Both lists are outdated and are lacking a bunch of monsters from Bestiaries 2 and 3.
Their excuse to not overwhelmed the GM and players with many monsters is bogus now. Why? Because of this. Yeah, this site, from Paizo themselves, has everything you need, including monsters that could added to the Summon lists.
Don't have the book with the new monster in question? A few clicks and you have it.
Seriously, with people using the Summoner class more, it would be more than fitting to update the list of monsters they can call.
I believe the reason they don't plan on updating the list (in the core rules) is so that the power level of the spell doesn't change. The only thing that's been added to it are the resolute and entropic entries in Bestiary 2. Apparently even the B2 elementals aren't intended to be summoned either.
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I'd love for all of the templated animals and vermin to be dropped from the summon monster list and replaced with CR equivalent outsiders and extraplanar subtyped magical beasts and stuff. Leaving animal / vermin summoning to the druids and summon nature's ally.
I never liked the idea that there were 'celestial badgers' running around up in the seven heavens, and I like it even less now that the celestial / fiendish / etc. templates don't have alignments, and the heavens and hells are now swarming with non-good / non-evil creatures.
Are there really herds of bison in heaven? Are there really celestial tyrannosaurus rexes chasing them down and eating them in heaven?
Are there really pods of fiendish porpoises in the seas of the abyss, swimming around chirping to each other nervously and getting scooped up and eaten by passing vrocks, living brutish terrible lives of unremitting horror?
Meh. Too surreal for my tastes. I want the inhabitants of the upper / lower / inner / outer planes to be weirder than that, and for heaven-critters to be more good-ish and hell-critters to be more evil-ish.
There isn't anything stopping you from updating the lists yourself.
In the GameMastery Guide the suggested approach is not to expand the list but to drop something for every one you add on to it. Adding more monsters to the lists will be a ramp up in power for those spells.
This.
One of the beauties of a tabletop RPG. You can change/tweak those lists all you like. I like making specific lists for different casters based on their alignments/cultures/origins so that each caster has a few different options and so that different casters are distinct from one another when it comes to summoning.
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The biggest problem with expanding Summon Lists in the Core is that they overwhelm the player quickly. Yep, not everybody has 12 years of 3.5 experience and time/ability to absorb 234 statblocks so that he or she always knows exactly which monster they want to summon. Really. Trust me.
Instead, there are thousands or more or less casual 3.5/PF players, who make up the bulk of fanbase. They have hard time enough with the core lists. They sit there for 10 minutes trying to decide between shark, squid, dolphin and octopus (case in point from recent Skull'n'Shackles game). And now you want to have them swamped with dozens of additional choices?
Not to mention, they usually turn to me for advice in this case, which means that I, a typical overburdened 3.5 GM, would have to wrangle even more statblocks so that I can actually handle a sudden Swipespire Sharddoomslasher that appears out of literal and metaphorical nowhere.
No thanks. If you want expanded lists, the community has got you covered.
One way to cap the power level and still have expanded lists is to have each spell call the same critter(s) every time it is cast by that character -- there's a note to this effect in the 3.0 DMG, IIRC. In other words, if Bogbor knows summon monster I, ahead of time he would have had to have picked out the critter it summoned, and written down its stat block for reference.
This method increases prep time (looking through a potentially infinite number of choices for each preparation of the spell), but speeds up play a LOT because you've only got one set of stat blocks pre-loaded, and don't need to look up others.
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I usually game with impatient people, whose precious and too-scarce hours per month of gaming time is carefully doled out by their spouses / children / jobs / limited time interfacing with this spacetime dimension / otherworldly pacts with cruel infernal masters. We generally don't allow anyone to summon something they didn't already have the stats for (usually written on a Game Mechanics monster card). Saves us this sort of hassle. We've tried to carry that over to prepping spell cards or even item cards, based on how handy that was in Warhammer Quest, having a specific card for every spell you know or item you carry, but that was a bridge too far and there was rebellion!
Anywho, my initial comment was replacing 'template' animals on the lists with actual *monsters,* so it wouldn't add to the number of critters on the list, only replace them, so the 'takes more time' argument probably wasn't directed at me anyway.
I'd love for all of the templated animals and vermin to be dropped from the summon monster list and replaced with CR equivalent outsiders and extraplanar subtyped magical beasts and stuff. Leaving animal / vermin summoning to the druids and summon nature's ally.
