Because of backstory reasons I'm going to be put the majority of my wealth into My greatAxe. What do you guys think are the best enchantments. I plan on doing alot of sundering.
Furious and Courageous
To clarify, Furious increases the bonus of the weapon by +2 when raging, which should be almost all the time.
Courageous increases morale bonuses, which, you know, is pretty much every Rage bonus.
Furious and Courageous
Furious is good, but Barabians get a +2 moral bonus to their saves when rage that does not stack with Courageous moral bonus.
Edit: just read the second ability for Courageous, but do plus specials count when totaling a weapon's enchantment bonus?
Furious and CourageousFurious is good, but Barabians get a +2 moral bonus to their saves when rage that does not stack with Courageous moral bonus.
Edit: just read the second ability for Courageous, but do plus specials count when totaling a weapon's enchantment bonus?
"In addition, any morale bonus the wielder gains from any other source is increased by half the weapon's enhancement bonus (minimum 1)"
That's why you want it.
Edit: Yes, it would apply.
If you happen to have DR 6/- Vicious could work well. You deal an extra 2d6 on every attack while dealing 1d6 to yourself, but if you have DR 6/- then you never take damage! (Don't know if it's PFS legal, but my GM approved of it.)
enhancement bonus! never underestimate the value of an extra 5% chance to hit (or confirm a crit)- especially when you're built for a small number of big swings (like a barb with a great axe) instead of lots smaller hits (like most archers or 2-weapon fighters). plus, the bonus (to Str, Con, and Will while raging) from courageous is based on the weapon's enhancement bonus.
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If you happen to have DR 6/- Vicious could work well. You deal an extra 2d6 on every attack while dealing 1d6 to yourself, but if you have DR 6/- then you never take damage! (Don't know if it's PFS legal, but my GM approved of it.)Vicious damage is not negated by DR.
This^^, the damage inflicted by vicious isn't typed and DR only reduces physical damage.
So if I was welding a +1 Furious, Courageous and Vicious Greataxe well raging I would get a extra +2 moral bonus to str, con and will saves? If I have superstition as well I can add my other saves to the list?
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So if I was welding a +1 Furious, Courageous and Vicious Greataxe well raging I would get a extra +2 moral bonus to str, con and will saves? If I have superstition as well I can add my other saves to the list?
The save bonuses from Superstition are a morale bonus and would also be increased by Courageous.
This^^, the damage inflicted by vicious isn't typed and DR only reduces physical damage.If you happen to have DR 6/- Vicious could work well. You deal an extra 2d6 on every attack while dealing 1d6 to yourself, but if you have DR 6/- then you never take damage! (Don't know if it's PFS legal, but my GM approved of it.)Vicious damage is not negated by DR.
Seems like I should take Vicious off the list of Enchantments. Does Pathfinder have magebane I remember that being a enchantment in 3.5 that acted like a +2 against stuff that can cast spell or spell-like abilities which by the the time I can actually afford this thing is everybody and their dog.
Edit: ninjad
So if I was welding a +1 Furious, Courageous and Vicious Greataxe well raging I would get a extra +2 moral bonus to str, con and will saves? If I have superstition as well I can add my other saves to the list?
I don't think Vicious is worth it at all. But yes, Furious and Courageous were almost custom made for Barbarians. Oh, also try and get your caster buddies to give you Moment of Greatness before combat...
with a +1 furious courageous axe the bonus while raging would be +3. 1/2 rounded down is +1str/con etc u would get.. i would suggest +2 furious before u get courageous, that way u get the +2str/con.. i would get vicous at all, keen is way better of a +1 enchantment..
Moment of Greatness is just a first level spell. Well I guess being able to have a about a +6 or more moral bonus in combat is unusual for non-Barbarians.
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Tangent - Vicious is a weapon enchant. The Barbarian Damage reduction specifically reduces damage dealt by a weapon or natural attack. Wouldn't it still apply, since the damage is coming from a weapon (albiet your own)?
Here's a quick link to Damage Reduction for reference.
Vicious specifically does energy damage. Damage Reduction says "Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains."So it doesn't negate Vicious, Flaming, Frost, Corrosive or any of the other types of energy damage associated with weapon enchants (or associated with anything else).
