch of good bonus feats at the cost of the skillmonkey stuff. Their 5th level arcane bond allows them to cast while wielding, allowing a 2handed weapon choice like a longbow or bardiche.
As far as sorcerors, looks like with that party that the Sylvan animal companion would be largely wasted. As others have said, going human (favored class bonus) or half-elf (Paragon Surge) would give you as much or more versatility as a wizard, without the prepared caster stress.
Magus combines the stress of the prepared caster with a staggeringly less versatile spell list, doesn't sound like it would work as well for you.
For sonic damage, Experimental Wordcaster could pick you up some higher damage sonic spells than I've seen elsewhere, as well as standard action speedbump summoning or other interesting effects (Accelerate for an extra move action to give party more full attacks, as an example) on the other levels. The feat Discordant Voice lets you give everybody 1d6 sonic damage to their weapons while you're inspiring courage. The admixture wizard and elemental spell metamagic both only work for the big 4 elements, no sonic included unfortunately.
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