Making a viable Sap Master build

[Rycaut]

So I need to make a new character for a Rise of the Runelords campaign. We are using, I think, only Paizo books, a 25 point build with 3 traits (one has to be a campaign trait from the updated players guide to RotR.

I'm considering making a Sap Master build but debating race and class combos.

Clearly a straight rogue or ninja are viable options but I'm looking at:

- multiclassing with Monk for improved unarmed strike (to qualify for useful related feats). If I go Halfling then underfoot adept is tempting otherwise perhaps maneuver master (to help land sneak attacks via using dirty trick) or an archetype that gives up evasion (since my primary class would be rogue/ninja and would get evasion there. If I do I monk then ninja is likely the plan. Aasimar would offer some nifty options for this build (one variant gets a trait to be a neutral or neutral good monk).

- multiclassing with fighter (unarmed? Not sure what style to pick) primarily for the BAB boost and feats. Not sure if they are worth the trade off in slower sneak attack progression.

At higher levels if I have the feats might take leadership for a flanking buddy but that will depend on the party mix and DM & party feelings about leadership.

There are a few prestige classes that get sneak attack progression but other than possibly noble scion none of the at first glance seem to fit my build idea.

The core plan would be to be capable of maneuvering on the battlefield to deliver a sneak attack which renders enemies unconscious most of the time. (A likely 6d6+6 when he first gets) while still having a lot of other tricks and our of combat stuff to offer the party. (Scouting, traps, skills etc)

Races I have considered:

Halfling (for underfoot adept as well as for the image in the future of a small Halfling claiming up a giant to knock it out. Would likely look very seriously at the Halfling Opportunist prestige class)

Aasimars - always nice not to have a penalty to stats. Plus the variant heritages (or possibly the variant ability table) offer a lot of build flexibility mechanically and flavor wise) could build any class combos.

Dwarf - a dwarf rogue that sneaks behind foes and brings the hammer down seems like great fun. Gets some useful weapon proficiencies as well as a lot of great bonuses with fun flexibility from the ARG as well. Would consider many different build options for the dwarf likely taking a level at least in a full BAB class for martial weapon proficiency for all the fun dwarven weapons.

And of course human is an option for any build that requires a number of feats.

[MacGurcules]

Funfact: You can combine the Underfoot Adept and Maneuver Master archetypes since they don't overlap on any monk abilities. They work pretty well together, too.

If you're looking to maximize your sneak attacks through Sap Master, it may not be the way to go, though. You need a few levels of Underfoot Adept before you start getting size bonuses and that'll cut into your levels in a sneak attack class. Ki Throw can help offset this by giving you an alternate route for bypassing size restrictions on Trip and if you continue on in Ninja, you'll have Ki to fuel it.

[Darigaaz the Igniter]

Human Vivisectionist Alchemist

Feats: Bludgeoner, Sap Adept

Str 16 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 8; human +2 not added yet

skills, traits, etc to your liking

[Rycaut]

Indeed and giving up flurry for a sap master might be painful (multiple attacks each dealing 2x sneak damage... Sign me up)

Though my main plan would be to build high STR and wield a two-handed bludgeoning weapon then take Bludgeoner to deal non-lethal with a high damage weapon like an Earth Breaker. (So 2d6 + 1.5xSTR as my base damage plus 2x(sneak damage) + 2x#ofsneakdice) = very decent damage when sneaking with two handed weapon... If I could get iterative or multiple attacks it would be even more awesome...
All with a x3 crit weapon...

If I do go monk then looking a monk weapons and possible ways to get exotic weapon proficiency to use a great bludgeoning monk weapon would be an option to explore.

[asthyril]

it will be hard to get the sap master bonuses. sap master requires the target to be flat footed, and anyone currently in combat is not flat footed, even if they are flanked.

prd wrote:

A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC and Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD) (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat or Uncanny Dodge class ability.

anyone currently aware and conscious during combat can make AoOs, and is not flat footed like sap master requires. even if you have greater invisibility on you, if your opponent is aware(in combat) and capable of making AoOs you cannot use sap master on them. the first round of combat is usually all you get.