Does anyone else see a thread like this where someone says: "What's the best weapon enchant for my class?" and within a few minutes a dozen responses come all saying "enchantment A and B!" without thinking "Huh... really? Every barbarian wandering through the world has a furious/courageous weapon? How ..... interesting..."
This isn't to knock the original OP whose question is completely reasonable, nor to knock the responders whose answer appears to be universally acknowledged.
It's more directed at the game designers and is a way of asking "So, was it really your intention to make one class build combination so vastly superior to others for that class that the first dozen responses to the question are all the same?"
Here's a quick link to Damage Reduction for reference.
Vicious specifically does energy damage. Damage Reduction says "Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains."So it doesn't negate Vicious, Flaming, Frost, Corrosive or any of the other types of energy damage associated with weapon enchants (or associated with anything else).
Wait, so all those posts I read saying how much better a +2/+2 sword was compared to a +1/+1 +d6 energy because of DR were assuming that DR applied to energy?
Does anyone else see a thread like this where someone says: "What's the best weapon enchant for my class?" and within a few minutes a dozen responses come all saying "enchantment A and B!" without thinking "Huh... really? Every barbarian wandering through the world has a furious/courageous weapon? How ..... interesting..."
This isn't to knock the original OP whose question is completely reasonable, nor to knock the responders whose answer appears to be universally acknowledged.
It's more directed at the game designers and is a way of asking "So, was it really your intention to make one class build combination so vastly superior to others for that class that the first dozen responses to the question are all the same?"
My guess is Furious yes, Courageous no.
Wait, so all those posts I read saying how much better a +2/+2 sword was compared to a +1/+1 +d6 energy because of DR were assuming that DR applied to energy?
Here's a quick link to Damage Reduction for reference.
Vicious specifically does energy damage. Damage Reduction says "Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains."So it doesn't negate Vicious, Flaming, Frost, Corrosive or any of the other types of energy damage associated with weapon enchants (or associated with anything else).
I thought it was because u get a +5%hit and damage from the +2 over +1 and the 1d6 is moot after 5th level due to common resistances..
I thought it was because u get a +5%hit and damage from the +2 over +1 and the 1d6 is moot after 5th level due to common resistances..Wait, so all those posts I read saying how much better a +2/+2 sword was compared to a +1/+1 +d6 energy because of DR were assuming that DR applied to energy?
Here's a quick link to Damage Reduction for reference.
Vicious specifically does energy damage. Damage Reduction says "Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains."So it doesn't negate Vicious, Flaming, Frost, Corrosive or any of the other types of energy damage associated with weapon enchants (or associated with anything else).
That has been pretty much proven to be untrue already, even considering the DR question. The +2/+2 weapon doesn't gain an advantage over the energy weapon until the individual attack damage bonus gets over +20 or so. If you can get to +20 on your damage by level 5, then yes. But I don't see a lot of builds with +20 damage by then.
It's more directed at the game designers and is a way of asking "So, was it really your intention to make one class build combination so vastly superior to others for that class that the first dozen responses to the question are all the same?"
The trick is an impasse between player and character knowledge.
The player asked what the best enchantments are--the character almost certainly wouldn't without some Spellcraft.
So, no, most barbarians won't have the same weapon enchantments because there are issues of knowledge and availability to answer.
In a vacuum, though, yeah, there is a "best answer."
Do you have the same complaint that all wizards have Intelligence as their highest stat? Or that everyone who wants to dual wield takes Two Weapon Fighting?
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My guess is Furious yes, Courageous no.Does anyone else see a thread like this where someone says: "What's the best weapon enchant for my class?" and within a few minutes a dozen responses come all saying "enchantment A and B!" without thinking "Huh... really? Every barbarian wandering through the world has a furious/courageous weapon? How ..... interesting..."
This isn't to knock the original OP whose question is completely reasonable, nor to knock the responders whose answer appears to be universally acknowledged.
It's more directed at the game designers and is a way of asking "So, was it really your intention to make one class build combination so vastly superior to others for that class that the first dozen responses to the question are all the same?"
I have a sneaking suspicion that Courageous was intended to be a boon to parties with bards, and the fact that it's super good for barbarians was an unintended side-effect.
Don't think keen is that great for a great axe due to the small crit range. (yes I know Great-axes are worse than great swords).
Edit: also I plan on taking reckless abandon so I don't think I will miss much.
