I'd say some balance checks would be in order
|
Is it possible to have the party archer stand on a tenser's floating disk, and have the party mage move the disk around the battle field ( thus moving the archer), while the archer takes a full round action and shoots with his bow?
Thanks.
Does this grant any benefit that a mount would not?
I would simply apply the mounted combat rules using acrobatics where appropriate.
I don't think I have too much of a problem with allowing this for ranged attacks, but if he wants to make melee attacks then I'd limit them to one, the same as if he rode his horse over to an enemy to strike at him.
|
|
Applying Mounted Combat rules, a character would be restricted to a single melee attack if the disk moved more than 5 feet, but would be able to full attack with ranged weapons.
As per mounted combat rules, penalties would apply to ranged attacks if the person controlling the disk double moved or ran.
Control is a non-issue: the person riding has none.
If the archer had a readied action, I would allow him to attack at any point during the caster's movement, just as a mounted archer can attack at any point during his mounts movement.
There are similar rules in place for casting while mounted. Use them.
How is there a balance problem? Using the pathfinder version of the spell limits the disks range to 5 feet from the caster, and it follows him around, so you're stuck with him. If you're using other versions of the spell it's either a move action or a standard action for the caster to move the disk, so you're simply taking an action away from the caster and providing it to the archer (which is often less beneficial than the archer just standing still and the caster being able to use actions to, well, cast).
It has been defined that the caster can move the Floating Disk as a move action rather than move themselves (this has become the default for any spell that doesn't otherwise specify). Because it's the caster's move action, not the passenger, the passenger can make their full attack.
So, one move action, you can move the passenger 30' (20' if you're a slow moving sorcerer/wizard), and they can do a full attack from higher ground (3' off the ground).
Keep in mind that they don't get a choice in where they move. It's not that horribly broken or overpowered by the time the fighter gets iteratives and the spell has the capacity to carry them (3rd or 4th level for a two weapon fighter, 6th for any other variety). I suppose you could do it for a Monk at 2nd.
It also cannot carry a Large fighter (the disk is too small).
It also cannot carry the caster themselves.
I've used this trick a fair bit - I've got a Sorcerer who also has Magical Lineage: Magic Missile and Spontaneous Metafocus: Magic Missile, who fires a salvo of Toppling Magic Missiles as a standard action, and moves the friendly fighter over to whichever target is prone to attack them.
(He also uses a Metamagic Rod of Reach Spell to ensure that the Floating Disk Spell has a nice useful range....)
Why do some people insist on penalizing creativity and imagination?
Because It's A Game. With Rulz! That MUST Be Read As Talmudic Purity!
Note that this way of reading of the rulebook never seems to apply when the person insisting on it wants to have a male Paladin with a bonded mount or weapon, or a Male Cleric who channels...
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It has been defined that the caster can move the Floating Disk as a move action rather than move themselves (this has become the default for any spell that doesn't otherwise specify).
Interesting ruling. You have a link to that?
As I read the spell it can be directed to stay at more than 5' from you (up to close range) but beside increasing the range between the disk and you can't direct it (i.e. you can't make it move 10' ahead, then 20' on the right).
The spell only allows you to move loads. Inanimate objects.
?
loads =/= inanimate objectsOne of the classical uses is to use it to transport your critically wounded comrades.
The idea that you can just summon a floating disk beneath someone, direct it and move that person with no saving though, no grapple check. That's just a bit too much to ask for a 1st level spell with an hours long duration.
It appear at "approximately 3 feet above the ground" so it can't pick up someone.
It has no grappling attack or other way to entrap someone when it form, so he can't grab someone when appearing.It has a structure "a slightly concave, circular plane of force that follows you about and carries loads for you. The disk is 3 feet in diameter and 1 inch deep at its center." so it occupy a space. I would say that you can't conjure it in a occupied space.
So it can't move a person against his will unless that person has stepped on the disk or was forced on it.
Just saying, if we're still refering to 'Tenser's Floating Disk', there was a greater version in Spell Compendium that has much more flexibility.
Squeezing rules would apply.
I would also have the Rider suffer the penalties of riding a Mount if it moved.
Also remember that the Wizard can only move as fast as the Wizards Base Speed even if the Wizard Withdraws/Runs.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Unless the Caster explicitly tells the disk otherwise. Just like it can float lower than 3 feet but not higher.
