
Garth_Rousch |
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
such as shocking grasp? seems like a 7th lvl rogue with a wand of shocking grasp shouldn't be able to do 9d6 damage...the reason for the debate is because of the arcane trickster ability which says you can now combine sneak + spells. One side says now you can sneak + spell for the first time, the other says now it can be done with indirect magic...
could we get a hand settling this debate?

Albatoonoe |

Well, with sneak attack, you can apply sneak attack damage to any attack that you have to roll for, including touch attacks and rays. What the arcane trickster ability does is allow you to apply sneak attack damage to any spell, whether you need to roll to attack or not. That means you can sneak attack with magic missile or some other spell like that.
Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's right.

Cayzle |

Yes, I agree. You can sneak attack with a spell that requires an attack roll, even such a lowly one as Ray of Frost, for example.
Note this question from the Core Rules FAQ:
How does the Surprise Spells class feature of the Arcane Trickster prestige class (Core Rulebook, page 378) work with spells like magic missile and fireball?
The Surprise Spells class feature allows the Arcane Trickster to add his sneak attack dice to spells that deal damage that target flat-footed foes. This damage is only applied once per spell. In the case of fireball this means it affects all targets in the area, with each getting a save to halve the damage (including the sneak attack damage). In the case of magic missile, the extra damage is only added once to one missile, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.

Umbranus |

such as shocking grasp? seems like a 7th lvl rogue with a wand of shocking grasp shouldn't be able to do 9d6 damage...
How would you do 9d6? Do you want to use a Cl 5 wand? 5d6 from the wand + 4d6 from sneak attack would really do 9d6.
But with 3750gp for the wand this is far from cheap, too. Thats 75gp per charge.A scoll of grease CL 5 scribed with a flask of acid as power component cast on the target's armor will deal flat 50 points of damage to the target unless he manages to take it off. And it costs only 35gp.

Sangalor |

Garth_Rousch wrote:such as shocking grasp? seems like a 7th lvl rogue with a wand of shocking grasp shouldn't be able to do 9d6 damage...How would you do 9d6? Do you want to use a Cl 5 wand? 5d6 from the wand + 4d6 from sneak attack would really do 9d6.
But with 3750gp for the wand this is far from cheap, too. Thats 75gp per charge.A scoll of grease CL 5 scribed with a flask of acid as power component cast on the target's armor will deal flat 50 points of damage to the target unless he manages to take it off. And it costs only 35gp.
Scrolls are more difficult to activate...
But it does sound like an awfully expensive tactic indeed :-P
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Well, with sneak attack, you can apply sneak attack damage to any attack that you have to roll for, including touch attacks and rays. What the arcane trickster ability does is allow you to apply sneak attack damage to any spell, whether you need to roll to attack or not. That means you can sneak attack with magic missile or some other spell like that.
Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's right.
You are right with the caveat that the attack also has to deal HP damage. You cannot add sneak attack damage to a ray that deals ability damage only, for example.

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This is why my rogue took Minor Magic: Acid Splash. It lets me throw a touch attack 30 feet 3 times per day that ignores both SR and DR. With high initiative and perception, this means I can catch enemies within 30 feet flat footed for a sneak attack, even during a surprise round, without having to take the time to draw a weapon.

Cheapy |

This is why my rogue took Minor Magic: Acid Splash. It lets me throw a touch attack 30 feet 3 times per day that ignores both SR and DR. With high initiative and perception, this means I can catch enemies within 30 feet flat footed for a sneak attack, even during a surprise round, without having to take the time to draw a weapon.
Incidentally, I remember seeing something about this scenario being why minor magic is limited in uses per day.

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Fromper wrote:Incidentally, I remember seeing something about this scenario being why minor magic is limited in uses per day.This is why my rogue took Minor Magic: Acid Splash. It lets me throw a touch attack 30 feet 3 times per day that ignores both SR and DR. With high initiative and perception, this means I can catch enemies within 30 feet flat footed for a sneak attack, even during a surprise round, without having to take the time to draw a weapon.
I haven't had a chance to play him yet since getting this ability (I have too many PFS PCs, so I switch back and forth a lot), but 3 times per day should be plenty. After using this in the opening round of combat, enemies normally won't be flat footed, so then I'll move in for melee and use acrobatics to get into flanking position.

Tiny Coffee Golem |

Umbranus wrote:A scoll of grease CL 5 scribed with a flask of acid as power component cast on the target's armor will deal flat 50 points of damage to the target unless he manages to take it off. And it costs only 35gp.How exactly does that work? Where does that 50 points of damage come from?
I assume he means over this course I the spells duration and not all at once.

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Oh, I see, so over 50 rounds. What exactly do you do for those 50 rounds while you wait?
I'm not even sure how to handle targeting an enemy's armor, as the spell only included beneficial effects if used on armor (and thus there is no save, usually), and otherwise says the targets will drop the item if it fails a save.
I'm thinking the 75gp per shot wand of shocking grasp is the better deal, given it deals all the damage up front and stands a chance of overcoming the target's energy resistance and doesn't involve a save.

asthyril |

i would question the legality of using a wand of shocking grasp twice in one surprise round, if that is what you are saying he does. it is still a standard action to activate it.
also isn't that talent just once a day? and with a weapon people aren't aware of? (they would see the wand wouldn't they?)
or am i thinking of a different talent?

Sangalor |

@ umbranus yes he's using a cl 5 wand of shocking grasp crafted by the party wizard...and he took the rogue talent that allows for maximized damage off of the surprise round attack. with that and hellcat pounce means not many monsters survive.
You can always houserule it, of course, but that does not sound legal according to the rules.
1. A wand is no weapon2. The shocking grasp spell is no weapon
3. A weapon must be concealed if you are referring to the underhanded talent. Neither would fulfill the condition.
4. The sneak attack could be maximized, but not the shocking grasp since it's not part of the sneak attack - if you intended for it to work in the first place.
Also, it still isn't cheap. A wand at CL5 is 1*5*750/2=1875 GP to create. Also, you need a UMD check of 20 to activate. At level 7 you have 7+3=+10 on the skill. Let's say you have a 14 CHA, that nets you +2. Let's further assume you took skill focus (UMD), that gives you a +3, bringing you up to add a +5 to the +10, resulting in a total of +15. Since you cannot take 10 on UMD, you have a good chance to suffer a mishap and not have access to it for 24 hours.
Personally I would rather suggest to get an enchantment on the weapon or multiclassing to activate without fail or even cast the spell yourself.
For example, a rogue 5/wizard 2 with magical knack trait already has a CL of 4, netting you 4d6 shocking grasp (among other goodies). With the loss of 1d6 sneak you are still looking at a +3d6 damage. If you added an appropriate ioun stone or into spell focus and spell specialization, you could up that even further. And you could easily restore the spell with a pearl of power 1st...
Regarding hellcat pounce, I am not sure why you bring that up. The target is not considered flat-footed against that second attack (feat description), so no sneak attack. Also, if you hit with your schocking grasp before, it is already discharged - leaving you purely with the weapon damage. This again would suggest to rather go with weapon enchantments.
Just some notes :-)