Do you have the same complaint that all wizards have Intelligence as their highest stat? Or that everyone who wants to dual wield takes Two Weapon Fighting?
mpl, I certainly hope you are being deliberately disingenuous instead of not realizing the difference between a character purchasing a couple of weapon enchantments and the fundamental character building concept of classes having primary attributes.
I mean I HOPE so.
Moment of Greatness
Each creature affected by this spell is given the potential for greater success and glory. If the affected creature is benefiting from a morale bonus of any type, it can double that morale bonus on one roll or check, before making the roll. Once an affected creature uses this spell’s effect, the spell is discharged for that subject.
Don't see why that would not help a BarBarian. When raging I might have a +6 moral bonus to my fort. So if someone cast a spell on me and I have to make a fort save I can add +3 to my save (also works for other saves with superstition). Or when rolling damage double my moral bonus to str for that damage roll (probably not worth it, but who knows). The great part is I can pick when in the fight to activate it.
Rycaut, yes, when you get to +5 I think you bypass DR, so you could argue that if you are going to just keep upgrading a weapon then you should focus on that until you get to +5.
However, my own experiences have been that I have rarely (actually NEVER) played a character above level 15, and the vast majority of my characters retire around level 12, and so never really reach the point where magical enhancements are going to automatically bypass DR.
From what I see and hear from talking with other gamers, that's pretty common actually.
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The reason that additional static bonuses help with DR is that a highly magical weapon will bypass DR of some types. (I don't have the chart in front of me at the moment)
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Here you go:
DR Type Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent
cold iron/silver +3
adamantine* +4
alignment-based +5
* Note that this does not give the ability to ignore hardness, like an actual adamantine weapon does
If more information will help for the other pluses this is a king-maker campaign.
mpl, I certainly hope you are being deliberately disingenuous instead of not realizing the difference between a character purchasing a couple of weapon enchantments and the fundamental character building concept of classes having primary attributes.
:P
Come on, you know it was hyperbole. The point is, I don't see why you object to there being a "best" enchantment. Whenever there are options, there will always be a "best" choice.
If you have actually read Moment of Greatness, it does nothing for Barbarians(except for a few specific rage powers)
Let me fix that for you:
"except for a few specific rage powers that pretty much every Barbarian takes"
Superstitious is the big one, for example, but honestly, almost every rage power that grants a bonus grants a morale bonus.
I have a sneaking suspicion that Courageous was intended to be a boon to parties with bards, and the fact that it's super good for barbarians was an unintended side-effect.
Actually, as a huge fan of bards, I can tell you that they mostly grant competence bonuses. The only morale bonuses they give are to saves vs. fear/charm with Inspire Courage and from Good Hope.
Other things that grant morale bonuses:
The Flagbearer feat
Paladin Auras
Cavalier Banners
Uh, yeah, so they're pretty rare, and the majority of them affect saves vs. fear/charm. Note: I'm not pretending to have listed every morale bonus
It was probably intended as an "anti-fear" weapon, but inadvertantly buffed Barbarians in the process.
mpl, I certainly hope you are being deliberately disingenuous instead of not realizing the difference between a character purchasing a couple of weapon enchantments and the fundamental character building concept of classes having primary attributes.:P
Come on, you know it was hyperbole. The point is, I don't see why you object to there being a "best" enchantment. Whenever there are options, there will always be a "best" choice.
Well, I hoped so. It's hard to tell on these boards... But I've seen enough of your posts to think "surely that's what it is..."
Technically I didn't "object" to it, I simply said "huh, what's up with that? Is that what you guys meant to happen?"
And the reason I do that is because of how quick and overwhelming the response to "what's the best enchantment for THIS CLASS" was.
It wasn't "I want to play a pounce-charging barbarian with a greatsword, what's the best..."
Nor was it "I want to play a CMB trip-AoE barbarian with TWF, what's the best..."
It was "I want to play a barbarian what's the best..."
And there was no hesitation. No debate. No "um.. what SORT of barbarian do you want to be?"
That means to me that these two enchantments are so much better for barbarians than any other choice that once you pick the CLASS, you have pretty much set your goal for weapon enchantments.
I don't mind there being a "best enchantment" or "best feat" or "best weapon" for a particular specific build concept, like Longbow mounted archer ranger. (But even then I like some variety even if just for flavor's sake.)
But when the answer is that fast and that unanimous for an entire CLASS, that suggests that class is, or has become, a one-trick pony, and I just really don't care for one trick ponies.
