Bleeding crit and stunning critical


Rules Questions


Ok...so i have a warrior level 18 in my campaign that attacks with two weapons, allowing him to deliver 6 attacks (7 when hasted by the mage)

So...he scores critical with 17, 18, 19 and 20. Every confirmed critical he adds 2D6 of bleeding and the stun (with Saving throw) or the staggering condition if a failed saving throw for 1D4 rounds cumulative.

To be honest...its way to much.....how do you handle this kind of meat machine??? Its completely overpowered...i can throw a CR18 to him alone and he single handedly can easily defeat it.

Something wrong with those rules?

Pls lend me some light.


come on, he is not even using a 15-20 crit range, he is not using cornugon smash to increase the DC for the stunng crit by +2 nor Sickening crit for another +2.

Now, he is not overpowered. Compare to a level 18 Druid/wizard/cleric/summoner and you should see that fact.


the idea of the CR is to assure balance. a CR 18 should be a challenging encounter for a level 18 party. But, if one PC can defeat alone with easy that CR is enough prove "for me" that something is UNBALANCED with some combos of PATHFINDER.


Antabires wrote:
the idea of the CR is to assure balance. a CR 18 should be a challenging encounter for a level 18 party. But, if one PC can defeat alone with easy that CR is enough prove "for me" that something is UNBALANCED with some combos of PATHFINDER.

In fact CR x is not a challenging encounter for a x level party is a relative easy encounter.


I'm with you. I have a similar character. I feel like I ruin combat for the other melee characters (rogue and anti-paladin). My +TH, AC, and Damage are so high that for it to be a challenge to me they can't hit it. Of course when the Paladin smites he is relevant, but since we are evil we don't just fight good - we fight everyone.

While I excel in combat, I don't have a lot to do outside of combat. Consider that the balance.

Fast healing will negate the bleed damage. Staggered isn't a significant debuff against a caster.

I imagine you are doing almost 30 points of damage per hit (before power attack). Even barring critical hits not much can stand up to a full round of attacks.


Nicos wrote:
Antabires wrote:
the idea of the CR is to assure balance. a CR 18 should be a challenging encounter for a level 18 party. But, if one PC can defeat alone with easy that CR is enough prove "for me" that something is UNBALANCED with some combos of PATHFINDER.

In fact CR x is not a challenging encounter for a x level party is a relative easy encounter.

challenging=easy

party=4 players

With the combo the CR18 es easy for one player.

thats what i mean.


The Bald Man wrote:

I'm with you. I have a similar character. I feel like I ruin combat for the other melee characters (rogue and anti-paladin). My +TH, AC, and Damage are so high that for it to be a challenge to me they can't hit it. Of course when the Paladin smites he is relevant, but since we are evil we don't just fight good - we fight everyone.

While I excel in combat, I don't have a lot to do outside of combat. Consider that the balance.

Fast healing will negate the bleed damage. Staggered isn't a significant debuff against a caster.

I imagine you are doing almost 30 points of damage per hit (before power attack). Even barring critical hits not much can stand up to a full round of attacks.

i have the same feeling..in fact other players (mage 18/cleric 18/rogue 18) see the fighter as overpowered.

The warrior is making like you said...among 25 to 30 points of damage per hit..assuming he scores all 7 attacks he can strike 210 wounds.

Spoiling other characters or ruining like you say its not a good feeling :(


It make me happy to see the mage and the cleric feeling the fighter is overpower, but i really do not see how that happens.

It seems you have the case when a character is more optimized than his companions, the cleric and the wizard should be stronger with the right choises.

Now, you can not expect a higher level encounter to be the same as a low level one. If enemis just let the fighter full attack , they deserve the death they will have.

EDIT: can you post the whole builds for comparision?


I am not going to go into the full builds, but my party is a hyper-optimized rogue, mounted-combat oriented antipaladin, sorcerer, and undead lord cleric. The fighter only bonuses to hit & Damage are huge discriminators: 6/6 weapon training (4+2-gloves), 1/0 gr. weapon focus, 0/4 greater weapon specialization. Totals +7TH & +10 damage.

TWF and power-attack negate the bonus to hit but make the bonus to damage +20 per hit and a second hit. Assuming 30 damage per hit base with PA fighter is 100 damage over 2 hits compared to the Antipaladin's 1 hit for low 30's. And is still 5 better TH than the rogue.

High level fighter's tend to be sticky - once they get next to you they are had to shake due to feats like the step-up chain, and pin down.


Antabires wrote:
The Bald Man wrote:

I'm with you. I have a similar character. I feel like I ruin combat for the other melee characters (rogue and anti-paladin). My +TH, AC, and Damage are so high that for it to be a challenge to me they can't hit it. Of course when the Paladin smites he is relevant, but since we are evil we don't just fight good - we fight everyone.

While I excel in combat, I don't have a lot to do outside of combat. Consider that the balance.

Fast healing will negate the bleed damage. Staggered isn't a significant debuff against a caster.

I imagine you are doing almost 30 points of damage per hit (before power attack). Even barring critical hits not much can stand up to a full round of attacks.

i have the same feeling..in fact other players (mage 18/cleric 18/rogue 18) see the fighter as overpowered.