I agree. I'd love to see more "monsters" on the monster lists.
Are there really herds of bison in heaven? Are there really celestial tyrannosaurus rexes chasing them down and eating them in heaven?
I don't know the Golarion cosmology, but if it's like the old D&D stuff there are herds of celestial bison roaming the Happy Hunting Grounds:)
The biggest problem with expanding Summon Lists in the Core is that they overwhelm the player quickly.
Rather than a numeric expansion (aside from Summon Monster VIII, which only has 3 entries) I'd love to see a general audit. I think it would help if some of the chaff were removed. There are low-level summons with over 15-25 choices available!
The reason I ask for an update is because:
- barely any good outsider on the list
- limited to demons and devils only when it comes to evil outsiders
- no true lawful, true chaotic or true neutral outsider
- elementals get "priorized" because you can summon any 6 of their size, from any element
I mean, how hard is it to add at the end of each outsider entry: "This creature can be summoned by the Summon Monster [##] spell"?
Update them on my own? I could... but I need a foolproof rule of thumb, like "Summon Monster can get any outsider between CR ## and CR ##". Give me a CR range or something. What if I want to [greatly] expand the Summon Monster VIII list? What creatures can I add to make it balanced?
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I usually game with impatient people, whose precious and too-scarce hours per month of gaming time is carefully doled out by their spouses / children / jobs / limited time interfacing with this spacetime dimension / otherworldly pacts with cruel infernal masters. We generally don't allow anyone to summon something they didn't already have the stats for (usually written on a Game Mechanics monster card). Saves us this sort of hassle. We've tried to carry that over to prepping spell cards or even item cards, based on how handy that was in Warhammer Quest, having a specific card for every spell you know or item you carry, but that was a bridge too far and there was rebellion!
Anywho, my initial comment was replacing 'template' animals on the lists with actual *monsters,* so it wouldn't add to the number of critters on the list, only replace them, so the 'takes more time' argument probably wasn't directed at me anyway.
You can do that with Herolab, printing the full ability list and the whole list of spells available to you.
It become a "bit" unwieldy with cleric and druids. as 35 pages of spells descriptions for a 4th level cleric are a consistent bundle.Herolab is handy in printing the statblocks of the summoned cutters too, with the appropriate templates when needed.
Doing that for 8-16 monsters for each level of the spell is a thing, doing it for all the possible monster would require plenty of time.
Ah hah! I wasn't 100% if the reasoning I gave was the reason, so I looked into it. Apparently I got the answer from a question I asked.
Am I allowed to read into his statement about create undead and apply the same logic to Summon Monster / Summon Nature's Ally, such that they can't be used to summon Bestiary 2 elementals?I'm sure that's the intent, otherwise that's just doing an end-around the "we're not adding new monsters to the summon lists because that makes the summoning spells more powerful with each monster book" design decision.
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Update them on my own? I could... but I need a foolproof rule of thumb, like "Summon Monster can get any outsider between CR ## and CR ##". Give me a CR range or something. What if I want to [greatly] expand the Summon Monster VIII list? What creatures can I add to make it balanced?
That's easy enough;
SM I - 8 summons, 6 of them CR 1/2, 2 of them CR 1/3, so 1/2 is a safe betSM II - 10 critters, 9 of them CR 1, 1 of them CR 1/2 (the poisonous centipede), so CR 1 is fine, although creatures with effects that might last long after they're gone (like poisonous creatures) might be limited to CR 1/2
SM III - 15 summons, all CR 2
SM IV - 15 summons, 10 CR 3, 5 CR 4 (more GM thinking involved here, choosing CR 4's carefully to avoid those with a bunch of SLAs or long-term effects like poison or ability damage or whatever)
SM V - 12 summons, 5 CR 5, 7 CR 6 (again, try to pick the 'better' CR 5's and not pick the 'bestest' CR 6's)
SM VI - 12 summons, 8 CR 6, 4 CR 7 (note that 3 of the 4 heavy SLA users are the lower CR 6, and of the CR 7's, one of them is aquatic, possibly limiting it's utility)
SM VII - 11 gumbies, 9 CR 9, 2 CR 10 (only two CR 10's, and neither have much in the way of SLAs or kewl supernatural abilities)
SM VIII - only 3 critters!, all CR 11, none of them good (and thus none of them benefitting from Sacred Summons or similar effects. Number one candidate to add more critters! CR 11 angels, archons, azatas, whatever would make sense to go here, or perhaps even a CR 12 creature without a crazy good selection of SLAs, based on the previous levels precedent of having two CRs in one Summon Monster level.)
