Wow. Now there's an outrageously fun idea. I would concur on human. Can't wait to see some of the build plans. I may contribute later when I have more time.
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Quick note, Scarred Witch Doctors must be orcs. Which lends well to the barbarian aspect (though it prevents a 20 in constitution to start).
I would love to see this work, but I am having an incredibly difficult time seeing it. Open to thoughts though.
Honestly, I could see most groups house-ruling away the racial restriction on most of those racial archetypes. Often they only have some small thematic connection with nothing preventing you from subbing in any other random race and seeing it work.
But yes, but RAW, they must be an orc (and a full-blooded one at that!)
So what's the point of the barbarian witch doctor? Utility spells when not in combat, maybe a couple long-term buffs, then rage + occasional hex in combat? I suppose it could work. Definitely interesting. Make sure to pick up moment of clarity for that occasional emergency cast.
Humans, Half-Orcs, and Half-Elves can take the archetype using Racial Heritage (Orc).
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dosen't 1/2 orc count as orc for this so you could get a 20 in con.Quick note, Scarred Witch Doctors must be orcs. Which lends well to the barbarian aspect (though it prevents a 20 in constitution to start).
I would love to see this work, but I am having an incredibly difficult time seeing it. Open to thoughts though.
Nope. The racial archetypes and favored class bonuses are only for that EXACT race, not merely for someone who counts as that race for the purposes of spells and such.
Nope. The racial archetypes and favored class bonuses are only for that EXACT race, not merely for someone who counts as that race for the purposes of spells and such.
Where does it say that?
Because that kinda contradicts the whole "Half-Whatever races can take Racial Feats" thing.
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Nope. The racial archetypes and favored class bonuses are only for that EXACT race, not merely for someone who counts as that race for the purposes of spells and such.Where does it say that?
Because that kinda contradicts the whole "Half-Whatever races can take Racial Feats" thing.
I forget where it is stated (if at all), but I remember seeing it on the forums from one of the devs at one point. Actually, this may have just been in reference to favored class bonuses back in the APG days.
Either way, I tend to prefer going the other way and make as few things as possible race-specific.
Where does it say that?
Because that kinda contradicts the whole "Half-Whatever races can take Racial Feats" thing.
There was an arbitrary ruling that half-whatever races can't take racial archetypes... but Racial Heritage, which uses exactly the same wording, does let you take racial archetypes.
Which means a half-orc can't use her orc half to qualify as a Scarred Witch-Doctor - but she can use her human half to qualify for Racial Heritage to qualify for Scarred Witch-Doctor.
It's kind of a stupid ruling.
The ruling that Racial Heritage does work is here. I don't have the other ruling on hand.
That's...um
What?
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There is nothing about Half-Orc or Half-Elves being able to take Human, Orc, or Elf Archetypes. Archetype and Feats are not effects.
The Half Races have their own Archetypes.
Racial Heritage does work.
See the FAQ.
There is nothing about Half-Orc or Half-Elves being able to take Human, Orc, or Elf Archetypes. Archetype and Feats are not effects.
The Half Races have their own Archetypes.
Racial Heritage does work.
See the FAQ.
But Half-Orcs have the Orc subtype.
Suck it FAQ.
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Archetype and Feats are not effects.
Don't try to pretend the ruling can be inferred from the actual text. Look at this:
Orc Blood: Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race.
They're exactly the same. There is nothing in the writing that implies they shouldn't act identically.
Now, here's the fun part. If you're a half-orc, you can't take human archetypes like Buccaneer, right? But you can take Racial Heritage (Dwarf). And Racial Heritage's wording is completely symmetrical - it does exactly the same thing for human-related effects as it does for dwarf-related effects, since everything it says is in the form "both human and that race". So once you take Racial Heritage (Dwarf), Racial Heritage says you count as human, and so you can take human archetypes like Buccaneer.
Let me repeat that: half-orcs aren't sufficiently human until they find out that they have some dwarf blood in them.
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It seems silly to me to say:
You're a half-orc, so you can't take this feat, which only has the prerequisite that you be an orc, and you cannot take this archetype, which only has the prerequisite that you be an orc.
But that guy over there? That guy who's not even an a half orc? He can take that feat. and that archetype.
Why? Because he burned a feat to do so. Except he's human, so he still nets the same feats as you.
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Archetype and Feats are not effects.Don't try to pretend the ruling can be inferred from the actual text. Look at this:
Orc Blood: Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race.They're exactly the same. There is nothing in the writing that implies they shouldn't act identically.