[Rycaut]

I generally don't play Evil characters so the flavor of the vivisectionist doesn't appeal. Nor do I like using poisons which is another key part of that class.

My concept is a character that avoids killing as much as possible but believes the most merciful path is to end conflicts quickly - hence the sap master route. (Heavens oracle with color spray is another approach I could take to this type of build)

He will be effective however when necessary at doing lethal damage but likely if he has the feats he would look at approaches like sunder, grapple & pin, or disarm as other means of ending conflict quickly. How he deals with spellcasters is a question - if he can't sneak up and knock them out (or flank and knock them out). Possibly UMD and magical tricks (or ninja abilities)?

[Maxximilius]

Underhanded rogue talent + Betrayer feat tree. Succeed at a Diplomacy roll, and that's two attack rolls (immediate action, standard action from surprise round) at best BAB dealing maximum damage on already doubled sneak attack dice since the target is still flat-footed.

Oh, and you may then win initiative, granting another sneak attack against the target if it isn't KO yet.

[Kiinyan]

I know this requires a ton of feats and such, but this gives a ton of bonuses to make sap master builds work:
Monk of some kind (either maneuver master to blind, I actually don't suggest this, you'll see why, or flurry for the bonus attacks and unarmed damage.) only one level I think. This sets you up for knockout artist, sap adepts younger brother (that stack!).
The rest I suggest rogue (thug archetype). Take the sap master chain, and also take enforcer (or power attack/cornugon smash) and cap it with weapon focus, dazzling display, and shatter defenses. It's fairly feat heavy, so definitely use the rogue talents for the feats.

this gives you the ability to fairly well debilitate an enemy (stack shaken, sickened, flat footed, and frightened). Every non lethal attack allows a demoralize, hit them again to flat footed, then destroy.

Non that I'm considering it, the be monk level isn't great. You fall behind in BaB, you don't really need the maneuver, the flurry doesn't stack with TWF, and while knockout artist is good, it might be pushing too much. (now if this were gestalt I would run a monk/rogue god of unconscious death)

[darkwarriorkarg]

Alternative sap master:

Treant(Maple) monk.

[prototype00]

Rogue, scout/thug archetypes. Enforcer. Sap Master. Everytime you charge (or later, move 10ft) you do double sneak attack damage. Enemies will then run in fear if you make an intimidate check.

Ninja, Scout archetype. Sap Master. See above, minus the intimidate + invisivbility and later, greater invisibility.

Batter McShieldBash! They'll never see it coming.

prototype00

[Maxximilius]

I know no GM who allows the enforcer feat, as it provides a free debuff skill check whenever you hit someone. If it worked only on a critical hit, against a flat-footed target or to an attack action, it would be way more balanced.

[blackbloodtroll]

Maxximilius wrote:

I know no GM who allows the enforcer feat, as it provides a free debuff skill check whenever you hit someone. If it worked only on a critical hit, against a flat-footed target or to an attack action, it would be way more balanced.

So, a PC has to deal nonlethal, and make an additional check, but it's overpowered?

Do they realize that any touch spell can be delivered via Natural Attack, or Unarmed Strike? Some Debuff spells a touch attacks.

That's an attack, and a Debuff. No feats.

[Perfect Tommy]

I suggest try very hard to be undead or a construct: Something immune to nonlethal damage.

Then make your saps vicious (and or vicious/merciful on other weapons as needed).

[Maxximilius]

Nonlethal damage is a non-issue against a lot of enemies; as is the trivial Intimidate check, especially when you get a handful of them each round. Are you using the fact that some spells, which are limited daily ressources, can be delivered with a single attack roll after the required casting time to bebuff someone as a justification for someone being able to spam it on each attack during his round ? In this case, we may also have a feat dealing the effects of a scorching ray on each successful attack roll.
Start your flurry of blows and enjoy spamming -2 penalties to attack rolls and saving throws against everyone. The group's wizard will thank you. I maintain that this feat is overpowered as written and would remain plainly useful even with the suggested nerfs.

Oh, and I didn't even mention using a 17-20 merciful flail to spam the frightening condition at mid-level...

