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So.
Litany of...
...Madness doesn't allow a save... until it does, at which point "a saving throw" can be made to negate the effect, although which save is not clarified (though I'd presume will);
... Eloquence, Weakness, Sloth, and Righteousness, do not, despite afflicting a condition on the target (well, Righteousness dubiously applies a RAW "condition", but the others have specified conditions, and Righteousness does afflict the target for one round);
... Escape is instantaneous (the only one to be comprehensibly so);
... Sight, Defense, and Warding, don't have a save, but that makes sense as they are personal;
... Vengeance is instantaneous but applies a lasting effect, meaning the target can never be affected by another litany spell again and is irreparably harmed;
... while Entanglement allows a will save, and Thunder allows a fortitude save.
While most are either close range or personal with no save (except the two that allow a save) and a 1 round duration (except for Madness and the two instantaneous ones)... what's up with these things?
I don't have ultimate combat, so perhaps I'm missing something there, but as it stands these spells have amazing potential, but make no sense. There's an almost-theme to them, but they're a little... off. Is there errata on them that I'm unaware of? Am I missing some crucial rule? Or are they really just that in need of tweaking?
Yeah, this is confusing.
Madness makes sense. You hit them with a litany and until the start of their turn, when they get the save, they cannot be hit with another litany. This is important because the casting time for Madness is 1 swift action; so you can't just sit there and hit them with a few until one sticks.
Eloquence, Weakness, Sloth, and Righteousness last 1 round and have no save; it isn't unusual though it does make them rather useful.
Vengeance is a Transmutation, which suggests that it actually (and permanently) transforms the target so that it will forever take extra damage. I mean it is a paladin 4/inquisitor 5 (level 13) spell, which means it should be rather powerful... but still.
The theme is language-dependent mutually exclusive swift action spells. They are generally powerful but short lived and can only target one creature.
I mean, I kind of get that, but they still seem... odd. Also, because Vengeance exists as an instantaneous effect, literally once someone is hit with it they are never able to be affected by the others again.
While Madness does make sense to a point, it's still bizarre that Entanglement and Thunder allow saves, but Madness does not (and that Madness lasts for more than one round).
Really, I think that Madness and Vengeance are the largest, "odd man out" kind of spells, as they just seem to not fit with the others (even more so than escape, although that seems like it should be retooled as a different kind of spell, or the "I'm not grappled" benefit lasts one round).
Anyway, thanks. :)
Madness has no save. They are automatically afflicted with Confusion. However, they can make a save every round to break out of it. That's not weird at all.
I agree that it's odd that Entanglement and Thunder have saves, though--seems to be off-theme.
Vengeance is nuts--the Instantaneous duration has to be a mistake.
Madness has no save. They are automatically afflicted with Confusion. However, they can make a save every round to break out of it. That's not weird at all.
I agree that it's odd that Entanglement and Thunder have saves, though--seems to be off-theme.
Vengeance is nuts--the Instantaneous duration has to be a mistake.
That's what I mean, though. You have two similarly-themed abilities (Entanglement and Thunder) that grant saves, whereas Madness (only one) does not. And confusion is a pretty devastating effect to be potentially more than one round. I'd suggest either Entanglement and Thunder need their saves removed and turned into a Madness-style duration, or Madness needs a save put in and brought to their duration instead.
Madness is also the only one (aside from Vengeance and Escape) to have a duration other than one round.
THAT SAID, I don't think that they're poorly designed, I just think it's a bit off-theme. The most pressing issue is the save for madness on the subsequent rounds. It doesn't clarify which save. Is it a fortitude save? A reflex save? A will save? Any save at all?
While personally I think that it would be a will save, I could see the argument by RAW being made that any saving throw the character would want to make should apply.
And Vengeance is crazy powerful. Paladin fourth level spells and Inquisitive fifth level spells are not supposed to be the equivalent of druid, sorcerer, witch, and wizard sixth and eighth level spells: Flesh to Stone, and Polymorph Any Object are the closest equivalents I can think of, and while the latter is merely permanent (and thus able to be dispelled), the former, being instant, actually requires a very specific spell (Stone to Flesh) in order to undo. And Litany has no such equivalent. If it were merely "permanent", I'd consider it slightly broken in power and theme (a swift action no-save permanent "take extra damage" spell v. 1 round duration of the others) , but it'd at least have ways of undoing it. Currently, it is a forever "you take extra damage and can never benefit from escape, sight, defense, and warding; ... oh, and technically you're immune to the bad effects of eloquence, weakness, sloth, righteousness, entanglement, and thunder!" ... which really isn't a bad deal for a creature with good saves and high damage reduction. Heck, if I were a mythic monk, mythic monster, or an outsider with DR, I'd actually strongly consider having people cast it on me.
The thematic elements to an otherwise pretty awesome suite of spells is kind of all over the place. I like the Litany line in theory. In practice, it's a little weird.
I'd appreciate if someone faq'd my first post especially about Vengeance being instantaneous.
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RE: Litany of Vengence
I'm betting it's a copy & paste error and should be one round as it shows in the summary of the spells in the PRD and in summaries in Ultimate Combat.
-TimD
Ah, ahah! Thank you! That indeed makes it make muuuuuuuuuuch more sense.
Still. It would be useful to update! :)
That's kind of the point of why Vengeance is so absurdly potent, as written in the text. Currently it seems to be a copy/paste error, but as it is, the copy/paste error is in the worst place, as the rules indicate that the little off-hand text in the description defers to the descriptive text of the actual spell description.
Edit: also why Madness is so powerful!
Edit: also why Madness is so powerful!
It's not. It's a "debilitate until they save" spell as a swift action. It's not a whole lot different than, say, Quickened Castigate, which is also a 6th level spell and doesn't give the enemy a 25% chance to act normally.
Bards and Wizards get the actual Confusion spell at level 7, it hits crowds (allowing for the feedback loop where one target attacks another who is now forced to attack the first who now must attack the second until one or both die), and has only an initial save, not one every round.
Inquisitors wait until 16th level to cast Litany of Madness. Yeah, it's good, but it's not overpowered by any stretch.
I understand your objection that there are variations between the Litany spells. You see these variations as breaking the themes of the series.
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However, they have a large number of things in common:
- Only castable by melee/divine classes Paladin & Inquisitor
- Swift action casting time.
- Short range (either Close or Personal)
- Short duration
- Single target
- Mutually exclusive
- Short duration
- Useful in combat situations
- Subject to spell resistance
- Most are language dependent
- Very few offer saving throws
The theme I see is that the Litanies give melee/divine characters spells to cast during combat, without giving up their primary strategy of attacking and without stepping on the toes of full-time casters.