Now, here's the fun part. If you're a half-orc, you can't take human archetypes like Buccaneer, right? But you can take Racial Heritage (Dwarf). And Racial Heritage's wording is completely symmetrical - it does exactly the same thing for human-related effects as it does for dwarf-related effects, since everything it says is in the form "both human and that race". So once you take Racial Heritage (Dwarf), Racial Heritage says you count as human, and so you can take human archetypes like Buccaneer.
Let me repeat that: half-orcs aren't sufficiently human until they find out that they have some dwarf blood in them.
And this would be one of those times that I face-palm with the force of a thousand suns.
If you'll excuse me, I'm gonna use this to go mentally reinforce my mantra of "why the f+++ is this race-restricted?!"
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Archetype and Feats are not effects.Don't try to pretend the ruling can be inferred from the actual text. Look at this:
Orc Blood: Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race.They're exactly the same. There is nothing in the writing that implies they shouldn't act identically.
I agree that they're the same, but Orc Blood doesn't have that magic line that talks about Traits and Feats and Archetypes.
And it's clear that they want to distinguish between things like orc and half-orc for feat selection because if you look at some feats like Destroyer's Blessing, it says "Half-orc or Orc" while others like Born Alone say "Orc." Which means that if Half-Orcs were meant to qualify as Orcs for feats, Destroyer's Blessing would say "Orc" and not "Half-Orc or Orc."
I agree that they're the same, but Orc Blood doesn't have that magic line that talks about Traits and Feats and Archetypes.
You mean the line that begins with "For example", and which is therefore clarification of the preceding line rather than actual additional rules?
And it's clear that they want to distinguish between things like orc and half-orc for feat selection because if you look at some feats like Destroyer's Blessing, it says "Half-orc or Orc" while others like Born Alone say "Orc." Which means that if Half-Orcs were meant to qualify as Orcs for feats, Destroyer's Blessing would say "Orc" and not "Half-Orc or Orc."
The reason most feats say "Half-orc or orc" is that they were written before orcs were a PC race, and it would look strange to only have monster races listed. Born Alone just says "orc" because it came out in the ARG, when orcs were a PC race.
That's why you see "Half-orc or orc" feats all over the place but not "Half-elf or elf" - elves have always been a PC race.
Don't think the Half race rules are correct?
Take it to the Rules Forum.
Oh, I think they're "correct" in the sense that that's what the FAQ says.
I think they're incorrect in the sense that it's a stupid ruling that makes no in-world sense and which the actual text doesn't support.
Personally, I don't like Half Races counting as three races without an investment.
Um, their investment is being the half-race in the first place instead of a race with decent racial features. You don't really think Half-Elves are overpowered, do you?
It's kind of a stupid ruling./understatement
Edit: I'll still burn a feat in a heartbeat to use my CON as my casting stat.
Agreed. House rules to remove such rulings for the win!
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Agreed. House rules to remove such rulings for the win!It's kind of a stupid ruling./understatement
Edit: I'll still burn a feat in a heartbeat to use my CON as my casting stat.
I agree with Roberta, who was kind enough to point out a line I missed in the racial heritage.
There's just no reason that a half-orc shouldn't qualify for the class and to make matters worse, the fact that a plain human can qualify by taking a feat is just throwing salt in the wound.
There is a couple of funny things in this whole mess.
Firstly Devs have never directly addressed half-races and archetypes. They have in a FAQ said half-races are not able to take race feats. They have also said racial heritage can take racial archetypes. But they have never said a word about half-races and racial archetypes. So while one could say close enough to being answered its not really been answered. Granted saying half-races can't take what racial heritage can in any context is still idiotic since they are worded the same but moving on.
The next thing is by RAW at least as it is written in the book does not bar other races from the archetypes anyway. I do not have it in front of my ATM but as I recall it says "Typically" or something close. It does not say must.
Between the wording in the book not being hard and fast on who can take it and stupid rulings on things with the same wording the whole thing is a load of stupid.
I really wonder what they were thinking when publishing such a strong archetype for an already strong class. It's the type of archetype that people would use to point out that all 3PP is overpowered. The only explanation I can think of is that they didn't expect people to skirt around the roleplaying enforced issues.
I really wonder what they were thinking when publishing such a strong archetype for an already strong class. It's the type of archetype that people would use to point out that all 3PP is overpowered. The only explanation I can think of is that they didn't expect people to skirt around the roleplaying enforced issues.
While IMO its far from the strongest build out there you do have a point.
If it was me writing the archetype I would have gone Wis casting (which doctor just seems wis based to me.) with a ability that gives class lvl + Wis mod in hp or something of the like. That way you still have your beefy HP caster thing without it getting to crazy amounts.
