Help with arcane duelist

[Tim Melnick]

I was invited too join in my friends already going Council of Thieves campaign, and was leaning towards arcane duelist. I was just looking over the archtype and was thinking, what would be better, get jotungrip via two lvs of titan mauler too use greatsword, or go full dex with dervish dance too add dex too the extra damage?

[calagnar]

With the way Council of Thieves is set up. I will strongly recommend keeping versatile performance. There are allot of skill challenges where bard can shine out side of combat.

If your going with a arcane duelist a two handed weapon is a good idea. Just need to remember your AC is very low. You will need to find some extra HP to make up for it. So starting Con 14 or 16 + Toughness is something else you might want to look in to. I never recommend multi-classing a bard. As all there ability's are level dependent. Bards like spell casters need to gain much to make up for the lose of levels in there core ability's.

[Pendagast]

why bother with the whole jotun grip side track?

Dervish dancer bard might be a good build.

Arcane duelist is like a magus-bard.

A bard is DEFINITELY a good class for this AP. Arcane duelist is cool because you get better armor later on. what about ye old sword and shield? Tried and true.

My wife played a barbarian/bard/dragon disciple in this AP back when it first came out, and she was a holy terror.

Have you thought of an Arcane Duelist shield/whip combo?

[Urist The Unstoppable]

Go sing or orator and just use a twohander, pick a race that has weapon familarity with a good two hander.

[Pendagast]

half orc!

[Rycaut]

I would never rule out multiclassing - just realize what you are trading off - but a Bard - arcane duelist/Two-handed fighter/Dragon Disciple is indeed a scary scary melee fighter.

- Bard spells/wands/performances for some buffing and utility (rallying cry - rarely used but makes a huge impact when you do)

- fighter levels = feats, more HP, lots of damage and decent BAB

- Dragon Disciple = claws (for when weapons just aren't available), breath weapon, lots of HP and INHERENT STR bonuses.

This type of Bard likely ends up being:

STR > CON?DEX?CHA > INT/WIS (with it not being unlikely that CHA is your 3rd or even 4th ability score.

The PFS character built this way I play with is a serious front line combatant - dishing out massive damage with every Power Attack - if he's disarmed he just pops claws and still dishes out lots of damage. He doesn't cast a lot of spells (does use some wands and casts some self-buffs) and he only rarely uses bardic performance but overall is always a welcome addition to any table as his damage output and survivability are great.

[Michael Sayre]

You could also look at using an Elven Curve Blade to get a good mix of THF and Dex, without going Dervish

[Azelyan]

I have an arcane duelist in a game thats currently being run. He uses a longspear to stand behind the fighter. That way he takes the brunt of the damage and i can still support. I plan on grabbing Speardancer at 5, as I have weapon focus for the long spear as my Human feat, and lingering performance for level 1 feat.

I plan on doing:
3. Combat Reflexes
5. Speardancer
7. Flagbearer
9. Craft Wondrous Items
11. Discordant Voice

So while my role is still primarily a support player (Funny since right now with my 20 strength, I do the most damage in the party, it will be offset eventually), but being able to help with damage, and eventually support by attacks (daze with speardancer), makes him semi versatile.

[Sangalor]

Azelyan wrote:

I have an arcane duelist in a game thats currently being run. He uses a longspear to stand behind the fighter. That way he takes the brunt of the damage and i can still support. I plan on grabbing Speardancer at 5, as I have weapon focus for the long spear as my Human feat, and lingering performance for level 1 feat.

I plan on doing:
3. Combat Reflexes
5. Speardancer
7. Flagbearer
9. Craft Wondrous Items
11. Discordant Voice

So while my role is still primarily a support player (Funny since right now with my 20 strength, I do the most damage in the party, it will be offset eventually), but being able to help with damage, and eventually support by attacks (daze with speardancer), makes him semi versatile.

Interesting feat selection... Couple of question about that:

Flagbearer states you must have one hand free to hold the flag. How do you do that with a longspear (2HW)? Did you simply rule that you can attach the flag to your longspear, or is there a rule that allows that in the first place?

