Hey guys and gals,
I am a new DM, and not familiar with summoners and druids. Basically I have a PC who wants to augment summon his eidolon (which is living armor) and soon at lvl 5 (4lvl's of druid) be able to beast shape. Will he be getting all the bonuses +6 str +4 con +1 natural armor all on his X temperary hit point living armor eidolon.
I'm concerned I will be unable to even scratch this guy. Although he is reduced to making only his eidolons lvl 1 natural attacks.
Advice what do I do PLEASE!!
The devs have stated that the augment summon feat does not work on Eidolons, so you don't even have to worry about it ;)
Also, I want to point out that I'm pretty sure wildshape and the eidolon form will not stack because the eidolon's physical stats will replace your druid's stats.
Edit: just in case it helps, here is a FAQ link that will answer some questions about Synthesist Summoners.
Yeah, the Eidolon completely replaces the character's physical stats when he is wearing it through the Fused Eidolon ability. Wildshaping would be completely useless for his character.
According to the wording of the ability, Eidolons are expressly considered "Summoned Creatures" (The same as Summon Natures Ally's "Creatures") and thus should benefit from Augment Summon.
Summoner Paizo PRD wrote: "Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score." Source
As a player doing this himself, and has done an ass load of research for my GM, who was also concerned about this topic... I thought I'd weigh in on this.
You must remember the consequences that come with multi-classing and how they affect the altered Eidolon from the Synergist.
First, and foremost, the Eidolon is Locked at level one for the first five levels of the character's life (assuming it goes straight for Wild Shape after). It's hit die (for bonus con hp) does not increase, nor does it's BAB (important in a moment) as no other classes grant progression to Eidolon, nor is their a feat for Eidolons comparable to Shaping Focus. If your player hasn't mentioned this yet, he's building up to it. As this pertains to Augment Summon, two feat slots will only give it +2 Hit points, and +2 attack/damage for the duration of this dip.
What this means for the player:
His attributes are always based on this Level 1 Eidolon. Including Base Attack Bonus, even if his BAB exceeds the Eidolon's 1.
Synergist Class Feature wrote: The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. (source)
Note how it doesn't say "Oh, hey, if it's convenient..." or "use the higher of the two." It expressly states, with no uncertain conditions, that it out right replaces. This means the Four levels of Druid will not increase his base attack bonus while the Eidolon is alive or summoned. While not present, continue as normal.
That means: At level 5, when the Synergist/Druid has gotten it's 4th level of druid for the purposes of wild shape, and met the requirements for, and taken Shaping Focus. It will still have a base attack bonus of one, and it will still have a base 3-4 Evolution point pool to select from. In fact, the Eidolon is still mechanically locked into the the evolutions selected at level one because they can only be changed on summoner class level up.
Eidolon Class Feature wrote: Whenever the summoner gains a level, the number in this pool increases and the summoner can spend these points to change the abilities of the eidolon. These choices are not set. The summoner can change them whenever he gains a level (and through the transmogrify spell). (source)
Second the Wild Shape:
Synergist Eidolon is a form merger changing the base form. Wild Shape is a polymorph effect cast expressly as though it were a spell with a few conditions. This is different form people's gut reaction (based on 3.5) as it does not replace your attributes with the creatures. It instead gives you a Polymorph effect granting you a bonus. This effect expressly resolves as the spell,(see below) where the druid is the caster (see further below).
Druid Class Feature wrote: This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here... (source)
Text reference Spell for effect:
Beast Shape Spell wrote: School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a piece of the creature whose form you plan to assume)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Effect of spell via spell text.
Exception Notations made by wild shape class feature:
Druid Wild Shape wrote: he effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Beast Shape Spell wrote: School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 hour./level (D)
Being Ex, that does not provoke attacks of opertunity, removes casting verbal, somatic, and material components.
This is a Polymorph effect. (Discussed below)( source)
Something we will be seeing, and discussing a lot in regards to this particular unholy union is the attribute on the magic page in the Players Handbook outlined as "Rendering Useless."
