Tumbling's a nonsense skill at the best of times. Next time you're in a fight, try doing a forward roll at your opponent and see what happens...
I always figured you wern't necessarily tumbling, but were instead using your wickid acrobatics skill to just generally move around them the best way you see fit without opening your guard.
Maybe they figure you have to have those boots that give you +5 acrobatics to give you an edge if you're going to be doing it a lot.
Tumbling's a nonsense skill at the best of times. Next time you're in a fight, try doing a forward roll at your opponent and see what happens...
I tend to picture it as acrobatics in general. Flipping, ducking, weaving, what have you. Just whatever you do to get past an opponent and evade an attack.
Anyway, I agree that the DC to tumble is pretty rough. The problem is mostly that CMD scales way better than Acrobatics.
A rogue maxing acrobatics every level is equivalent to a same HD creature with full BAB progression.
A rogue can add Dex to acrobatics, while an enemy adds Str and Dex and Size modifier.
The only thing acrobatics has going for it is if it's a class skill for +3. Otherwise, you need items to boost it any higher.
It's not entirely hopeless, but not really promising for a rogue later on, even if maxed.
Also, ninja!
|
I disagree with the basic assumption:
"We should not have to invest in magical items, or spend feats to use a skill for it's main purpose."
Being capable of maneuvering without exposing yourself is a thing that require a lot of training in our world. So it should require a serious investment.
The OP math? a chain shirt weight 25 lbs and give a -2 to the acrobatic skill, so he is already choosing to be penalized. A masterwork chain would reduce that by 1 point,
The only argument with some basis is that the size modifier shouldn't matter when trying to avoid a AoO.
I don't know if that was directed at me or not, but I'm not saying that you shouldn't need to invest in feats or such to get use out of the skill. The main issue I have with it is that, all things being more or less even, acrobatics needs a lot of work to stay viable while the defense against it does not.
One skill rank every level, to keep it even to HD. Easily matched by the BAB progression of a lot of enemies. At the very least, they'll probably have 3/4 progression if you're actually worried about AoO's so they're at least matching you 75% without any investment.
You can add your Dex mod on your roll, they add both their Dex and Strength mod. You can expect that enemies you want to avoid probably have fairly large strength scores, probably enough to rival your dexterity, meaning their dex and size bonuses, on top of that, are mostly in their favor.
So, in the most basic sense, it is relatively skewed in the defender's favor even if our hypothetical rogue is doing a lot to keep it viable.
As I said though, I don't think it's terrible at high levels, and I understand that someone wanting to really put it to use might want to boost it with some things. But if they need to do so in order to have any realistic chance of succeeding, then it seems a bit off.
Just my opinion though, of course.
Well Skill Focus grants +3 [+6 at level 10]. There are a number of cheap items that grant +5 bonuses.
That's +8 at level 4-5.
Maybe there should be a Feat called Advanced Acrobatics where you pick either tumble, high or long jump and gain a +5 bonus to that type.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There's no reason the system dynamics should stay constant through the game. If at first level you have 75% success rate and at 20th level you have 75% success rate then nothing has changed. What was the point of going up levels again?
See also: trip. It does work better against humanoids than against, say, dragons. This is perfectly reasonable behaviour.
Well, the point of going up levels isn't to get worse. It's one of those things that makes me shy away from the rogue, even though I like the idea of it.
|
I think there is something to be said for the idea that the highest CR enemies should be tough to tumble around. Just like the way they are going to be protected with SR, DR, energy resistance, and a host of other defensive abilities to negate and counter high level fighters and wizard. Why shouldn't they be capable of negating an important rogue tactic?
Big monsters with massive Str scores do have high CMD, but that is how they are suppose to be. Someone dedicated to Acrobatics can still hit the mark. Other enemies of comparable CR would not be so high. A 20th level fighter's Str should be about the same as a 20th level rogue's Dex and he might not have much Dex to add to CMD and the +3 bonus for a class skill should even that out. The rogue can pick up plenty of feats and items to boost his acrobatics higher than the fighter can increase his CMD.
Remember that acrobatics is also tied to jumping. Jumping is only limited by your movement. A couple campaigns ago I had a barbarian leaping whole encounters to get behind the monsters.
I think the DCs are fine; sometimes too low. It basically just depends on your character. If you're going to use the skill significantly, like the barbarian above, then you'll have a high dex bonus and feats/traits/items that augment this further. Said barbarian, at level 1, was walking around with a +8 to his rolls. In one combat he needed to leap past a wererat and it's dire rat minions to get onto a cart and he didn't want the AoO; he needed a 9 on a D20 to pull that off.
Over half the time he'd make that roll, without any buffs, feats, or items. That's not bad.
|
I actually think that it should only be easy to tumble around opponents IF you spend max points and optimize as such. if you are expecting the average rogue to tumble past the fighter type 75% of the time, then you better expect the same from the enemy. Average is just that, average. I do think, however, that an opponents armor check penalty should effect their CMD against things like acrobatics checks, which require speed and finesse.