I wouldn't count on the longspear-behind-fighter tactic to work for long, though. Since allies also count for the purpose of cover for reach weapons, you will be hitting at -4 all the time - not really easy to hit reliably with a med-bab class like a bard.

Also, as an arcane duelist you probably will choose that longspear to be your bonded item? If yes, you might want to consider eschew materials - you have no hand free to manipulate those. But that depends on how you interpret the rules...

Arcane duelist is really an interesting archetype. I second the suggestion for a shield (light one though) and whip above. You can do a lot of nasty tricks with that. Also the spell solid note is just made for it :-P

[Azelyan]

banner of the ancient king allows you to put your banner on a longspear (which in turn doubles flagbearers effect). Arcane duelists bonded item states you dont need a freehand to cast spells. But most people consider that you can hold the 2 handed weapon with 1 hand, leaving the other hand free to cast spells.

[Michael Sayre]

Azelyan wrote:

But most people consider that you can hold the 2 handed weapon with 1 hand, leaving the other hand free to cast spells.

As supported by Paizo's Creative Director James Jacobs here.

[Azelyan]

^ thanks you've proven my point. And I believe normally banners could be put on long spears. If a wondrous banner can, a normal one should be allowed to as well, thus why i picked flagbearer as a feat for my arcane duelist.

[Sangalor]

Ssalarn wrote:

Azelyan wrote:

But most people consider that you can hold the 2 handed weapon with 1 hand, leaving the other hand free to cast spells.

As supported by Paizo's Creative Director James Jacobs here.

Yes, but he also states that that is his personal interpretation.

You must "wield" an arcane bond to cast spells, and that means holding it in two hands while casting. See also here for JJ's remark concerning that.

The AD can do that, no problem, it says so explicitely for somatic components. It does not say anything about materials, though, which is why I mentioned it here - it might be worth clarifying it with your GM.

My groups wouldn't go with the more leeway interpretation above, but if you can do it in your group, that's fine :-)

[Sangalor]

Azelyan wrote:

^ thanks you've proven my point. And I believe normally banners could be put on long spears. If a wondrous banner can, a normal one should be allowed to as well, thus why i picked flagbearer as a feat for my arcane duelist.

What is banner of the ancient king? I didn't find it...

Well, if it works for you, that's fine. I just thought to point out where it might fall short - in my groups it wouldn't be allowed.

So if you're sure about that, then there is no reason to rearrange your feats or change anything.

You might want to consider getting teleport tactician sometime later in your build. As an AD you are one of the very few classes/archetypes who can qualify for it, and it can make life really difficult for those high CR teleporting/escaping opponents :-)

Have fun.

[Michael Sayre]

Sangalor wrote:

Ssalarn wrote:

Azelyan wrote:

But most people consider that you can hold the 2 handed weapon with 1 hand, leaving the other hand free to cast spells.

As supported by Paizo's Creative Director James Jacobs here.

Yes, but he also states that that is his personal interpretation.

You must "wield" an arcane bond to cast spells, and that means holding it in two hands while casting. See also here for JJ's remark concerning that.

The AD can do that, no problem, it says so explicitely for somatic components. It does not say anything about materials, though, which is why I mentioned it here - it might be worth clarifying it with your GM.

My groups wouldn't go with the more leeway interpretation above, but if you can do it in your group, that's fine :-)

Banner of the Ancient Kings.

Also, the Arcane Duelist's Arcane Bond specifically says " Arcane Bond (Ex)
At 5th level, an arcane duelist gains the arcane bond ability as a wizard, using a weapon as his bonded item. He may not choose a familiar or other type of bonded item. He may use the hand holding his bonded weapon for somatic components."

So there's absolutely no issues or GM interpretation required for Azelyan's build. The Arcane Duelist specifically can cast with a hand that is wielding his Arcane Bond. All perfectly legal with no gray areas.

