I've recently come to realize I may have ignored some limitations to how easy it is to cast spells. In my defense, this stuff is spread out all over the book, in feats, classes, the magic chapter, etc. I'm trying to get it all in one place, so I can finally understand it all.
In the past, I never played many spellcasters (in fact, I never played much D&D), but currently I'm in three campaigns (two PF, one 3.5), and I've been playing a 3.5 Druid for a while, and have recently started playing a PF Wizard and a Bard. So I figured: maybe it's time I got a better handle on the complexities of spellcasting. And my main issue is: how much time does it take, apart from the standard action (or whatever) to cast the spell itself?
I think that in all my groups we may have a tendency to ignore the time it takes to draw a weapon or switch to a different weapon, so I guess it's fair to do the same for spellcasting, but spellcasting is already quite powerful and flexible, and maybe this is actually an important limitation to it. I don't know. I'm just trying to understand it.
Casting spells with a somatic component (which I'd always ignored up to now) requires a free hand. I suppose that means that my Bard will have trouble casting spells in combat if he's also wielding a sword and shield. So it takes a move action to sheathe the sword, a standard action to cast the spell, and then he can't draw his sword anymore, unless he takes Quick Draw (suddenly I understand why that feat is useful).
The Bard could drop his sword as a free action, cast the spell as a standard action, then pick up the sword from the floor as a move action. Is that correct? So dropping it is better than sheathing it.
Still, dropping a sword feels wrong if you intent to use it again later that round. Assuming he's got a shield on his arm instead of a center grip shield, could he pass the sword to his shield hand to hold it, then cast the spell, and then take it in his sword hand again? It makes more sense to me than dropping it, but there's nothing in the table of combat actions that sounds like this.
For my Wizard it's different. He doesn't fight, so he has his hands free to cast all the spells he wants. Only, some of his spells may be on scrolls, and he may want to use a metamagic rod.
When I first noticed metamagic rods, I thought they were ridiculously overpowered: they're pretty cheap, don't require a feat, and most importantly: they don't increase the level of the spell slot. I now realize what their main limitation is: you need to hold that rod, and you've got only two hands. So you can use only one rod for a spell with a somatic component, and two for a spell without somatic components. Is that correct?
Can I draw a rod the same way I'd draw a weapon (during a move)? Would Quick Draw help? And what about drawing wands and scrolls? Is that a move action too? Does Quick Draw help? Does it matter where I store them?
If I understand correctly, getting something from your backpack is only a move action. Is that correct? It sounds way too fast; wouldn't it involve taking off the backpack, opening it, getting something out, closing it, and putting it on again? I'm counting 5 move actions here. Or maybe a full round action.
A Handy Haversack always has the thing you need on top, as does the Efficient Quiver. Is not triggering an AoO the only difference with a regular backpack?
And can I store my scrolls and wands within easier reach than in my backpack? Efficient Quiver is supposedly great for wands and rods. Can I stuff potions in my belt? Hang a scroll case on the straps of my backpack? My 3.5 Druid has a scroll organizer, which I believe is a bandolier for scrolls, which should make it easier to retrieve scrolls. I'm not sure what the exact game effect is, but I haven't been able to find a similar item for Pathfinder.
Anyway, it looks like however I turn it, I'll need at least a move action to get that wand or scroll out (except with Quick Draw perhaps?). If I want to use a rod with it (is that even possible?), I'd have to draw that too. Do I still need a free hand to cast it, if it happens to have a somatic component? Or do those not matter for wands and scrolls?
Am I still overlooking vital complications here?
Casting spells with a somatic component (which I'd always ignored up to now) requires a free hand. I suppose that means that my Bard will have trouble casting spells in combat if he's also wielding a sword and shield. So it takes a move action to sheathe the sword, a standard action to cast the spell, and then he can't draw his sword anymore, unless he takes Quick Draw (suddenly I understand why that feat is useful).
only a heavy shield denies you the use of the hand of the arm using it. light shields and bucklers allow you your hand free
The Bard could drop his sword as a free action, cast the spell as a standard action, then pick up the sword from the floor as a move action. Is that correct? So dropping it is better than sheathing it.
except drawing a weapon does not provoke an AoO, but picking one up does.(sheathing it provokes too)
Still, dropping a sword feels wrong if you intent to use it again later that round. Assuming he's got a shield on his arm instead of a center grip shield, could he pass the sword to his shield hand to hold it, then cast the spell, and then take it in his sword hand again? It makes more sense to me than dropping it, but there's nothing in the table of combat actions that sounds like this.
because the shield with the free hand can make the motions required for somatic components.