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Another piece of evidence pointing to the fact that racial heritage and the effects line of half-races are one and the same is that HeroLab lets you take scarred witch doctor as a half-orc. (Yes...Yes...I know what you are going to say)
As far as RAW goes. The effects line of half-races and racial heritage are exactly the same. We just get a little clarification as to what they mean by effects in the racial heritage feat. So I say half-orc SWD is a go. To bad it's not a legal choice in PFS.
I honestly can't think of a stronger caster build.I really wonder what they were thinking when publishing such a strong archetype for an already strong class. It's the type of archetype that people would use to point out that all 3PP is overpowered. The only explanation I can think of is that they didn't expect people to skirt around the roleplaying enforced issues.While IMO its far from the strongest build out there you do have a point.
If it was me writing the archetype I would have gone Wis casting (which doctor just seems wis based to me.) with a ability that gives class lvl + Wis mod in hp or something of the like. That way you still have your beefy HP caster thing without it getting to crazy amounts.
Master Summoner.
Also blackbloodtroll I know its you personal crusade that the word effects somehow means two different things but I have been curious as to why. Just want humans to always be the master race?
Discussing RAW and poorly thought out FAQ's that jumble the RAW is just fine for the rules forum.
I am offended that half-elves get immunity to sleep for zero investment. And dwarves, getting a bonus to notice unusual stonework for zero investment? What was Paizo thinking?
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I am offended that half-elves get immunity to sleep for zero investment. And dwarves, getting a bonus to notice unusual stonework for zero investment? What was Paizo thinking?
I am telling you, start a thread in the General Discussion board.
I even feel bad for interrupting the OP's desire for Advice.
Let's not do it any more.
what level are you starting at/aiming for?
i'd say go for:
human (because as you can see above in the thread, paizo is bass-ackwards when it comes to races and common sense) w/ racial heritage (orc)
16 (10pts.)
12 (2pts.)
19 (13pts. +2 racial, all level points go into this)
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10 ()
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take a level or two in urban barbarian (because they can use controlled rage or rage as normal) and continue scarred witch doctor as usual. dip 1 in alchemist (at second or third level perhaps) for mutagen, bombs (or sneak attack), and such for even more WAHAHAHA.
-if allowed, the pit-touched infernal eldritch heritage feats (at least to improved EH for that juicy scaling con bonus--though i'm not sure if that's allowed, as it's a sorc archetype, not an alternate bloodline) are worth a look, if not then abyssal for more strength is great.
-consider the 'moment of clarity' rage power for when you opt to rage normally and still wanna do casty things.
-look into the raging vitality feat (i'm not sure it works with controlled rage, but again you can opt to rage normally).
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also unrelated, but my theory on BBT is that he's simply a cleric of pelor the burning hate (which isn't an insult, btw).
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take a level or two in urban barbarian (because they can use controlled rage or rage as normal) and continue scarred witch doctor as usual. dip 1 in alchemist (at second or third level perhaps) for mutagen, bombs (or sneak attack), and such for even more WAHAHAHA.
Can Urban Barbarians actually use the normal Rage modifiers? I thought they gave it up for Controlled Rage:
"Controlled Rage (Ex): When an urban barbarian rages, instead of making a normal rage she may apply a +4 morale bonus to her Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. This bonus increases to +6 when she gains greater rage and +8 when she gains mighty rage. She may apply the full bonus to one ability score or may split the bonus between several scores in increments of +2. When using a controlled rage, an urban barbarian gains no bonus on Will saves, takes no penalties to AC, and can still use Intelligence-, Dexterity-, and Charisma-based skills. This ability otherwise follows the normal rules for rage."
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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take a level or two in urban barbarian (because they can use controlled rage or rage as normal) and continue scarred witch doctor as usual. dip 1 in alchemist (at second or third level perhaps) for mutagen, bombs (or sneak attack), and such for even more WAHAHAHA.
Can Urban Barbarians actually use the normal Rage modifiers? I thought they gave it up for Controlled Rage:
"Controlled Rage (Ex): When an urban barbarian rages, instead of making a normal rage she may apply a +4 morale bonus to her Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. This bonus increases to +6 when she gains greater rage and +8 when she gains mighty rage. She may apply the full bonus to one ability score or may split the bonus between several scores in increments of +2. When using a controlled rage, an urban barbarian gains no bonus on Will saves, takes no penalties to AC, and can still use Intelligence-, Dexterity-, and Charisma-based skills. This ability otherwise follows the normal rules for rage."
The "she may apply" is what makes it so you can choose to use normal rage instead.
Here's my suggestion for a Barb/Scarred Witch Doctor:
Half-orc
Level 1: Urban Barbarian
Levels 2-6: Scarred Witch Doctor
Levels 7-16: Eldritch Knight
Levels 17-20: Scarred Witch Doctor
Make sure to take Extra Rage a time or two, and you'll be a 19th-level caster with Con-based casting and a +15 BAB. Your hexes suffer a bit, but I think it's worth it for the base attack.
