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So there's a bit of contention over my wife's new Witch build.
She's ultimately going to prestige into the new Winter Witch class, so she wants to have the Winter Witch archetype to start.
But, she's also an Orc and wants the Scarred Witch archetype.
Now, both of these archetypes modify the familiar class feature, but I read them to mean that they will work together. The Winter Witch says
Winter witches must choose a familiar that
is native to the frozen north, even when they themselves
operate in other regions. Traditionally, this limits winter
witch familiar choices to bat, cat, fox, hawk, owl, rat,
raven, or weasel. A winter witch who gains the Improved
Familiar feat can select any familiar she desires, save for
familiars with the fire subtype.
which doesn't lock her into choosing a specific familiar, just one that will survive in the northern climate.
The Scarred Witch says
At 1st level, a scarred witch doctor
forms a bond with a wooden mask.....This ability otherwise functions like
and replaces the standard witch familiar.
So, it sounds like, to me at least, that these should work together.
This sounds like a job for
*dun dun DUN!* Game Master Man!
Honestly, you are going to get a real definitive answer from your GM.
I don't think these archetypes would stack with regards to familiars.
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A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature.
The Scarred Witch replaces the Familiar, and the Winter Witch alters it. They can't be used together.
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A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature.The Scarred Witch replaces the Familiar, and the Winter Witch alters it. They can't be used together.
This is completely true.
That said, if this is the only conflict I (as a DM) would totally allow the player to take the mask, as the familiar alteration in the first archetype is just so you don't do something ridiculous like have a jungle animal for a familiar despite supposedly being winter themed.
My advice: Ask your DM and explain that this is the conflict that is preventing the cool combination and ask for an exemption. They will probably allow it.
But what if the wood used to make the mask was from a tree that only grows in the frozen north ?
P.S. this is a joke and I agree they don't stack .
*Raise Dead*
Searching for SWD & WW hits better for this thread, so I am placing this info here. Full version with spoilers HERE. Due to the FAQ ruling, I think you can combine them.
spoiler[Witch’s Familiar (Ex)]
spoiler[WW Familiar]
Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability?
It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)
spoiler[Example]
spoiler[Example]
—Pathfinder Design Team, 07/12/13
WW limits the choice, but does not alter the feature. Per the FAQ, I think this counts as NOT modifying the feature, thus allowing you to take WW and SWD.
/cevah
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Scarred Witch says:
"replaces the standard witch familiar."Winter Witch says:
A winter witch has the following class features. FamiliarArchetypes says:
"but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature"
There shouldn't be doubt whether or not you can take Winter Witch and Scarred Witch together.
You can't.
The FAQ states "If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability."
WW forces you to choose from a subset, but it does not otherwise change the feature. Since the feature is NOT MODIFIED, the archetypes can stack.
/cevah
"...for the purposes of rules that improve the original ability."This isn't about improving the ability, this is about archetype replacement. The source of the question was in regards to things like Polearm Master Fighter being forced to take Weapon Training in Polearms only, renaming it Polearm Training; does Polearm Training still count as Weapon Training for rules elements contingent on that ability (ie. Gloves of Dueling). It was not in regards to swapping out archetypes; you can't have one archetype that changes your list of bonus feats and another that replaces your bonus feats feature altogether, just as you can't have WW which gives a restricted list of familiars along with SWD which replaces the familiar with an object.
A point.
But consider the rule that a neutral cleric must choose positive or negative channeling vs. an archetype that replaces channeling. Is he still forced to make that channeling choice? WW does not modify the class feature, just directs you in how you must make your choice in that feature.
/cevah
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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neutral cleric must choose positive or negative channeling vs. an archetype that replaces channeling.
You can't compare a non-archetype cleric to one with an archetype.
If you had an archetype that forces positive or negative and something that swapped it out, you wouldn't be able to use them together.
You can't compare a non-archetype cleric to one with an archetype.
If you had an archetype that forces positive or negative and something that swapped it out, you wouldn't be able to use them together.
Archetypes can add new features (Cantrips, Ice Magic). Archetypes can replace other features (4th level Hex for Cold Flesh). Archetypes can also force choices (Familiar, Patron). WW has no text "This replaces Witch's Familiar". Nor does WW have the text "This ability otherwise functions like and replaces the standard witch familiar". Since the familiar of WW works exactly like the Witch's Familiar class feature, per the FAQ, it still is the class feature. Since you still have the class feature after applying this archetype, you can still swap it out with another archetype (SWD).
For reference:
When an archetype includes multiple alternate class features, a character must take them all—often blocking the character from ever gaining certain standard class features, but replacing them with other options. All other class features of the base class that aren't mentioned among the alternate class features remain unchanged and are acquired normally when the character reaches the appropriate level, unless noted otherwise. A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced for the purposes of meeting any requirements or prerequisites.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature. For example, a fighter could not be both an armor master and a brawler, since both archetypes replace the weapon training 1 class feature with something different.