So you can use only one rod for a spell with a somatic component, and two for a spell without somatic components. Is that correct?
that is correct
Can I draw a rod the same way I'd draw a weapon (during a move)?
no, that rule only applies to weapons
Would Quick Draw help?
no, quick draw also only applies to weapons
And what about drawing wands and scrolls? Is that a move action too? Does Quick Draw help? Does it matter where I store them?
drawing anything that isn't a weapon is a move action by itself, it cannot be combined with quick draw or as part of an actual move unless it is a weapon, as per RAW.
If I understand correctly, getting something from your backpack is only a move action. Is that correct? It sounds way too fast; wouldn't it involve taking off the backpack, opening it, getting something out, closing it, and putting it on again? I'm counting 5 move actions here. Or maybe a full round action.
no, according to the rules retrieving a stored item is a move action that provokes an AoO
A Handy Haversack always has the thing you need on top, as does the Efficient Quiver. Is not triggering an AoO the only difference with a regular backpack?
yes that is the only difference (and it often makes a big difference)
And can I store my scrolls and wands within easier reach than in my backpack? Efficient Quiver is supposedly great for wands and rods. Can I stuff potions in my belt? Hang a scroll case on the straps of my backpack? My 3.5 Druid has a scroll organizer, which I believe is a bandolier for scrolls, which should make it easier to retrieve scrolls. I'm not sure what the exact game effect is, but I haven't been able to find a similar item for Pathfinder.
the only thing i know of is the spring loaded wrist sheath. for 5g it allows you to store a wand hidden in your sleeve, which you can activate as a swift action to put the wand/dagger/whatever fits in it into your open hand. but as i said before, getting anything that is not specifically hidden on your person with the sleight of hand skill, is a move action(getting hidden items is a standard action)
Anyway, it looks like however I turn it, I'll need at least a move action to get that wand or scroll out (except with Quick Draw perhaps?).
yes you will need a move action unless you use the wrist sheath, quick draw will not help
If I want to use a rod with it (is that even possible?), I'd have to draw that too.
no you cannot use a rod with a scroll/wand, only spells ypu actually cast yourself
Do I still need a free hand to cast it, if it happens to have a somatic component? Or do those not matter for wands and scrolls?
i BELIEVE it should not matter with scrolls, i know it doesn't for wands. you just need to hold a wand and point it in the general direction of the effect.
only a heavy shield denies you the use of the hand of the arm using it. light shields and bucklers allow you your hand free
But a buckler occupies your hand at least as much as a small weapon like a dagger does. Light weapons don't count as a free hand for spellcasting?
I guess my Bard will have to exchange his heavy shield for a light one then. At least being able to cast with a light shield is still a good thing.
except drawing a weapon does not provoke an AoO, but picking one up does.(sheathing it provokes too)
And casting the spell provokes too, right? So if I want to do anything like this while threatened, I'll have to take a free 5 foot step first, and then do all the dropping and picking up.
Still, dropping a sword feels wrong if you intent to use it again later that round. Assuming he's got a shield on his arm instead of a center grip shield, could he pass the sword to his shield hand to hold it, then cast the spell, and then take it in his sword hand again? It makes more sense to me than dropping it, but there's nothing in the table of combat actions that sounds like this.because the shield with the free hand can make the motions required for somatic components.
That definitely helps when I have a light shield, but with a heavy shield, is there any way I can hold my sword in my shield hand for a moment while I cast the spell?
drawing anything that isn't a weapon is a move action by itself, it cannot be combined with quick draw or as part of an actual move unless it is a weapon, as per RAW.
That's a shame.
no, according to the rules retrieving a stored item is a move action that provokes an AoO
I meant that it would make sense to me if getting something from my backpack took longer.