The warrior is making like you said...among 25 to 30 points of damage per hit..assuming he scores all 7 attacks he can strike 210 wounds.

Spoiling other characters or ruining like you say its not a good feeling :(

The 5 Gunslinger/9 Paladin (Divine Hunter) I am running in our current campaign can beat that on a non-smite target if I score one crit, or shatter it on a smite target without critting. Given any advanced notice of combat I put up my weapon bond early, then cast Divine Power on the first round. With that, I roll against touch AC with a d10+22+2d6(holy) for non-smite damage, or d10+30+2d6(holy) against a smite target and with haste I make 5 attacks per round with a x4 weapon, three of which are at my highest BAB. And I can do that at a range of 80 feet before I start taking penalties for firing beyond my first range increment. And that doesn't even take into account Litany of Righteousness.

At level 18 you could build FAR worse than a crit based fighter. Try a Two Handed Fighter ACF for starters, or a Battering Blast specialist Sorcerer or Wizard, or even an optimized Shocking Grasp Magus. All of them will make that fighter look a fool in combat.

What I would recommend to avoid this kind of thing is A) Talking to your players about the relative power level of the campaign prior to starting, so everyone is on the same page, B) Limiting stats to a point buy (15-20) which can make it difficult for certain classes to get all the prerequisites they need for feats and whatnot, and C) designing encounters based around your party dynamic. So you have a fighter that destroys everything in melee? Put him up against incorporeal undead and cut his damage in half while at the same time making the target immune to stuns and bleed damage. Throw in a caster that can immobilize the party with spells like Black Tentacles or Stinking Cloud. Use poisons to drain their stats, or outright kill the fighter with death spells, forcing the Cleric to spend a round picking him up off the ground with Breath of Life. And if the Cleric didn't take Breath of life, they will learn next time.

There are countless ways to challenge a party that puts out otherwise overwhelming damage. One of my favorites was an encounter I designed for the Skull And Shackles group I'm running. They wanted to do more raiding so I made a few targets for them, and one was a Mobile Fighter ACF with Dervish Dance, Critical Mastery and a few critical feats. She spent most of the fight letting her minions trap them up while making acrobatics checks to tumble past party members and throw full attacks. They were forced to move and make single attacks while contending with her exceptionally high AC and her minions. Once the party fighter managed to corner her with his Falcata and land a crit the fight was pretty well over, but it took several rounds of them fumbling around before they came up with a plan and executed it.

Thousands of combinations exist in this game that can make exceptionally powerful PC's. You just need to be prepared for it and get creative.


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Cant at level 18, the wizard point at the bad guy, mumble some arcane words, and he falls over dead?

And he's jealous of the fighter?

Scarab Sages

At level 18 you should have enemies that are either teleporting or flying, which should make it much more difficult for the fighter to be getting in all of his Full Attacks. 210 damage for a fighter who connects with all of his attacks at 18th level really isn't that out there. A paladin charging and smiting on his mount with a lance can deal comparative damage 6 levels earlier, and a pouncing barbarian wielding a THW can do it at about 12-13th level as well. High level adventures require a whole new style of play. It sounds like your fighter is doing exactly what he should be at that level and it's the rest of the party and possibly you as the GM who hasn't adapted to high-level play. Not to be offensive, but nothing the fighter you've described is doing is that out there.

Scarab Sages

The Bald Man wrote:
I am not going to go into the full builds, but my party is a hyper-optimized rogue, mounted-combat oriented antipaladin, sorcerer, and undead lord cleric. ***

Rogue's are typically not the best damage dealers unless they're two weapon fighting and get a flank on. Remember, their 10d6 sneak attack dice only average out to about 30 extra damage per successful sneak attack. He'll probably destroy in some encounters while lagging substantially in others, all dependent on whether he's getting his SA.

A mounted combat oriented Anti-paladin should be doing more than an average of 30 damage a hit. If he's charging on his mount, he should be using a lance with Spirited Charge for x3 damage and dealing at least 120 damage or 180 when smiting. If he's really focused around mounted combat he should also have Mounted Skirmisher to allow him to full attack with a melee weapon even when his mount moves.
It really just sounds like the fighter built his character well and others either didn't, or aren't playing classes that should be comparing their damage to a fighter.


If your fighter got three crits on six attacks, he was pretty lucky. Not unbelievably lucky, but reasonably lucky. Sometimes players have a run of luck and roll over an encounter. It happens.

Sometimes he won't roll over a ten on an entire full attack, and all those shiny crit feats won't do a thing.

I play a high level fighter with critical hit feats, and both these things have happened to me. Sometimes I am on fire and murderizing encounters left and right. Sometimes I'm not.

If your fighter is always rocking and nobody else ever is, then perhaps you have a problem between some players optimizing and some not. If his damage dealing is the star sometimes, and sometimes the wizard's spells or the cleric's blessings save the day, then all is as it should be.


Thats a possibility..in general all players feel fine with overpowered characters. But not everyone is reading and reading the rules to optimize their characters.

Anyway, thanks everyone i assume that the warrior has optimized his PC.

I will house rule the bleeding so as to not stack (only 2d6 per round)and i will erradicate all the failed ST result of improved criticals combo only allowing the main effect.

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