[Rycaut]

Indeed I'm looking at the Scout archetype as the most reliable means of getting flat-footed opponents.

Enforcer is indeed a great feat for this build (heck generally for any build that will be dealing non-lethal - could work great with a Whip based build as well as a sap master focused one)

Other options would be to take a level of Wizard (Diviner - likely foresight sub-school) to get the very nice "always acts in the surprise round" which means many more opportunities for flat-footed opponents. It would also mean a limited ability to cast useful 1st level spells such as Enlarge Person or Vanish (though the duration on Vanish wouldn't be useful if only 1st level). Enlarge Person however may be better as a potion.

The feat intensive but quite nice chain of feats involving Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses is indeed good. It in fact suggests taking 3-4 levels of a full BAB class w/bonus feats (i.e. likely fighter) which might also leave room for Weapon Specialization.

That implies 4-5 levels of fighter, the rest probably rogue (or ninja). Which could be a pretty strong character - though the full power of the sap master chain wouldn't happen for a while.

The only problem with the Scout archetype is that charging (or later moving 10') means generally only taking one attack - so at higher levels this means never getting the full potency of Sap Master via getting multiple attacks off on a flat-footed opponent (once you get Shatter Defenses going you might occasionally pull off multiple attacks).

Unless - to really get ugly you managed to also get Pounce... (which is hard to do with attacks that deal bludgeoning - most methods that get you to Pounce also involve slashing or piercing attacks...)

[Krodjin]

Here is a straight Ninja build I played around with in the past. I think it's viable, but it's certainly not optimal.

My plan was to make this Character for PFS play, but I haven't gotten around to it. I flip flop a lot on the possibility of Multi-classing. But here it is. Maybe you can tweak it into something good ( and let me know so I can do the same);

1) TWF, Human Bonus). Weapon Finesse
2) Trick: Improved Unarmed Strike
3) Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
4) Trick: Combat Trick (Sap Adept)
5) Sap Master or Dazzling Display
6) Trick: Vanishing Trick
7) Dazzling Display or Sap Master
8) Trick: ?
9) Shatter Defenses
10) Master Trick: Invisible Blade
11) Improved TWF
12) Master Trick: Unarmed Combat Mastery

The above is just "theory" to determine if I could fit all the feats in with the 12 level cap. Turns out you can, but you're burning talents for feats which is not a good trade in a lot of instances. In practice I would probably shift things so Vanishing Trick is taken at 2nd level. I just think it would be better to use that with Wakizashi's and take IUS later.

Monk is a viable dip for the various feats & saves. 2 levels of Ranger to get Power Attack without the STR prerequisites is also of consideration. Fighter goes without saying. For PFS I lean towards not Multi-classing to insure you actually get to use Invisible Blade (for a level or two anyhow). But for a non-PFS game I think the Multi-class options look more appealing.

A non DEX build would skip Weapon Finesse obviously and save a feat/talent there.

[Rycaut]

I'm thinking a STR build could be the way to go. I was planning on taking Bludgeoner and using a two-handed bludgeoning weapon. However to do this either requires a racial proficiency, a trait that somehow grants proficiencies or multiclassing to a class that grants the key proficiencies (ie likely a full BAB class)

But if I do that I save weapon finesse, TWF and improved unarmed strike. I likely still want weapon focus for my main weapon but it isn't crucial. Likely I would do two levels of something then at third level take rogue and take sap adept with my 3rd level feat.

[Krodjin]

There is a Shoanti "trait" that grants proficiency with Earthbreakers, Klars, Bolas and gives you a steed - it's in Varisia-Birthplace of Legends. I'll find out the name and report back.

Edit: it's called Shoanti Tattoo and also confers a +1 trait bonus to saves v. Fear effects. In addition to the proficiencies above.

Interestingly Google says its on the d20pfsrd as a regional trait but the page does not exist when you follow the link and a search of the regional traits doesn't turn it up. Not sure what that means...

[Ravingdork]

A viable sap master build.

[Kiinyan]

Ravingdork wrote:

A viable sap master build.