Stuff that works at low levels (trip etc.) doesn't work so much at high levels... players have to learn more stuff... its meant to be harder the higher up you go, isn't it?Well, the point of going up levels isn't to get worse. It's one of those things that makes me shy away from the rogue, even though I like the idea of it.There's no reason the system dynamics should stay constant through the game. If at first level you have 75% success rate and at 20th level you have 75% success rate then nothing has changed. What was the point of going up levels again?
See also: trip. It does work better against humanoids than against, say, dragons. This is perfectly reasonable behaviour.
Sure, but with that in mind, nobody should ever take feats to be good at that sort of thing unless they know the campaign will cut out early, or if you're a fighter who can re-train them. It's a pain to have feats that are a waste, especially in a game as unbalanced as Pathfinder. The guy next to me would be doing way better, and I'd just feel crappy.
Tumbling's a nonsense skill at the best of times. Next time you're in a fight, try doing a forward roll at your opponent and see what happens...
In real world, yes. However, in real world if a poisonous mamba bite you, you die, while a high level fighter just shrug off his shoulders, and in real life you can't climb in full plate, or survive falling from the empire state. Fortunatelly, this game does not try to simulate the boring real life, but a fantasy world, and in fantasy world, tumbling around enemies without being hit is both a staple, and fun as hell.
To the OP, the biggest offender IMHO is that size is a BONUS to avoid being tumbled. I can see why I can't push an elephant around, but I don't understand why I can't tumble around him. Being big and strong doesn't make you to have better reflexes, but in the game, it does, as it increases your CMD (and there's only one kind of CMD, not one for strength-based maneouvers such as bull rush, and another one for wit-based maneouvers, such as tumble or dirty trick -throwing sand to the eyes or the like-)
|
idea!
CMD is simple and brilliant. lets not change it.
but, Acrobatics is a special circumstance. the OP is right about heavily armored and large creatures (look at the hobbits Merry and Pippin as they clumsily stumble under the legs of armored orcs, horses, and cave trolls!)
to middleground simplicity and simulation, (and to make rogues and halflings cooler again!), this house rule therefore changes the Acrobatics roll, not the CMD.
:
When using Acrobatics to move through the threatened or occupied squares of a creature wearing armor, you may take it's ACP (armor check penalty) as a positive circumstance bonus to your skill check.
When using Acrobatics to move through the threatened or occupied squares of a larger creature, you may take a +4 circumstance bonus to your skill check per size category difference.
When using Acrobatics to move through the threatened or occupied squares of a smaller creature, you take a -4 circumstance penalty to your skill check per size category difference.
Just houserule a new DC. The last time this topic came up, DC = 10+BAB+Dex modifier or 10+Acrobatics seemed to work really well.
-Matt
Agaisnt someone of similar skill level, that doesn't really happen. Against a mook, then yeah... watch any clips of RJJ when he was good for decent examples (There was a time where the whole world counted as mooks for Roy.While I agree that "Tumbling" is nonsense even in normal human martial arts you can manage to do something like grabbing a guys arm pulling him off balance and then pivoting so that you end up behind him without giving him a good chance to hit you, right?
Sure it isn't tumbling as we'd classify it but since the skills are pretty amorphous in their application because otherwise the game system would be an unholy b&%@@ to use I figure it should just slide. Also you could totally tumble past something of sufficient size or at least dive into a roll past it's legs.
I think your point can be further ilustrated with Pernell Whitaker
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Tumble was not broken in 3E.
In 3E, class skills actually meant something, and it was a rare skill to get in-class. Those that got it (monk, rogue, bard, and others in non-core) were intended to be skirmishing type characters, or capable of it. In return for not being strong/tough enough to hang in melee like a fighter could. They relied on tumble to get into position and escape in order to not die horribly.
Then Pathfinder went and decided to make tumble suicidally hard. Because being able to move without provoking is broken. Unless you're a spellcaster. PF introduced a bunch of spells to move or short range teleport without provoking. It's only broken when the rogue and monk do it.
No. I have a 17th level wizard in a 3.5 game. She has a whopping +6 dex and 7 ranks in tumble (which cost me 14 skill points) and I only just barely have the +14* to make it automatic. Well, automatic when there's only one enemy to tumble past, and there's no situational modifiers like an uneven floor. I have failed the check several times.
Tumble's easiness in 3.5 is possibly the most exaggerated statement about that edition there is. Not every DM allows you to make up a magic item to boost a skill check beyond what is already in print (note in 3E jump was a separate skill; the boots of striding and springing only benefited the jump skill, not jump/balance/tumble).
