So Ive never made a character with gear in mind before, but it occurred to me some certain cheese 'might' work.
the combo in question:
TWF
Improved shield bash
Buckler
Two weapon defense
and an off hand weapon with the defender quality.
All stacking?
No Imp Shield bash with bucklers and you don't get the buckler's AC bonus when you have a weapon in the same hand.
Believe me I've tried to look for ways of THF + Buckler or TWF + Buckler but unless there is some obscure feat I don't think it's possible.
No Imp Shield bash with bucklers and you don't get the buckler's AC bonus when you have a weapon in the same hand.
Believe me I've tried to look for ways of THF + Buckler or TWF + Buckler but unless there is some obscure feat I don't think it's possible.
3rd party feat, Open Design
Buckler Mastery
You gain additional benefits when using a buckler.
Prerequisite: Shield Proficiency
Benefit: You can perform a shield bash with a buckler. When wielding a weapon in the same hand as your buckler, you may elect to either ignore the −1 atack penalty or gain a +1 shield bonus to AC.
Special: A buckler counts as a light weapon and has the same weapon profile as a light shield.
Another 3rd party feat that fits your theme from 4 Winds Fantasy
Two Shield Fighting (Combat)
You make a good offense out of a great defense.
Prerequisite: Shield proficiency, Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: When wielding two shields, apply the shield bonus of both shields to your AC. If both shields provide an enhancement bonus to AC, apply the higher enhancement bonuses in full as the primary shield and +1 enhancement bonus for the off-hand shield.
Not trying to bash with the buckler. (and wasnt there a spiked buckler? Or was that an older version?)
Trying to stack defender AC bonus with shield AC bonus, technically dont even care if I attack with the off hand, just trying to stack Defender with the shield, while keeping the main hand open for attack.
Rules state you don't get the shield bonus is you shield bash or attack with the off hand (unless you have improved shield bash, in which case you can bash AND get the AC) Rules dont state you can't have a weapon or something else in the hand the buckler is on. In fact it's kinda the purpose of the buckler.
In order to get the AC bonus from Two weapon defense, you must have TWF and a weapon in your hand. there is no requirement to attack with it.
The weapon is question (pff hand) would be the defender with all its magic put toward defense. On the same off hand arm, wearing a buckler.
So for example, that one appendage, would have a +4 defender short sword, and a +3 buckler, so the AC bonus would be 9 (4 for the shield, 4 for the defender and 1 from two weapon defense)
THAT's what Im trying to do
Improved shield bash would theoretically allow the character to still retain the AC from the buckler, but get an off hand attack with the sword in the same arm.
no looking for duelist archetype, trying to make loophole cheese.
Look at the buckler rules
ou can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn . You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.
You can have a buckler and a defending short sword in your hand but you only benefit from the short sword.
I think the only way to get shield + twf defending weapon + two weapon defense is via an animated shield which have been nerfed significantly from 3.5
but what if i dont USE the weapon. Im not trying to attack with it (that would only be extra cheese)
IF im fighting defensively, and not attacking with the offhand weapon, is there anything that keeps the defender short sword bonus and the buckler ac from being active at the same time.
additionally, improved shield bashes intent, is to allow the wielder to keep the shield ac bonus after an attack with his shield arm (technically in the case of an actual bash) but what would keep the feat from applying to someone attacking with an offhand weapon from the buckler arm?
You cant make a shield bash with the buckler because it's not IN your hand, and it's too small to make contact. but the improved shield bash feat is about the quick smack and an equally quick recovery for defense.
That's a pretty rules lawyer reading of the word Use. I think wielding a weapon definitely counts as use not just making an attack with the weapon.
I think you definitely need a third party feat to make this build functional.
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The weapon is question (pff hand) would be the defender with all its magic put toward defense. On the same off hand arm, wearing a buckler.
Yes, per RAW a defending weapon provides it AC bonus as a free action at the beginning of your turn before any attacks are made. So you could simply hold one in your off hand. Technically you don't even need TWF to hold it there since you'd only attack with your main hand. However, until you get to higher levels it's more cost effective just using a large shield.
In order to get the AC bonus from Two weapon defense, you must have TWF and a weapon in your hand. there is no requirement to attack with it.
Two Weapon Defense grants a shield bonus which wouldn't stack with your buckler. It isn't worth investing two feats for a +1 AC bonus anyways.
That's a pretty rules lawyer reading of the word Use. I think wielding a weapon definitely counts as use not just making an attack with the weapon.
I think you definitely need a third party feat to make this build functional.
Actually by RAW, he's right. You only lose the bucklers AC when using the hand/arm it's attached to when you attack with said arm or cast somatic spells.
He could indeed have a one handed weapon with defending on it and a buckler on the same arm, and as long as he doesn't attack with that arm he keeps the bucklers AC. As I think about it this method allows for the most effective of "shield" arms possible but you can't bash with it (even with the 3rd party feat you lose out on the shields bonuses) and this method REEKS of swiss and gouda.
oh i know it reeks. Like I said, it's loophole cheese, just never dawned on me.