Having something that replaces stats does a lot of hinky things that iron themselves out. According to the Magic Section of the Players Handbook we have the Rendered Ineffective cluase under the stacking effects explanations.
Magic Stacking Effects wrote: One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion. Source
What does this mean for the attributes if they both gain benifit? Simple, the Eidolon still over-writes the summoner's attributes while it is summoned, but the other effect is not dismissed, simply rendered irrelevant under those conditions. Should the Eidolon die, or be dismissed during Wild Shape, the base attributes of the summoner would still benefit from Wild Shape.
Eyeball Friendly Numeric Example:
Player has base stats of 10 str, 10 dex, 10 constitution.
Eidolon (Quadraped for example) has base stats 14 strength, 14 dex, 13 constitution. Beast shape I Grants bonus to strength and dexterity of +2.
Newly Adjusted stats become:
Summoner 12 Strength, 12 Dex, 10 Constitution
Eidolon: 16 Strength, 16 Dex, 13 Constitution.
Third the Proficiencys:
Weapon Proficiency: According to the explanation of Synergist, when wearing the Eidolon the Synergist may manipulate it to wield a weapon because his base form is capible. However when the synergist uses wild shape to change is base form, via polymorph, he looses the ability to wield weapons if the new form is not capable. Synergist Class Feature wrote: The synthesist wears the eidolon like translucent, living armor. The eidolon mimics all of the synthesist’s movements, and the synthesist perceives through the eidolon’s senses and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature. Source
In regards to synthethis and the druid's Polymorph effect the summoner and the Eidolon are the same base creature that forms the druid. Their physical stats are factored seperatly, but as the target of the spell is the caster, and the summoner can not be targeted seperatly from the eidolon they both benifit from the Polymorph effect of Wild Shape.
Synthesist Class Feature wrote: The synthesist directs all of the eidolon’s actions while fused, perceives through its senses, and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature. ... Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature. Source
Condition from Synergist Class: While Eidolon is alive, use Eidolon's Attributes. Thus the player only gains the benifit once, in spite of it being active on him twice. Because of the condition that the Eidolon could be dismissed or die, forcing the player to revert to it's base stats, that are still modified by the Polymorph effect of being in Wild Shape, but rendered irelevant by the superseding bonus.
Armor Proficency:
Druid class grants the Summoner an additional armor and shield proficiency, but at the cost of non-metalic armors as noted below.
Druid Proficiency wrote: Druids are proficient with light and medium armor but are prohibited from wearing metal armor; thus, they may wear only padded, leather, or hide armor. A druid may also wear wooden armor that has been altered by the ironwood spell so that it functions as though it were steel. Druids are proficient with shields (except tower shields) but must use only those crafted from wood. This is important to druids, and to a lesser extent summoners when we consider the Wild (Armor Property) magical enhancement for armors. This enhancement grants the armor bonus to the druid in wild shape. Except the Synergist still will not benefit from it per the rules of Eidolon Synergy (also noted below).
Synergist Class Feature wrote: While fused, the synthesist loses the benefits of his armor. This establishes that the summoner (synergist) neither benifits from weapons or armor, and the powerful enchantments that come from those slots. Nor can the Synergist use a shield for the same reasons.
Attacks Per Round and Base Attack Bonus:
Now that we've established slot limitations countering attribute bonuses we must address the next obvious balk. Attacks per round given by natural attacks and a "higher than normal" attacks per round via natural attack.
Through this route the Synergist has be mechanically locked into three natural attacks per round, with the natural weapons it started with. If it was smart that Synergist would have started with Natural Armor (+2, costing 1 evolution point) (Claws costing 1 evolution point) and (Pounce costing one evolution point). Thus starting at level 1 with 3 natural attacks after a charge.