SM IX - 6 critters, 3 CR 13, 3 CR 14.
Replace critters with CR appropriate options as needed. If you check out the PFSRD, it's entirely possible to make a thematic summon monster list entirely out of *birds*, let alone something more 'common' like insects/arthropods, or reptiles/snakes/lizards/frogs/dinosaurs, or plant creatures, or undead, or aberrations, or dragons (well, okay, your 'summon dragon 1' list is gonna have stuff like 'double extra young tatzelwurm, 1d3 kobolds or half-dragon housecat' on it, but ya gotta start small!).
It's probably always gonna be best to have the GM do this sort of thing, barring 'theme' lists. Even a 'theme' list that has some awesome critters on it (like shadows, on an undead 'theme' list) is also going to be limited, and the GM will be able to use more generic counters (such as energy channeling undead commanding evil clerics!).
A player list with no limiting 'theme' may end up having cherry-picked 'awesome' monsters from all over the place, and be much harder to counter, and much less internally balanced by type limitations or whatever. (For instance, an all dinosaur list is going to lack anything at all in the way of cool SLAs, while an all demon list is going to be much more easily stymied by anti-chaos/anti-evil effects, or enemies that have favored enemy X or bane arrows of Y, or Alignment Channel: Jerk.)
A non-theme list that has a combination of (arguably) under-CR'd dragons, SLA heavy outsiders and incorporeal undead is likely to be a balance nightmare.
Ah hah! I wasn't 100% if the reasoning I gave was the reason, so I looked into it. Apparently I got the answer from a question I asked.
Am I allowed to read into his statement about create undead and apply the same logic to Summon Monster / Summon Nature's Ally, such that they can't be used to summon Bestiary 2 elementals?I'm sure that's the intent, otherwise that's just doing an end-around the "we're not adding new monsters to the summon lists because that makes the summoning spells more powerful with each monster book" design decision.
Are we to understand this statement to mean, "Add to the Summon Monster lists if you want to."?
Chief Technical Officer
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Are we to understand this statement to mean, "Add to the Summon Monster lists if you want to."?
Sure... inasmuch as we encourage you to change any aspect of the game to suit your own needs (outside of Pathfinder Society Organized Play, of course).
Just be aware that adding to those lists is effectively increasing the relative power level of the summon spells, and increasing the complexity for players who use them, which is something we ourselves have deliberately chosen not to do.
Update them on my own? I could... but I need a foolproof rule of thumb, like "Summon Monster can get any outsider between CR ## and CR ##". Give me a CR range or something. What if I want to [greatly] expand the Summon Monster VIII list? What creatures can I add to make it balanced?That's easy enough;
SM I - 8 summons, 6 of them CR 1/2, 2 of them CR 1/3, so 1/2 is a safe bet
SM II - 10 critters, 9 of them CR 1, 1 of them CR 1/2 (the poisonous centipede), so CR 1 is fine, although creatures with effects that might last long after they're gone (like poisonous creatures) might be limited to CR 1/2
SM III - 15 summons, all CR 2
SM IV - 15 summons, 10 CR 3, 5 CR 4 (more GM thinking involved here, choosing CR 4's carefully to avoid those with a bunch of SLAs or long-term effects like poison or ability damage or whatever)
SM V - 12 summons, 5 CR 5, 7 CR 6 (again, try to pick the 'better' CR 5's and not pick the 'bestest' CR 6's)
SM VI - 12 summons, 8 CR 6, 4 CR 7 (note that 3 of the 4 heavy SLA users are the lower CR 6, and of the CR 7's, one of them is aquatic, possibly limiting it's utility)
SM VII - 11 gumbies, 9 CR 9, 2 CR 10 (only two CR 10's, and neither have much in the way of SLAs or kewl supernatural abilities)
SM VIII - only 3 critters!, all CR 11, none of them good (and thus none of them benefitting from Sacred Summons or similar effects. Number one candidate to add more critters! CR 11 angels, archons, azatas, whatever would make sense to go here, or perhaps even a CR 12 creature without a crazy good selection of SLAs, based on the previous levels precedent of having two CRs in one Summon Monster level.)