The actual build, and why I even thought of it, is a back up character, so he will start at a higher level and enough wealth to afford said defender blade.
The character is a half drow LE fighter.
He focuses on using a double bladed sword, and I wanted to include a buckler.
One side of the weapon was going to be a +4 defender. Technically, I don't have to wield both sides of the blade. I 'can' just attack with one of the blades. So, If I wanted to duck and cringe, fighting defensively, I would only attack with one side of the blade, put the other side of the blade to defense and cower behind the buckler as well.
Character would have a +3 shocking/+4 defending double bladed sword. +3 buckler, +2 mithral agile breastplate, +2 cloak of protection.
The other thing I can't figure out, The main concept for the character is to slice, dice and move a lot. I REALLY like Mobile fighter, I REALLY like Two weapon warrior and I really like armor and weapon training... arrrrg! Decisions Decisions.
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it's loophole cheese
There's no loophole. Two-Weapon Defense does not stack with a buckler because both provide a shield bonus.
One must only hold a defending weapon to recieve it's AC bonus, not use it in combat. Your concept is similar to wearing spiked armor and echanting the spikes with the defending property. It can be effective but you never see it because generating AC is more cost effective in different ways until higher levels.
A better idea if your bent on using a shield, would be a large spiked shield which you eventually make the spike defending. But you're looking at 8,000gp for +1 AC, so by then you should already have a +5 shield, +2 ring of protect/+2 amulet of natural armor, ect.
and defender still stacks with all of it, so it will always be extra ac.
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and defender still stacks with all of it, so it will always be extra ac.
Of course it does, that's the point of the Defending special property. It's not a loophole. You're sacrificing what could be an attack bonus for an AC bonus that stacks with everything. It's a terrible tradeoff when you look at bonus gained per gp spent.
and defender still stacks with all of it, so it will always be extra ac.Of course it does, that's the point of the Defending special property. It's not a loophole. You're sacrificing what could be an attack bonus for an AC bonus that stacks with everything. It's a terrible tradeoff when you look at bonus gained per gp spent.
Not really a terrible tradeoff when your main goal is to not be reduced to red-mist from lucky hits.
The loophole being shot for is holding an off hand weapon with the defender quality in an arm with a buckler shield on it.
the norm is having a defender weapon you could be attacking with in your strong arm, and a shield in your off hand, and stacking that way, but you lose attack bonus.
In this case the strong hand is still capable of attacking with the main weapon, while the defender weapon is just hanging out with the buckler in extra defense, for the sole purpose of hunkering down.
IF the character wants to in round 1, he can be two weapon fighting, and in round two could be defensive fighting, but now, since he isn;t choosing to TWF, he doesn't get the -2 to attack (so is effectively receiving a not usually realized +2 to hit for his main weapon) AND he's putting alot more defense on.
It gives a TWF who is normally swinging like wild a turtle effect.
IF he's TWFing, he doesn't get his shield AC, and his Defender is probably set to attack.
Which means the 4ac from shield and the 4ac from the defender aren't in effect.
But when he needs it, he switches to combat expertise, fighting defensively, doesn't use any off hand attacks, and suddenly he's 8 AC higher than normal, plus benefits from CE and fighting defensively and the -2 he normally gets from TWF is instead offsetting the CE because he's not taking the extra attacks,
The cheese/loophole is using the same arm to get shield AC and defender AC.
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What you just described would be a completely ineffective PC though.
If the sole concept of the PC is to get as much AC as possible, there are much more effective means than stacking a defending weapon and a shield.
As I've stated before, Two Weapon Defense does not stack with your buckler's shield bonus. If you're stacking them it's not a loophole, it's breaking the rules.
You mention 4ac from shield and 4ac from weapon... That's 59,000 gp for 8 AC (9,000 for +3 buckler and 50,000 for weapon). For 57,000 gp, you could have 13 AC plus 4 touch AC (9,000 for +4 large shield, 18,000 for ring of protection +3, 18,000 for amulet of natural armor +3, 5,000 for a Dusty Ioun Stone).
The defending weapon property is not meant to be a mainstay for defense. It's for players who want extra utility. Hence why the AC bonus per gp spent doesn't match with items meant to boost AC.
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But when he needs it, he switches to combat expertise, fighting defensively, doesn't use any off hand attacks, and suddenly he's 8 AC higher than normal, plus benefits from CE and fighting defensively and the -2 he normally gets from TWF is instead offsetting the CE because he's not taking the extra attacks
You should really get a build up here because this is just a bad combo. You're using combat expertise which requires 13 int, normally a dump stat. For such a feat intensive build as TWF, what are you sacrificing to get combat expertise?
Ontop of this, you're investing in a defending weapon which really cuts down DPR (the focus of a TWF build). Instead you could have a keen weapon.
Not really a terrible tradeoff when your main goal is to not be reduced to red-mist from lucky hits.
It's a terrible trade off because you're purchasing an item that's not on 100% of the time and inferior to other +1 bonuses (mainly keen). And if it's on 100% of the time, you could get much better for less.
Dot.