The problem is, they do not get a 4th natural attack until summoner level 4, which means character level 8. At character level 8, all primary and secondary attack characters can get 4 attacks a round through raw base attack bonus and two-weapon fighting feats. The same two feat slots that the Summoner put into Spell Focus(conjuration) and Augment Summon. Or [for apples to apples] The same two feats spent into Extra Evolutions and Shaping focus (if you perfer).
This means Bards(source) Clerics(source) Monks(source) et cetera. Though, keep in mind, the Eidolon's base attack bonus is 4 levels lower than a Fighter, or Barbarian, making it even lower than a Bard/Cleric/Monk and at this point the Eidolon, even with Augment Summon, will likely have lower attributes than a Fighter or Barbarian. As Quadraped starts with 14,14,13 would gain +4/4, and likely spent it's level up point into con to even it out. Meaning base physicals of 18/14/18. The Wild shape is then on Par with Rage (barbarian), or Heroisim (fighter).
Alternate Ruling:
Darth Grall sourced the following. I feel it's an optional ruling because it did come out after the source material was published, but it is not an errata. Sean K Reynolds, 08/03/11 wrote: When fused, use the eidolon's BAB instead of the summoner's class BAB, and add in BAB from other sources as normal. This is a correction I am happy to have, as it clearly came post publishing of the material.
My opnion, and GM's like me, is Errata or it didn't happen. Which is kind of important to a lot of the bickering about minor wording differences here and there.
In conclusion the natural consequences of dipping Druid on a Summoner balance themselves out and nothing need be done except remain mindful that these costs are there.
@Avatard: Augmented Summoning only affects summoning spells. Summoning an Eidolon through the standard ritual is not a spell, therefore does not benefit from Augmented Summoning. Being a summoned monster isn't the requirement. There is, however, a spell that allows you to temporarily summon your Eidolon. That, arguably, would allow you to benefit.
The nature of a summoned creature, is a creature that is summoned, it qualifies literally all of the conditions of "Summon Monster" Including duration qualifications, the extra planar nature, et cetera. Even the ritual when cast in combat provokes attacks of oppertunity identically to a spell. It simply has a longer duration than Summon Monster, and as a consequence a longer cast time.
The only difference in your argument is that on the Eidolon class description the words Summoned Creature is not in italics, though it expressly states that it is treated as a summoned creature.
If Italics is the whole basis of your argument, I could point to tens of thousands of grammatical mistakes in the entirety of Paizo's publishings for Pathfinder.
The spell you are expressly referencing also functions like a temporary raise dead spell, should it benefit from the raise dead's bonuses as well?
Raise dead spells, especially this one, technically heal a creature from less than 0 hit-points does it gain heal bonuses to boot?
If this PC is a Summoner 1 / Druid 4, that synthesist armor should be really weak. It's only going to have 6 HP, three evolution points, and mediocre physical stats for a front-line fighter. How exactly is it posing such an obstacle?
Avatarded wrote: The nature of a summoned creature, is a creature that is summoned, it qualifies literally all of the conditions of "Summon Monster" Including duration qualifications, the extra planar nature, et cetera. Even the ritual when cast in combat provokes attacks of oppertunity identically to a spell. It simply has a longer duration than Summon Monster, and as a consequence a longer cast time.
The only difference in your argument is that on the Eidolon class description the words Summoned Creature is not in italics, though it expressly states that it is treated as a summoned creature.
If Italics is the whole basis of your argument, I could point to tens of thousands of grammatical mistakes in the entirety of Paizo's publishings for Pathfinder.
The spell you are expressly referencing also functions like a temporary raise dead spell, should it benefit from the raise dead's bonuses as well?
No, it's based on the fact that the standard ritual calls the Eidolon instead of summoning it, and that the ritual isn't a spell and Augment Summons only applies to spells.
But sure go ahead and pretend Kazaan ever mentioned italics. Arguments are much easier to refute when you can pretend they said something completely different, aren't they? Also you are wrong because your argument assumes the CRB is printed in comic sans which it is not.