SM IX - 6 critters, 3 CR 13, 3 CR 14.
That... helps a lot :O ! Thank you :)
Replace critters with CR appropriate options as needed. If you check out the PFSRD, it's entirely possible to make a thematic summon monster list entirely out of *birds*, let alone something more 'common' like insects/arthropods, or reptiles/snakes/lizards/frogs/dinosaurs, or plant creatures, or undead, or aberrations, or dragons (well, okay, your 'summon dragon 1' list is gonna have stuff like 'double extra young tatzelwurm, 1d3 kobolds or half-dragon housecat' on it, but ya gotta start small!).
That does give me a good idea for the Summon Undead spell from Libris Mortis if I could convert them to Pathfinder as a spell with 9 versions instead of 5.
As for dragon, well considering that each and every dragon Paizo has published has the same 3 age categories (young, adult, ancient), I could make the following spells:
5th-level Summon Young Dragon (1 young dragon)
7th-level Summon Adult Dragon (1 adult dragon or 2 young dragons)
9th-level Summon Ancient Dragon (1 ancient dragon, 2 adult dragons or 3 young dragons)
My main concern is that I can't summon a Daemon, an Agathion, a Prothean, an Aeon, a Rakshasa, an Inevitable, a Quippoth, an Asura, a Demodand, a Div, a Kami, a Kyton or an Oni with the Summon Monster spells. That's why I think they should update it, even if they need to add a rule that spellcasters must select 3 monsters to summon with those spells at preparation.
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You could even go in a Pokemon direction and say that each Summon spell comes with a monster, and you must research additional monsters, or directly encounter them and / or even defeat them and 'bind' them.
Another limiting option (suggested in Unearthed Arcana, a book that offered tons of options for various classes, including the high-larious notion that Wizards and Druids were too weak and should get a free Domain and set of bonus domain spells, on top of their current abilities, and yet offered *multiple* solutions to tone down the OP horror that was the Summon Monster list!) would be to have each summoned monster *be a specific individual,* and, if slain, having to replace it somehow.
That would be a very 'magic-y' way of working it, with the spellcaster having to research and 'bind' various creatures, so that he can call upon them later, rather than just being able to conjure any of an infinite number of nameless and replaceable mephits or elementals or whatever. He could certainly have three different fire elementals bound, so that if one died, he wouldn't be 'fire elemental-less,' (or if he used a higher level spell, he could summon 1d3 of them!), but he'd have to go through the effort of 'binding' them individually.
Whether that involves a cheaper, faster version of 'spell research,' easily handled with a few roles during down time or when 'leveling up,' to summon and 'bind' the critter, or he can do it on a defeated creature, or what, would be up to the GM, depending on how much 'balance' he wants, and how much extra work he wants to put the player (and himself, since he's the one who has to run this stuff!) through.
- no true lawful, true chaotic or true neutral outsider\
This! My CN characters would very much like the ability to summon Proteans!
Like Set said, they all pretty much fall into CR ranges, so updating them isn't too bad. Also, this.
Still, an official update would be pretty cool, imo.
Edit:
My main concern is that I can't summon a Daemon, an Agathion, a Prothean, an Aeon, a Rakshasa, an Inevitable, a Quippoth, an Asura, a Demodand, a Div, a Kami, a Kyton or an Oni with the Summon Monster spells.
And yes, these are cool too.
I would recommend looking into how, I believe it was, Unearthed Arcana recommends. Each spells level has a CR limit and each character builds their own list of creatures they can summon.
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I would recommend looking into how, I believe it was, Unearthed Arcana recommends. Each spells level has a CR limit and each character builds their own list of creatures they can summon.
Some of them are, IMO, over the top restrictive, but balance is in the eye of the beholder. And beholders aren't OGL, so back off!
Actually do to the way the IP Laws are one could use the Stat Block and description just so long as it isn't called a Beholder. Same with the Mind Flayer.
Strangely, it allows you to take the Stat Blocks give them the others name and print them.
But that is the system I was talking about.