If an archetype replaces a class feature that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a fighter's weapon training or a ranger's favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability. For example, if an archetype replaces a rogue's +2d6 sneak attack bonus at 3rd level, when she reaches 5th level and gains a sneak attack bonus, her sneak attack doesn't jump from +1d6 to +3d6—it improves to +2d6, just as if she had finally gained the increase at 3rd level. This adjustment continues for every level at which her sneak attack would improve, until at 19th level she has +9d6 instead of the +10d6 of a standard rogue.
WW does not replace the Witch's Familiar class feature. Therefore, another archetype (SWD) can replace it.
/cevah
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Since you still have the class feature after applying this archetype, you can still swap it out with another archetype (SWD).
Sorcerer, Crossblooded and Wildblooded: Can I take both of these archetypes for the same character?
No, because the archetype rules say none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the class as another alternate class feature. Because the crossblooded and wildblooded sorcerer archetypes both alter the bloodline arcana and bloodline powers, they aren't compatible archetypes.
Bloodline Arcana
A crossblooded sorcerer gains the bloodline arcana of both her bloodlines.
Bloodline PowersAt 1st, 3rd, 9th, 15th, and 20th levels, a crossblooded sorcerer gains one of the two new bloodline powers available to her at that level. She may instead select a lower-level bloodline power she did not choose in place of one of these higher-level powers.
We agree you still have the feature, but it has been altered. Just like Crossblooded only alters the bloodline. Altering it by adding choices is sufficient to block it stacking with other archetypes that force choices.
WW does not replace the Witch's Familiar class feature. Therefore, another archetype (SWD) can replace it.
It doesn't replace, but it does alter.
WW does not replace the Witch's Familiar class feature. Therefore, another archetype (SWD) can replace it.It doesn't replace, but it does alter.
I think the only point where we disagree is weather being told "Make Choice X of the class feature" counts as altering or not.
I believe when the FAQ states "If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability", that it means WW does not alter the feature, but you believe otherwise.
Without an additional FAQ or rules text, I don't think we can agree.
/cevah
Neither the Crossblooded nor the Wildblooded archetype states explicitly that either one "modifies" any class ability; but the FAQ states that they are considered as doing so. Modify means exactly what it means in normal English; Normally, you can pick any familiar but the WW archetype "modifies" that to a more narrow selection. It doesn't explicitly state that it's a modification to the familiar ability, but that doesn't mean it isn't. You may require a FAQ to agree, but that doesn't make you any less incorrect right now.
Crossblooded changes how the bloodline works by introducing elements of a second bloodline. While the mechanics of the bloodline are the same, the list of choices is different.
Wildblooded changes how the bloodline works by introducing mutations. While the mechanics of the bloodline are the same, the list of choices is different.
Both clearly change the bloodline, and thus are incompatible.
Every familiar choice allowed by WW is also allowed by the base Witch. I am not given possible choices not available to the base class. I am only told I may not choose particular ones. The familiar works in exactly the same way for the WW and the base Witch. How then, is the class feature altered? The FAQ I posted above seems to indicate forcing a particular choice within the feature does NOT count as an alteration.
/cevah
The FAQ you posted above was already refuted; it's talking about rules elements that improve a class ability. Polearm Training counts as Weapon Training for that purpose, but Polearm Training still modifies Weapon Training in regards to selecting archetypes. You cannot select the Polearm Master archetype with any other archetype that modifies the Weapon Training class ability, but Polearm Training still counts as Weapon Training for Dueling Gloves and the like. You're comparing apples to oranges there.
So, you are saying it is the same for every bit of rules out there except qualifying for archetype substitution? That is, it works for feats, magic items, and so on, but not archetypes. If so, that makes no sense.
words
No need for attitude.
I am not saying there is no change. I am saying the change is covered by the FAQ, and that IT defines it as the same. Obviously, you do not agree with me.
/cevah
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I am saying the change is covered by the FAQ, and that IT defines it as the same. Obviously, you do not agree with me.
The problem is that you are ignoring the relevant FAQ (Crossblooded/Wildblooded) which is an identical example and using the FAQ for things that improve things (like Gloves of Dueling) detect it changed name.
You seem to need to be right so bad that you ignore important advice and stick to irrelevant unrelated advice.
more words
Since you seem to misunderstand me, I am PMing you a detailed explanation.
/cevah
The letter of the law says no it doesn't work. It is obvious that there the context of the FAQ is being completely ignored. It is talking about a very specific situation.
I also wouldn't make the leap that "counting as" means "circumvent conditions that specifically call out a need for the original."
That being said, in home games for something minor like this if the player really cared, I would probably let it slide. Scarred Witch Doctor can be made into a beast on its own, so that may weigh on a GMs mind in whether or not to allow extra wiggle room, but I don't see any crazy synergy between the two that would make them any more broken together than the SWD is on its own.
Tbh I have to say that RAW seems to indicate this is an illegal combination, but I'd be interested to see an official RAI ruling in this.
The WW requirement seems more for flavor than anything else and hardly qualifies as a significant ability modification.
As GM I'd allow it, though I suspect some would see this as "house ruling"