Let me phrase this in another way that you may better appreciate what I am saying.
We can both agree that Wild Shape is treated as the Beast Form Spell with exceptions? (Something the book expressly states)
That Barbarian Rage is treated as the Rage Spell with exceptions? (Something implied by the nature of the ability.)
The fact of the matter is that the Eidolon is being treated as if it were a summoned creature/monster produced by a Summon Monster, or a Summon Nature's Ally, which gain the benifits of Augment Summon.
Eidolon does not have to be a summoned creature to be treated as a summon monster and that is the body of my argument. Something continuously overlooked in rebuttles.
You may be right, or not, in saying Eidolon class feature is not a spell, it expressly does not say what type of ability the class feature of Eidolon actually is. But it does expressly state that it is treated like a summoned monster, where in the only context can possibly have is "in regards to effects that benefit and hinder summoned monsters" feats included.
I'm pretty sure the Rage spell works like the Barbarian Rage, not the other way around. That's not really a valid argument.
The Fused Eidolon ability doesn't work like Summon Monster at all, though. So it's irrelevant to this conversation.
And I'm almost positive there's a developer statement somewhere that stated outright that Eidolons only are effected by Augment Summon when they are specifically called by one of the spells, but not when called normally.
Whether or not a developer stated that it is, or is not how it was intended to function. Somewhere... The developing company Paizo, did not amend the class through an Errata (official document for amending RAW Rules post production) like other class features have been modified post production via Errata.
When we're talking about the RAW rules, that is what the RAW rules state.
Roberta Yang wrote: If this PC is a Summoner 1 / Druid 4, that synthesist armor should be really weak. It's only going to have 6 HP, three evolution points, and mediocre physical stats for a front-line fighter. How exactly is it posing such an obstacle? I'm glad you bring this up, because the hit-points and the evolutions are not the obstacle, they are the balance. I'm not saying the class is under-powered. I'm reminding the Original Poster that the class has balances that prevent it from being overpowered. The frailness of the Eidolon Armor is one of those balances.
If the summoner is not careful, or mindful of his HP, there are a couple outcomes that can follow.
1: The summon dies mid fight and the Summoner is denied those bonuses.
2: The Summoner spends himself unconscious (HP wise) trying to keep the low HP Eidolon up, and the Eidolon is dismissed, denying him the benifits of the enidolon.
Well the RAW specifies that Augment Summon only works with Summoning spells. And Fused Eidolon is not a spell.
Now we're just going in circles where you ignore the argument I made explaining why what you are saying is inaccurate. So I'll just say again: "Treated as"
Also, the Augment Summon spell was written about 4 books before The Summoner class in terms of it's relation to pathfinder. One of the first rules of multi-book systems, is always go with the most recent publication.
I'm saying you're wrong. You can try and twist words all you want, the RAW say exactly what they say.
Avatarded wrote: Now we're just going in circles where you ignore the argument I made explaining why what you are saying is inaccurate. So I'll just say again: "Treated Like"
Also, the Augment Summon spell was written about 4 books before The Summoner class in terms of it's relation to pathfinder. One of the first rules of multi-book systems, is always go with the most recent publication.
I like how you completely reverse your position from "It doesn't matter what the developers say, RAW agrees with me!" to "It doesn't matter what the CRB says, the intent agrees with me!"
I'm not changing my position. I have made the statement: Errata or it didn't happen.
The Errata didn't happen.
The wording "Treated As" has context (this intent as you call it) from other locations in the RAW (in the very first book of the RAW to boot), so we use the same context and implications as those accepted postings of "Treated as."
I know exactly what I have said and I have remained consistent.
I will note however, that of all of the responses to the Original Poster's question. I was the only one who brought in all those fancy facts, and silly research, you know, reference links to the rules to build a legitimate case founded on logic for my argument.
How silly of me to forget that this is an argument being had on the internet.
So where's the errata that says Augment Summoning doesn't just apply to spells? My CRB's text hasn't changed.