[Sangalor]

Ssalarn wrote:

Sangalor wrote:

Ssalarn wrote:

Azelyan wrote:

But most people consider that you can hold the 2 handed weapon with 1 hand, leaving the other hand free to cast spells.

As supported by Paizo's Creative Director James Jacobs here.

Yes, but he also states that that is his personal interpretation.

You must "wield" an arcane bond to cast spells, and that means holding it in two hands while casting. See also here for JJ's remark concerning that.

The AD can do that, no problem, it says so explicitely for somatic components. It does not say anything about materials, though, which is why I mentioned it here - it might be worth clarifying it with your GM.

My groups wouldn't go with the more leeway interpretation above, but if you can do it in your group, that's fine :-)

Banner of the Ancient Kings.

Also, the Arcane Duelist's Arcane Bond specifically says " Arcane Bond (Ex)
At 5th level, an arcane duelist gains the arcane bond ability as a wizard, using a weapon as his bonded item. He may not choose a familiar or other type of bonded item. He may use the hand holding his bonded weapon for somatic components."

So there's absolutely no issues or GM interpretation required for Azelyan's build. All perfectly legal with no gray areas.

You must have overlooked that I pointed out that there is no issue with the somatic components. That was not my point at all. Instead, I stated that the materials might make it difficult.

So it's a gray area for me, still :-)

[Sangalor]

And btw about the banner: Nice item!

Gotta consider it for my evil bardic overlord in my campaign ;-)

[Michael Sayre]

Sangalor wrote:

You must have overlooked that I pointed out that there is no issue with the somatic components. That was not my point at all. Instead, I stated that the materials might make it difficult.

So it's a gray area for me, still :-)

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't find anything, anywhere, that says you actually need a free hand for components. The only thing I could find was "To cast a spell with a material (M), focus (F), or divine focus (DF) component, you have to have the proper materials, as described by the spell. Unless these components are elaborate, preparing them is a free action. For material components and focuses whose costs are not listed in the spell description, you can assume that you have them if you have your spell component pouch."

So as long as you have your pouch you're good.

I even have literary precedent, as Count Varian Jeggare in the Pathfinder Novels (Prince of Wolves, Master of Devils, Queen of Thorns) is described several times as casting spells and the materials being consumed directly from his spell pouches.

[Sangalor]

Ssalarn wrote:

Sangalor wrote:

You must have overlooked that I pointed out that there is no issue with the somatic components. That was not my point at all. Instead, I stated that the materials might make it difficult.

So it's a gray area for me, still :-)

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't find anything, anywhere, that says you actually need a free hand for components. The only thing I could find was "To cast a spell with a material (M), focus (F), or divine focus (DF) component, you have to have the proper materials, as described by the spell. Unless these components are elaborate, preparing them is a free action. For material components and focuses whose costs are not listed in the spell description, you can assume that you have them if you have your spell component pouch."

So as long as you have your pouch you're good.

I even have literary precedent, as Count Varian Jeggare in the Pathfinder Novels (Prince of Wolves, Master of Devils, Queen of Thorns) is described several times as casting spells and the materials being consumed directly from his spell pouches.

I think that your understanding is at least debatable. In the magic chapter it states:

Quote:

To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). Additionally, you must concentrate to cast a spell.

"Manipulate" implies that you have to do it with at least a hand free. Usually this is no problem since you have a free hand for the somatic components.

Another hint at this interpretation is the "Grappling or Pinned" section

Quote:

The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.

This alone usually already makes it worthwhile for me to consider eschew materials.

Well, anyway, it depends on the interpretation. My groups would not allow it your way, others might. I think my interpretation is correct, but in the end correct is what GMs and player's decide.

As stated I would simply advise Azelyan to address this point with his GM to not be surprised about a potentially different interpretation later.

Have fun :-)

[Michael Sayre]

On a side note, regardless of interpretation you could still have a pretty functional character under either interpretation as there's a fairly sizable number of bard spells with no material component.