I find it a bit weird that anything from getting something from your belt to rummaging around in your backpack is all a move action, but I guess that's what you get with an abstract system. At least it's clear: all my move actions are going to be eaten up by fiddling around with all my stuff.the only thing i know of is the spring loaded wrist sheath. for 5g it allows you to store a wand hidden in your sleeve, which you can activate as a swift action to put the wand/dagger/whatever fits in it into your open hand. but as i said before, getting anything that is not specifically hidden on your person with the sleight of hand skill, is a move action(getting hidden items is a standard action)
Spring loaded wrist sheaths sound awfully specific (and maybe a bit too high tech), but I'll keep it in mind. Probably most useful for wands I might need in combat.
Do you know what book they're from? I can't find them in Paizo's PRD.
no you cannot use a rod with a scroll/wand, only spells ypu actually cast yourself
Bummer, but I guess it makes sense.
Do I still need a free hand to cast it, if it happens to have a somatic component? Or do those not matter for wands and scrolls?i BELIEVE it should not matter with scrolls, i know it doesn't for wands. you just need to hold a wand and point it in the general direction of the effect.
That at least is good news. But I doubt you can use them with your shield hand if you're using a light shield, can you?
Thanks for all the excellent answers!
But a buckler occupies your hand at least as much as a small weapon like a dagger does.
No, the buckler specifically says you can hold things in that hand, or use that hand for spellcasting.
To avoid losing your buckler AC bonus, swap your weapon into your buckler hand, then use that free hand to cast, then swap your weapon back. Same thing for Light shields.
Some people are probably going to tell you that's a move action, but James Jacobs says it's fine. (here and here)
And casting the spell provokes too, right?
Unless it's a swift or immediate action to cast, or unless you cast defensively.
with a heavy shield, is there any way I can hold my sword in my shield hand for a moment while I cast the spell?
"A heavy shield is so heavy that you can't use your shield hand for anything else."
Spring loaded wrist sheaths sound awfully specific (and maybe a bit too high tech), but I'll keep it in mind. Probably most useful for wands I might need in combat.
Do you know what book they're from? I can't find them in Paizo's PRD.
Wrist Sheath, spring loaded: Source Adventurer's Armory
But I doubt you can use them with your shield hand if you're using a light shield, can you?
"A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it."
Since you can cast with a shield hand, I don't see any reason you can't use a scroll or wand with it.
Again, you'll have people telling you that scrolls use two hands and can't work in sheathes and all sorts of stuff, so ask your GM to be sure.
But a buckler occupies your hand at least as much as a small weapon like a dagger does.No, the buckler specifically says you can hold things in that hand, or use that hand for spellcasting.
I believe this is a case of my real life weapon experience interfering with my roleplaying. (It's said to be much worse with LARPs, where experienced fighters simply cannot fight LARP-style anymore.) The PRD says a buckler is strapped to your arm, leaving your hand completely free, and you can't shield bash with them. The bucklers I've used are held in your hand, can be used to punch, but aren't all that more suitable for holding other stuff in your hand than a heavy shield (assuming a kite shield counts as heavy).
According to the PRD, you can cast spells with your buckler hand, but not with a light shield, though you can hold your sword in the same hand as a light shield.
To avoid losing your buckler AC bonus, swap your weapon into your buckler hand, then use that free hand to cast, then swap your weapon back. Same thing for Light shields.
Some people are probably going to tell you that's a move action, but James Jacobs says it's fine. (here and here)
That is good news.
And casting the spell provokes too, right?Unless it's a swift or immediate action to cast, or unless you cast defensively.
But I believe casting defensively got a lot harder in Pathfinder, right?
Wrist Sheath, spring loaded: Source Adventurer's Armory
That's not on Paizo's PRD site, though. Is it as official as anything else?
But I doubt you can use them with your shield hand if you're using a light shield, can you?"A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it."
Since you can cast with a shield hand, I don't see any reason you can't use a scroll or wand with it.
Again, you'll have people telling you that scrolls use two hands and can't work in sheathes and all sorts of stuff, so ask your GM to be sure.
I will. Thanks.
According to the PRD, you can cast spells with your buckler hand, but not with a light shield, though you can hold your sword in the same hand as a light shield.