I remember a thread about two wizards both trying to make a running start, then leaping on each others floating disks. If the disks follow the wizards and wizard a was on wizard b's disk and vicea versa, would they continue to move?
was hilarious
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
People have been trying to use floating disk as an artillery platform for decades now so don't start trying to claim creativity or imagination. It's a trick as old as having an unseen servant put a portal hole in a bag of holding.
That said I don't see any reason to disallow it. It barely provides any real useful benefit 90% of the time, eats up some of the Wizard's actions and obviously is subject to at the barest minimum a DC 5 acrobatics check. I'd add on some penalties since unlike with a mount your not really clinging to the disk and it'd be pretty easy to have it yanked out from under you while your not expecting it.
@Pendagast: I know of that thread... I think I even posted on it.
@Morgen: It is a fairly old concept isn't it...
As I said use the Squeezing Rules. Though a DC 5 Acrobatics check would work to maybe let you negate the Squeezing Rules.
Fluff it as you finding a good footing as it moves and such.
Though if you really wanna be cruel put them in a 5 foot high room. Hard to ride a disk hovering 3 feet above the ground. Of course it can probably lower the altitude of the Disk but then you run into other problems.
wasnt this spell intended to move the TONS of gold you originally found in 1E hoardes that no longer exist any more? Does this spell actually HAVE a real use now?
I can say however, everytime I read a treasure list now, I look at the coin and STILL go is that IT? Where is the treasure? this is someones pocket change!
Disappointed every time....
this would be the same rules as an archer on a chariot I would think
Gold is still pretty heavy. In my experience, people ignore the weight involved with gold. 1000 gold pieces weighs 100 pounds. A mid level gold haul can be thousands of pounds.wasnt this spell intended to move the TONS of gold you originally found in 1E hoardes that no longer exist any more? Does this spell actually HAVE a real use now?
I can say however, everytime I read a treasure list now, I look at the coin and STILL go is that IT? Where is the treasure? this is someones pocket change!
Disappointed every time....
5000 gp in 100 pounds.
And I tend to give the cash as a reward rather than Items...
Though I tend to use Paper Currency... And less Loot and more Mission Rewards...
|
Thank you all for your thoughts.
I cant say that it was my idea.....but the idea is to have an archer (fighter ranger it doesn't matter stand on a Tenser's Floating Disk, ( Yes I know Paizo can't use Tenser and it's Wotc's IP) and make his full attacks, which is a full round action. Wizard moves the Archer around, by moving the Floating disc.
I don't seem to remember any melee weapons were involved.
I guess you are right, this would be a tactic to use when the archer gains access to rapid shot, and gains iterative attacks.
I do think the spell was created to carry treasure hauls. lots of gold pieces.
Oddly Floating Disk, Secret Chest, and a few other spells were created to serve as "Logistic" spells.
I.E.: Loot Transportation.
I wonder would Create Demiplane work for Treasure Horde Hauling... say have a ethod o transfering the gold into it via a Portable Opening to it or some magical item kinda thing.
|
|
Just to point it out:
Direct or Redirect a Spell
Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell requires a move action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity or require concentration.
I found questionable to equate setting distance at which the disk float from you to redirecting the area of effect of a spell.
On the other hand the spell say: "If not otherwise directed, it maintains a constant interval of 5 feet between itself and you." and "It floats along horizontally within spell range and will accompany you at a rate of no more than your normal speed each round.", so all you can do is to set the distance at which the disk follow you, nothing more. You can't move it in a different direction.It is a carry on luggage with an adjustable tether, not a remote controlled forklift.
|
I've never actually seen this used, even in PFS, but I'm waiting for it. As a GM, I'd say it requires a climb check to get on one (DC 10) and an acrobatics check to not fall off each round it moved (DC 5, seems kinda low, but when you combine a low dex with heavy armor, this could pose a severe problem), and the character on it provokes AoOs when it moves. Other than that, it's a great tactic that allows the character on it to make full attacks and attack from higher ground.
Doesn't the higher ground rules only come into effect if it is 5ft higher...
Wait does Pathfinder even have Higher Ground Rules for Ranged Combat?
Ok then...
It has higher ground rules for mounted combat. You gain the benefit of higher ground when making a melee attack against an opponent if your mount is at least one size category larger.
I doubt Floating disk would grant this benefit. It is only elevated by three feet..
The rules don't suggest any minimum height needed for higher ground, and do give the bonus to someone outside an irrigation ditch attacking someone inside such a ditch.
And strictly speaking, the rules state you get the bonus while mounted as long as the target on foot is "smaller" (not "at least one size category smaller", although that's a reasonable interpretation.)
Well when mounted you do count as your mounts size.