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[Can Urban Barbarians actually use the normal Rage modifiers? I thought they gave it up for Controlled Rage:
"Controlled Rage (Ex): When an urban barbarian rages, instead of making a normal rage she may apply a +4 morale bonus to her Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. This bonus increases to +6 when she gains greater rage and +8 when she gains mighty rage. She may apply the full bonus to one ability score or may split the bonus between several scores in increments of +2. When using a controlled rage, an urban barbarian gains no bonus on Will saves, takes no penalties to AC, and can still use Intelligence-, Dexterity-, and Charisma-based skills. This ability otherwise follows the normal rules for rage."
The "she may apply" is what makes it so you can choose to use normal rage instead.
Wow, I read that as the "may" applying to the fact that she has a choice in which stat to drop the ability in, not that they maintained the option for a normal rage. Unless you're really attached to Fast Movement why wouldn't everyone play an Urban Barbarian? You vastly improve your Rage ability and gain a bonus to attacks and dodge vs. multiple enemies, not to mention the bonus to intimidate and being able to utilize all your skills while raging and you give up... 10 feet of movement?
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take a level or two in urban barbarian (because they can use controlled rage or rage as normal) and continue scarred witch doctor as usual. dip 1 in alchemist (at second or third level perhaps) for mutagen, bombs (or sneak attack), and such for even more WAHAHAHA.
Can Urban Barbarians actually use the normal Rage modifiers? I thought they gave it up for Controlled Rage:
"Controlled Rage (Ex): When an urban barbarian rages, instead of making a normal rage she may apply a +4 morale bonus to her Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. This bonus increases to +6 when she gains greater rage and +8 when she gains mighty rage. She may apply the full bonus to one ability score or may split the bonus between several scores in increments of +2. When using a controlled rage, an urban barbarian gains no bonus on Will saves, takes no penalties to AC, and can still use Intelligence-, Dexterity-, and Charisma-based skills. This ability otherwise follows the normal rules for rage."
The "she may apply" is what makes it so you can choose to use normal rage instead.
Here's my suggestion for a Barb/Scarred Witch Doctor:
Half-orc
Level 1: Urban Barbarian
Levels 2-6: Scarred Witch Doctor
Levels 7-16: Eldritch Knight
Levels 17-20: Scarred Witch DoctorMake sure to take Extra Rage a time or two, and you'll be a 19th-level caster with Con-based casting and a +15 BAB. Your hexes suffer a bit, but I think it's worth it for the base attack.
The "may apply" applies to the ability score modifiers, not the normal rage clause. The "Controlled Rage" ability prohibits raging normally, but lets you choose which of the three physical stats you boost when you do rage.
Also, EK loses a level of spellcasting at first level, so your example is only an 18th level caster.
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take a level or two in urban barbarian (because they can use controlled rage or rage as normal) and continue scarred witch doctor as usual. dip 1 in alchemist (at second or third level perhaps) for mutagen, bombs (or sneak attack), and such for even more WAHAHAHA.
Can Urban Barbarians actually use the normal Rage modifiers? I thought they gave it up for Controlled Rage:
"Controlled Rage (Ex): When an urban barbarian rages, instead of making a normal rage she may apply a +4 morale bonus to her Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. This bonus increases to +6 when she gains greater rage and +8 when she gains mighty rage. She may apply the full bonus to one ability score or may split the bonus between several scores in increments of +2. When using a controlled rage, an urban barbarian gains no bonus on Will saves, takes no penalties to AC, and can still use Intelligence-, Dexterity-, and Charisma-based skills. This ability otherwise follows the normal rules for rage."
The "she may apply" is what makes it so you can choose to use normal rage instead.
Here's my suggestion for a Barb/Scarred Witch Doctor:
Half-orc
Level 1: Urban Barbarian
Levels 2-6: Scarred Witch Doctor
Levels 7-16: Eldritch Knight
Levels 17-20: Scarred Witch DoctorMake sure to take Extra Rage a time or two, and you'll be a 19th-level caster with Con-based casting and a +15 BAB. Your hexes suffer a bit, but I think it's worth it for the base attack.
The "may apply" applies to the ability score modifiers, not the normal rage clause. The "Controlled Rage" ability prohibits raging normally, but lets you choose which of the three physical stats you boost when you do rage.
Also, EK loses a level of spellcasting at first level, so your example is only an 18th level caster.
Do you have a source for your assessment of Controlled Rage? Cuz I've never heard anyone say it works that way before.
You're definitely right about EK, that was dumb.