I would guess if I went to Gencon or a PFS tournament that 90+% of barbarians who could afford "furious/courageous" would have "furious/courageous".
That just strikes me as lazy and boring game design, coupled with massive metagaming by players.
That's all.
I don't mind there being a "best enchantment" or "best feat" or "best weapon" for a particular specific build concept, like Longbow mounted archer ranger.
But when the answer is that fast and that unanimous for an entire CLASS, that suggests that class is, or has become, a one-trick pony, and I just really don't care for one trick ponies.
Ok, I accept that. Fair point. I don't really have the same problem with one-trick ponies, since most classes already are one-trick ponies, but I can see the objection.
mpl, I don't agree that "most classes are already one-trick ponies". But I suppose we'll just have to disagree on that.
However, you could test it out by posting the following threads on the advice forum:
"Hey, what's the best weapon enchantment for a fighter?"
or
"Hey, what's the best feat for a druid?"
or
"Hey, what's the best spell school for a wizard?"
I'd be willing to bet that you wouldn't get twelve identical answers in ten minutes to any of those questions. In fact I would bet that the first responses you would get would be "duh! what KIND of XXXX?"
So I know that everyone pushes the courageous enchantment. That unfortunately is because they use it incorrectly. Courageous functions at 1/2 your ENHANCEMENT bonus (minimum 1). Special abilities (courageous, furious, flaming, etc) do not count towards the enhancement bonus of the weapon . This means that if you have a +1 weapon with a bunch of enchantments on it you still only get a +1 bonus from courageous. In order to get a +2 bonus you need to have a +4 enhancement bonus on your weapon (ie. it is a +4 weapon)
The minimum weapon required to get a +2 bonus from courageous is:
+2 Courageous Furious weapon while raging.
Until then you will only have a +1 bonus and it won't get you much unless your stats are an odd number.
Edit: It is still a great enchantment for a barbarian as they can squeeze out a +3 bonus from courageous when furious causes a +4 weapon to become a +6 weapon while raging.
Edit2: Fixed an error
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The minimum weapon required to get a +2 bonus from courageous is:
+3 Courageous Furious weapon while raging.Until then you will only have a +1 bonus and it won't get you much unless your stats are an odd number.
Pretty sure it would be a +2 Courageous Furious weapon since Furious increases the enhancement bonus by +2. Even the +1 minimum bonus is nice for characters with odd stat scores, or for raising the various other morale bonuses you get while raging, like Superstition, to-hit bonuses from abilities like Surprise Accuracy, etc.
Yes you are right. I will edit it.
I'd be willing to bet that you wouldn't get twelve identical answers in ten minutes to any of those questions. In fact I would bet that the first responses you would get would be "duh! what KIND of XXXX?"
There's often a best class item for slot, if there isn't a no brainer weapon enchant like Furious for Barbarians (I'm not sold on Courageous).
Examples:
Q: What kind of magic gloves should my fighter have?
A: Gloves of Dueling.
Q: What kind of magic robe should my monk wear?
A: Monk's Robe.
And that's not to mention the fact that other slots are already dominated by the same items for every class, such as the Cloak of Resistance, Amulet of Natural Armor, Belts of +Stat for physical stat characters, Headband of +Stat for mental stat characters...
Because of backstory reasons I'm going to be put the majority of my wealth into My greatAxe. What do you guys think are the best enchantments. I plan on doing alot of sundering.The Power of Grayskull? ;)
Before my time.
Petty, I hear you. My response to your point about slot items is that there are a lot of slots and each slot has a rather limited set of items that are even remotely suitable for classes, much less concepts within the class.
There are many more weapon and armor enchantments per type of weapon. That's in part because most enchantments break down to either melee or ranged, so each enchantment can go on dozens of weapons.
But it's also because weapons and armor are generally much more critical to a character's survival.
As much as I'd love to see a dozen glove slot options for every class, I accept that's just not as likely to happen as weapon or armor. So I'm more lenient on the idea that a "druid's vestment" is the default robe slot item for a druid (although my own druid doesn't use it... but I'm weird).
Hey Adamantine Dragon, what's the best feat for a Barbarian, 2H fighter, 2H paladin, and most other melee oriented builds based on strength.
Yeah, thanks for pointing out that this game design issue is not restricted to just a single class and a few magic items.