Before I even begin to consider that a "legitimate" question, and not an insulting goad, I'll need you to point to a rule stating that "treated as" expressly does not mean "gains the benefits and penalties of."
I'm going to let you be responsible for your own argument. You say mine's wrong without evidence or research, I can wait patiently while you find it.
You're the one trying to imply that Augment Summon does something specifically outside what it says it does, Avatarded, the burden of proof is on you.
Avatarded wrote: Whether or not a developer stated that it is, or is not how it was intended to function. Somewhere... The developing company Paizo, did not amend the class through an Errata (official document for amending RAW Rules post production) like other class features have been modified post production via Errata... *snip* It wasn't a developer that said it but the head developer that said it here.
Jason Buhlman wrote: Summoning the eidolon is a supernatural ability... and it is not subject to Augment Summoning.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Supernatural abilities are not spells even if they mimic the behavior of a spell. Monk's Abundant Step is a Supernatural Ability that mimics the behavior of Dimension Door. Can you treat it as a spell? No. Even a Spell-Like Ability is treated as distinctly different from an actual spell in several ways. The requirement of Augment Summoning isn't a summoned creature but a Summoning spell; any spell with the Summoning descriptor. No errata is needed because no change needs to be made to RAW; the statement from the head designer suffices to clarify what is required by the feat and how the ability to call your Eidolon is classified for those who are confused. Has your confusion been alleviated? Now go report to your GM that you've been grossly misinformed all this time.
The head developer didn't official errata so RAW says he's wrong, also the rules as written in the text of Augment Summoning don't apply because
"Treated as a summoned creature" does not mean it was summoned by a summon spell.
Consider Rain of Frogs; it summons creatures and has the (summoning) sub-type. It is not, however, affected by augmented summoning as it is not a summon (understanding a summoning spell to be any spell which begins with the word 'summon') spell. (If it meant a spell with the (summoning) subtype, presumably it would state so.) The same can be said of an Eidolon.
@Avatarded: Much of what you say is incorrect. It's not your fault though, the Synthesist is poorly written and has been FAQ'd for greater clarity than the simple RAW in both the FAQ & a thread called "One Syntheist Summoner Thread to Rule them All" where SKR replies in detail to many of the Synthesist Mechanics. For example:
Quote: What this means for the player:
His attributes are always based on this Level 1 Eidolon. Including Base Attack Bonus, even if his BAB exceeds the Eidolon's 1.
Quote: Synergist Class Feature wrote:
The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores.
WRONG
If you read the FAQ on Sythesist, the additional BAB from classes other than Summoner Stacks with the Eidolon's BAB.
Also while I agree the Eidolon is partly "locked", he can always buy a scroll of Transmogrify to change his Eidolon up to suit his needs, even if he doesn't have the spell since he's so low level.
That looks quite like it's in your favor at first glance.
But then research happens:
Doing research on that particular post we can see that it was made during the beta playtest, exclusively referencing playtest material, before the rules of the books were formalized and released.
The closing of the play-test, and the publishing of the book, finalizes the rules regarding the class, which overturns this post as the wording that is now RAW is contrary to that beta-post.
Whether or not the words "Treated as" were in the beta version of the game... The final, published book added these words in, with no expression to the contrary anywhere in the book, where in the previous rules of the words "treated as" must be accomidated for the rules to remain consistent.
For what we have to reference, the Publication made without this statement, is the final word because it came after this beta post. There has not been an Errata redacting it since. Nor was the PRD even updated which is a big deal considering the source.
It was the lead designer who closed the beta, and it is the lead designer who updates the information on the PRD. The lead designer updated other aspects of the eidolon class feature during the beta but chose to leave this class feature as is. Therefore what was true then, is no longer true now, else it would have been corrected. The hard copy of the book shipped out with only some of these beta changes being implemented. No post-publication references (to my knowledge) exist to officially overturn this fact, and if they did, I am absolutely certain someone will throw it in my face without hesitation.
here is a quote of him demonstrating that he can recognize and error, and correct it, and the phrasing "treated as" has not be adjusted in such a way. Nor does it expressly state in the Summoner Class that the Eidolon does not benefit from feats that benefit summoned creatures.