And since it's "not an action" to swap your weapon into your light shield hand, do something, then swap back, that's why JJ says it's cool to just cast with the light shield hand and not fiddle about.
But I believe casting defensively got a lot harder in Pathfinder, right?
Harder than what?
Casting Defensively: "If you want to cast a spell without provoking any attacks of opportunity, you must make a concentration check (DC 15 + double the level of the spell you're casting) to succeed. You lose the spell if you fail."
That's not on Paizo's PRD site, though. Is it as official as anything else?
d20pfsrd.com is not an official paizo website. It's basically a wiki. It's a pretty good reference, though.
Adventurer's Armory is an official paizo PFRPG book.
According to the PRD, you can cast spells with your buckler hand, but not with a light shield, though you can hold your sword in the same hand as a light shield.And since it's "not an action" to swap your weapon into your light shield hand, do something, then swap back, that's why JJ says it's cool to just cast with the light shield hand and not fiddle about.
So it's not technically legal, but there's a free workaround so you might as well allow this too.
But I believe casting defensively got a lot harder in Pathfinder, right?Harder than what?
Harder than in 3.5.
Casting Defensively: "If you want to cast a spell without provoking any attacks of opportunity, you must make a concentration check (DC 15 + double the level of the spell you're casting) to succeed. You lose the spell if you fail."
And the concentration check is 1d20 + caster level, right? In 3.5, Concentration is a skill, so it can be higher, and the DC is 15 + spell level, so it's easier.
Effectively, in Pathfinder it looks like you're always going to end up with about 25% chance of success when casting your highest level spell defensively. In 3.5 you can start out with a better than 50% chance, and it gets better as you level up, as long as you keep the skill maxed out.
In fact, it seems very risky to do this in Pathfinder, unless you're really high level, and you're casting a very low level spell.
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Well, the Combat Casting feat helps by granting a +4 on concentration checks to cast defensively. Also, concentration includes your casting stat modifier.
So a first-level wizard with 18 INT and Combat Casting casts defensively at +9 for a DC17 to cast a 1st-level spell.
A 6th-level wizard with 20 INT and Combat Casting can't fail to cast a first-level spell defensively.
So it's not technically legal, but there's a free workaround so you might as well allow this too.
Kind of.
Casting with a buckler hand is explicitly legal, and loses AC bonus.
Holding a weapon in a buckler or light shield hand is explicitly legal.
Casting with a free hand while using a buckler or light shield in the other hand is explicitly legal, even while holding (but not using) a weapon in that other hand.
If, as JJ says, it's a free action or not an action to switch your weapon into your other hand, that's the "workaround" for casting and not losing your buckler AC bonus.
There's still some balance between the buckler and light shield, basically trading the ability to use the buckler hand to wield a weapon (at penalties) in exchange for the ability to shield bash with a light shield.
And the concentration check is 1d20 + caster level, right?
Concentration: "When you make a concentration check, you roll d20 and add your caster level and the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type."
There are also feats, traits, items and abilities that can increase concentration checks.
Right, your casting stat modifier. That does make quite a bit of difference, especially since in 3.5, concentration is based on Con. Still, I'd rather avoid it if I can, and spend my feats on other stuff.
As for light shield versus buckler, that depends entirely on whether I want to shield bash or not. Does a shield automatically threaten? Do I have to give up my AC bonus for it to threaten, or do I only give that up when I actually attack? Can buddies flank when I just have a shield?
For a light shield, I don't think spikes are worth it.
Anyway, I'm drifting into Advice there. I think I've got a decent grasp on the rules now.
Does a shield automatically threaten?
Light and heavy shields do. (Assuming they're "donned" or equipped or whatever)
Do I have to give up my AC bonus for it to threaten, or do I only give that up when I actually attack?
You lose the AC bonus when you actually use the shield to bash (assuming you don't have improved shield bash).
Can buddies flank when I just have a shield?
If the creature they attack is threatened on the opposite border or opposite corner.
For a light shield, I don't think spikes are worth it.
Shield Spikes don't have much of a downside, unless you're planning lots of stuff around shield bashing.
Note: If you just want to threaten, you can do so with armor spikes, or in most cases with a spiked gauntlet.