I love how this looks similar to mine. Nice putting it on paper. Just a few nit-picks I have with the build. It has 9 feats, but I can only account for 8 of them. 5 from levels (1,3,5,7,9).. 1 from human. 1 from the weapon focus rogue talent, and the other from the bonus combat feat. I don't know where the last one is. Also, I don't think you need quite so many bonuses to intimidate (intimidating prowess and skill focus? a bit overkill since the DC is a mere 10+HD+wis mod). Also, for all builds that take skill focus, take the human alternate that gives skill focus at 1st, 8th and 16th. In your case, that adds skill focus perception. You also seem to be one over on rogue talents. You have 6, but I only see 4 from levels (2,4,6,8) and 1 from the feat. For the record, I'm not remembering if the human favored class bonus gives and additional rogue talent, if so, my bad. One final thing. YOu have the sickened lasting 5 rounds, yet it should be 1/2 level round down, which is 4 for a 9th level character.

EDIT: Whoops just looked at what strong impression is. Ok that fixes the feat problem.

[Krodjin]

^i suspect that build was made pre-ARG. Hence no skill foci alternate.

[Kiinyan]

Krodjin wrote:

^i suspect that build was made pre-ARG. Hence no skill foci alternate.

I call shenanigans. Pre-ARG does not exist. It is a myth.

[Ravingdork]

I update the characters from my Crazy Character Emporium to include new materials regularly. I shall add her to my to-do list.

[WerePox47]

I built this guy for a worlds largest dungeon campaign a while back and although i never got to play him im pretty sure the gm would bonked my head for bringing such a thing to his table..

Human Vivisectionist 12

str-10
dex-16+2,+1 4th,+1 8th,+4belt = 24 or 30 with mutagen
con-14,+4 belt = 18 or 22 with mutagen
int-14,+4 headband = 18
wis-12 or 10 with mutagen
cha-7 or 5 with mutagen

feats:
H-weapon finesse
1st-two weapon fighting
3rd-sap adept
5th-craft wonderous
7th-sap master
9th-extra discovery
11th-improved twf

discoveries:
2nd-feral mutagen
4th-vestigial arm
6th-vestigial arm
8th-combine extract
9th-infuse mutagen
10th-crippling attack
12th-greater mutagen

traits:
indomitable will
one the gives acrobatics as class skill(cant rem name)

gear-110k wonderous at 1/2 price from craft wonderous
x2 +1 cold iron, agile, merciful light maces
agile amulet of mighty fists
+4 dex/con belt
+4 int headband
+5 cloak resist
boots of speed
celestial armor
x8 elixur of tumbling
potion of heroism CL(12th)
potion of greater magic fang +5
1000gp for additional mutagen

Idea is to let the vestigial arms to make ur melee attacks, while ur feral mutagen bite/claw/claw get natural attacks.. Hasted he gets 8 attacks a round at 12th level.. At 13th i was gonna take piranha strike.. Sap master is there just for the occasions where he went first and they were flat-footed, so piranha strike could have easily taken it place at the level..

[Dalewyn]

I did an Unchained Rogue: Makeshift Scrapper / Alchemist Vivisectionist / Moonshiner combo that gets sap master working by 5th lvl against anyone who can be bluffed. Not PFS legal, uses 3rd party rules.
This is for a Drow campaign, so I'm a drow; also would work well for a Halfling. Racial abilities, I swapped in the bonus to bluff check and stealth. Traits, I took Surprise Weapon (+2 to hit with improvised weapons) and Nonchalant Thuggery (+4 bluff)
For gear, I took an everfull Umbrite tankard. And "standard" rogue gear (buckler, mithral CS, etc)
Lvl 1: UR1: get catch off guard, throw anything, bludgeoner.
Lvl 2: UR2: take combat trick: Improved Catch off guard. Now you can sneak anyone who can be bluffed.
Lvl3: Al1: Moonshine stupor gives us great stat bonuses every fight. Feat: sap adept.
Lvl4: UR3: Finesse Training (Tankard)
Lvl5: UR4: fast getaway and sap master (at this point, 6d6 +6 + 1d4 + dex bonus; add 2d6 +2 if you enchant your improvised weapon with "ambush")

If I've made any mistakes or you have improvements, let me know.