Jason Bulmahn wrote: The claws are primary attacks, not secondary. That is an error. Thanks for the catch, I will make sure it is fixed.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Source
Asside:
Darth Grall sourced the following. I'll make sure to update my origninal post regarding this, though I feel it's an optional ruling because it did come out after the source material was published, but it is not in an errata.
In your notaiton of Transmogrifiy I did address that as well.
Sean K Reynolds, 08/03/11 wrote: When fused, use the eidolon's BAB instead of the summoner's class BAB, and add in BAB from other sources as normal. This is a correction I am happy to have, as it clearly came post publishing of the material, but I myself will not be using.
No Errata so it didn't happen to me.
Secondary Asside:
Whale_Cancer
The book says "Treated as summoned" not "treated as extra planar ally" or "treated as rain of frogs" or "treated as ..."
Soo what would be the benefits of the multi class assuming it is allowed by raw? pretend you are a power gamer wat is your end game with this build?
@Lobolusk I'm glad someone finally asked instead of blaketly saying, without research or facts, that it does nothing.
As noted above, you end up with wild shape, at the cost of 4 Eidolon evolution points (one for each level you're not a summoner, and some other multi-class taxes as well). Wild Shape takes away your capacity to wield weapons and exchanges it for extra attributes (as a Polymorph effect) and additional creature traits, so long as they don't overlap with existing traits gained by your eidolon. Additionally you can wild-shape into elementals who retain the same shape as your eidolon (but generally don't offer animal traits) and gain other benefits for utility. (In the monster manual, for the pictures of earth elementals, there is a rock dog.)
A fair example would be wildshape into something that has claws and pounce, then strip those traits from your eidolon to gain the evolution point refund, which helps mitigate part of the loss.
The cost of doing this is your spells suck ass, even if you can cast them via natural spell. It shifts the Off-Tank/Utility into a (self stable) Main-Tank/buffer role.
In the above example you may have saved yourself only a couple of points from traits, but you can use them to other benefits. What it does for your remaining equipment slots, is allow you to focus more on one singular thing rather than trying to mix and match as being shoved into multiple roles for the party.
Presently my party is running Rise of the Runelords, we have a Cleric, a Wizzard, and a Rouge. No classical tank, so I volunteered to fill this role as a Summoner/Druid. To build this way, as a main tank, costs all of my feats.
I'm extreamly good at two things.
1: Taking it in the face.
2: Convincing enemies it's my face they want to put it in.
This seems like the summoner steals the limelight, but that is only true in circumstances that focus on how awesome it is to be a tank. If that's a problem for your players, encourage them, or the GM to give the players more variety so it isn't just one crawl after another.
One of the very noteworthy caveats is my character has 19 charisma, which is awesome for a dog, but at the end of the day, it still looks like, and acts like a very pretty dog to most NPCs. While they're all at their wizzard schools, churches, or hanging out with noblemen, I'm basically left at the stables with the rest of the livestock.
@Avatard: Augment Summon doesn't require a summoned creature. It requires a spell of a certain type to be cast.
prd wrote: Augment Summoning: Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it. No where does it mention a summoned creature. It says a creature conjured with a summon spell. The Eidolon Ritual is a supernatural ability as per JB (which he has not retracted in over 2 years). It's right there in black and white. It must be a spell, first and foremost, in order to qualify for Augmented Summoning. If, and only if, the spell requirement is met do you move on to consider the descriptor; namely Summon (ie. Summon Nature's Ally). If it isn't a spell, it doesn't matter if it summons something. If it's a supernatural, extraordinary, or spell-like ability, it does not qualify. Period.