*The other +1 is from a stone of good luck, if you were curious
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think CMD is built out of the correct components against many maneuvers, but against Acrobatics, not entirely.
I'd like to see Armor Check Penalty figured into it somewhere; if you wear heavy armor you're gonna be a bit slower, harder to snag that rogue creeping around you.
Maybe likewise for Strength; how does Strength really help in this?
CMD is mainly built with an idea of being stable, hard to push around, so Strength normally adds to it. But if it's a question of being fast enough to snag someone that's not really appropriate.
Armor affects CMD thru Max Dex... or at least if that's considered a penalty to AC, which is seems to be by my account.
|
|
Hmm, that's a good point. Armor does somewhat limit MaxDex, so it's already factored in.
I don't really want to take size out of the equation; a big monster generally has longer reach and all that, which might be helpful in squashing annoying rogues trying to run around.
Maybe if you just took Strength out of the equation?
If you want to be able to tumble then work at it.
Have the DEX of 18 +4
Spend 2 feat Acrobatic and Skill focus Acrobatic +5
Make sure it is class skill for you +3
Spend the rank 1.
This give you a +13 at level 1.
This will beat any CR 1 monster CMD on roll of 1 or 2.
At level 5 with spending 4 more ranks 2.5k GP and DEX item of 4k well with in GP limt. of 5th level PC you total is 23 This will beat most CR 5 monster but CR 5 elementals.
At level 10 with 5 more ranks the bonus form the feat gose form +5 to +10 and DEX item of +4 12k gp more and Base DEX of +20 give you a total of 34 this beat all CR 10 but on 1 but Brachiosaurus wich it beat on 6.
So tumble work in all these cases till you add in mod of figs that add +2 this DC for each of them.
Then play smart. Clear out the trash on the battel field.
New feat
Under foot: Add a bonus equal to +2 for each size smaller that you are than target that you are trying to tumble past.
I think you're looking at it wrong: tumbling should be a last resort option. Those more likely to use tumble in combat are the ones that really should have and should be using other means to get into position; this includes stealth and/or a superior movement speed.
My opinion, of course.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Hmm, that's a good point. Armor does somewhat limit MaxDex, so it's already factored in.
I don't really want to take size out of the equation; a big monster generally has longer reach and all that, which might be helpful in squashing annoying rogues trying to run around.
Maybe if you just took Strength out of the equation?
I'm not sure max dex limit CMD. It doesn't limit REF save throws for example.
If you want to be able to tumble then work at it.
Have the DEX of 18 +4
Spend 2 feat Acrobatic and Skill focus Acrobatic +5
Make sure it is class skill for you +3
Spend the rank 1.
This give you a +13 at level 1.
This will beat any CR 1 monster CMD on roll of 1 or 2.
At level 5 with spending 4 more ranks 2.5k GP and DEX item of 4k well with in GP limt. of 5th level PC you total is 23 This will beat most CR 5 monster but CR 5 elementals.
At level 10 with 5 more ranks the bonus form the feat gose form +5 to +10 and DEX item of +4 12k gp more and Base DEX of +20 give you a total of 34 this beat all CR 10 but on 1 but Brachiosaurus wich it beat on 6.
So tumble work in all these cases till you add in mod of figs that add +2 this DC for each of them.
Then play smart. Clear out the trash on the battel field.New feat
Under foot: Add a bonus equal to +2 for each size smaller that you are than target that you are trying to tumble past.
Sure, at low level tumble works. It's at high levels when it chokes.
I like Rainzax's idea about applying the defender's ACP to their CMD vs. tumble, but I think that's a little too much bookkeeping being added, and does nothing against all those monsters whose AC comes from natural armor.
How about: Defenders' size modifier and Str do not apply to their CMD vs. Acrobatics? You have to be quick to catch someone, and larger creatures are already gaining an advantage through reach.
Conversely, and more easily, Acrobatics could simply be opposed by CMB--the defender has to make a roll, so even monsters that seriously out-class the Acrobatics bonus you have may fail if they roll a 1 and you roll a 20.
Highest CMD I could find for a CR20 creature is 63, with the average being around 55.
+20 ranks
+3 class
+10 stat
+10 item (10,000gp)
+10 feats (Acrobatic, Skill Focus)+53 total
Against the average CR20 you have a 5% chance to fail.
Skip the feats and you can buy a +20 skill item for 40,000gp. Cheaper if you get multiple items of lesser enhancement from different sources. (ie. competence, sacred, luck, profane)
Tumbling is not hard and doesn't need to change.
The fact that you need +10 in feats and +10 in items to do it is the best proof you could post to show it's way too hard.
A rogue with dex 30 (!!!!) and 20 (!!!!) ranks in acrobatics, will fail any acrobatic roll against an apropiate CR even if he rolls a 19. Anyone who isn't a full geared DEX char with max ranks, feats, and specific items, can't even try to tumble.