Can a PC stack 2 archetypes together using the same level?
i have a PC who is wanting to stack invul rager and Urban Barb archetypes as his 2nd level choice.
For me, i see that the RAI is that it's a 1 to 1 equation. 1 archetype for the level.
thoughts?
About archetypes:
"A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature."
As long as you don't trade out the same class feature, you're okay.
If a first level Rogue gets Trapfinding and Sneak Attack, then she can take the Clumsy Fool archetype that loses Trapfinding and gains Improved Damage-Taking, as well as take the Pacifist archetype that loses Sneak Attack and gains Bitter Tears.
However, you cannot take a single level of an archetype -- you're applying the full archetype or not at all. You can't cherrypick class features. As such, if there is a conflict between two-plus archetypes anywhere in the class progression, then they are incompatible.
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You do not take Archetype per level (unless you are multi-classing and then it has to be archetypes of different classes). Archetypes are total class replacements. And you can stack them as long as both archetypes do not change/replace the same class features.
In this case:
Invul Rager replaces/changes:
Uncanny Dodge
Trap Sense
Improved Uncanny dodge
DR
And Urban Barb replaces/changes:
rage
greater rage
mighty rage
So, the character in question would start as a first level barbarian with both archetypes since neither archetype replaces/changes the same class features.
Out of curiosity, what was his first level class? If he is a normal Barbarian, than he already has an archetype (standard barbarian) and cannot take another archetype since all his class features are in use.
Out of curiosity, what was his first level class? If he is a normal Barbarian, than he already has an archetype (standard barbarian) and cannot take another archetype since all his class features are in use.
Not true.
Standard class is first off not an arch type it is a class. Second you are choosing to take an archtype at the time you take your first level in the class. You do not have to multi-class inorder to take archtypes, they just replace the normal class abilities.
All archtypes must be decided when you take the first level of the class, you cannot go back and decide later. The archtype represents your focus of training in the class.
he is a first level fighter.
you can delay choosing an archetype up until the level it actually changes your abilities.
for instance a ranger who is undecided about being a battle scout archetype or just a normal core ranger is free to claim to be a normal ranger or a battle scout up until he reaches level 4, in which there would actually be a change in his class because of the battle scout archetype. that is when he would have to definitely choose.
you can delay choosing an archetype up until the level it actually changes your abilities.
for instance a ranger who is undecided about being a battle scout archetype or just a normal core ranger is free to claim to be a normal ranger or a battle scout up until he reaches level 4, in which there would actually be a change in his class because of the battle scout archetype. that is when he would have to definitely choose.
Actually no that is not right.
Advanced players guide page 72, first paragraph of the alternate class features section.
"When a character selects a class, he must choose to use the standard class features found in the Core Rulebook or those listed in one of the archtypes listed here."
The idea behind this is your character would have learned different things in his training, he does not just magically decide that he would want this ability one he gets the experience. He would have been practicing in his down time, perfecting those abilities till they finally become available to him.
asythyril was referring to this post by SKR. Or something similar to it. Or something a poster said based on the sentiment found within that post. You get the idea.
You don't have to decide whether or not you're taking an archetype until you hit a level where the archetype in question would swap out your class abilities. If your archetype doesn't swap anything until level 5, you don't make a decision until you hit level 5 in that class.
And, and as the APG says, if you're GM's willing to let you retrofit an existing character to an archetype, that's totally fine.
You are right about what the text says, but eh. Less fun that way.
Actually no that is not right.
Advanced players guide page 72, first paragraph of the alternate class features section.
"When a character selects a class, he must choose to use the standard class features found in the Core Rulebook or those listed in one of the archtypes listed here."
The idea behind this is your character would have learned different things in his training, he does not just magically decide that he would want this ability one he gets the experience. He would have been practicing in his down time, perfecting those abilities till they finally become available to him.
Actually it is right.
A character "selects a class" every level. It's the reason we can multiclass. When that 4th level character selects Ranger, and says, "I want to be a Battle Scout", and he qualifies to be a Battle Scout, then he trades out all the normal Ranger abilities for the Battle Scout ones.
If he chooses the Archetype at a later level, he would retroactively trade out any earlier abilities for the Archetype abilities, if the DM allows this (which they don't have to, on the same page of the APG, under "Adapting Existing Characters").
As a DM, I would concur with the above. Once the first actual ability of that Archetype is affected, that's when the player would have to make the choice to take the Archetype or progress normally.
Please note there is nothing in RAW that says this has to happen at creation or level 1 of the choice. It simply states it's an "all or none" choice and happens upon "selecting a class".
Meaning once you make the choice, you MUST choose all of the Archetype abilities. They are not pick-and-choose.
Barry, the portion about "Adapting Existing Characters" is about adapting characters to the new archetypes contained in the book they're found in. You cannot retroactively change an ability you've already gained with an archetype's ability, as your post is suggesting. What you are suggesting creates a lot of really weird situations, and I highly, highly doubt that it is what the developers intended with archetypes.
@cheapy: Sounds like Barry and you are saying the same thing - that is you can choose to take an archetype at first level, or at the level it switches out the classes first standard ability for an alternate one.
We are indeed saying the same thing, although my first post can be taken the wrong way. I just re-read it and it's written badly.
Some archetypes give you class skills once you take it. Some give abilities right away, at first level, that don't trade out for others.
What I meant was, as soon as a class ability is affected, meaning the typical line of "This ability replaces <X>", you either choose the Archetype or you don't. That's the core of the choice.
What I didn't mean was having a level 19 Barbarian that all of a sudden wants to give up all their rage abilities to go Urban Archetype.
The book does not say when he selects a class level, it says when he selects a class as in the first time he selects a class. You only select a particular class one time, each aditional time you are choosing to take more levels in that class.
ok...lets get back to the original topic...
could a PC apply 2 different archetypes while using the same level?
ok...lets get back to the original topic...
could a PC apply 2 different archetypes while using the same level?
Dewn,
Short answer, yes.
If he is a level 1 fighter, then when he chooses his first level of barbarian, at level 2, he can choose his Barbarian Archetypes. In this case, Urban Barbarian and Invunerable Rager, which do stack.
You must choose your Archetypes for that class when you first take a level in that class. So, now, for example, he could NOT take a 2nd level of Fighter at level 3 and choose fighter archetypes at that time.
ok...lets get back to the original topic...
could a PC apply 2 different archetypes while using the same level?
You can use 2 different archtypes, BUT those archtypes must be chosen when you take your first level in the class, and then you have to use the WHOLE archtype. You cannot pick and choose what abilities you want. Both of those arch types cannot make changes to the same ability ANYWHERE in the leveling line. Does not matter if both change a lv 16 ability and you only plan on going to level 10 in the class if they effect the same ability you cannot stack them.