Again, consider the Monk ability Abundant Step. It is, also, a Supernatural Ability that allows you to, "...slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door." Now consider the feat Dimensional Agility:
prd wrote: Dimensional Agility: After using abundant step or casting dimension door, you can take any actions you still have remaining on your turn. You also gain a +4 bonus on Concentration checks when casting teleportation spells. It has to call out Abundant Step specifically in addition to casting Dimension Door. If "as if using the spell dimension door" counted, this clause would be unnecessary. There are other abilities, such as Shadowdancer's Shadow Step that Dimensional Agility does not affect.
To make it perfectly blunt, "Treated as a summoned creature" does not equal "Conjured with a summon spell". It's that simple. Black and white, case closed. You pointed out that JB knows when to recognize his errors and admit when he's wrong; why can't you do the same?
SO avatard are you the player master trip is asking about?
Kazaan wrote: The Eidolon Ritual is a supernatural ability as per JB (which he has not retracted in over 2 years). It's right there in black and white. ...Period. Oh, we're back to this again... Great. Let's just recap so we can move on.
SUPER TLDR RECAP
1: This statement was made before the official RAW was published. Specifically referencing beta-material.
2: Other statements were also made about beta-material.
3: Some changes were implemented in the production and published RAW, and some were not.
4: This one specifically was not.
5: No explanation was given.
6: The over-ruling of the details outlined by JB's statement, of the feature, were printed physically in living color when the material was published.
7: No post-publication material (Errata) has repealed this over-ruling of the statement (by virtue of not adding it) made about the beta-materials that were made official by process of publication.
Your argument that it wasn't overturned in 2 years is wrong, as the publishing of a contrary set of information is a statement made by the company as a whole, because this publishing came out after the statements made by JB, and being contrary (or simply different) to those statements constitutes an over-ruling.
Using your argument, while discounting (but not discrediting) mine, is hypocrisy.
Also, your red-herring argument is bad, and you should feel bad.
As an aside Kazaan. Page 33 of the Game Mastery Guide references the GM's right to "Fudging" or "Cheating" for the sake of the story. According to the book, it's your right as a GM to change the rules to fit your game.
But, Understand...
You are cheating your players. Not the other way around.
And you are cheating the rest of your party when you power game, over shadow dps, make healer obsolete and solo the adventure path.
And maybe its because English isn't my first language... But the person who started the thread was named master trip and Lobolisk referred to you as the player being mentioned.
@Necrovox, Good catch. Your understanding of the question (referencing the other people) seems to be rather correct, and it was I who misread it.
A tangent a moment to reference your other point. Scaling the adventure path to match the players is not the responsibility of the players. Any one, multiple, or all of the players can, at any time, power-game their character. It is not the responsibility of a single player, to power game all player's characters so that there will be balance for his character. Power gaming, while following the expressly written rules, is not cheating.
I am not the player, to my knowledge, being referenced by Master_Trip. I base this on the fact that I specifically Emailed my GM all of the research I have done, with all of the questions I had when I started, and we worked through them together already.
As for overpowering/overshadowing DPS. This has already been addressed. Specifically As addressed above, at mid level the DPS actually evens out. Anyone, with any class, can power game. There is nothing stopping the Healer from doing similar things with his respective class, same with DPS, et cetera.
[Cough, Sorcerer with Leadership making a Craft Wands assembly line Cough Cough]
And, most importantly, as an extremely specialized class build, there are many areas that traditional classes also shine that this build simply does not. Again, already addressed.
The fact is the more narrowed your focus as a player, the more you will outshine other players in that one field, and the less you can compete in other areas. Can I out tank a Fighter? Possibly. Can I build a Fighter that can compete with, or even out-tank this character? Absolutely.
Will that character suffer the same fatal flaw of being useless in other areas? You bet.
Just because a character does one thing really well, doesn't mean it's the best character at the table.
I do see a notable bit of irony in the fact that there are people telling me that I am unequivicallby wrong about one tiny little facet of my response to Master_Trip's question based on how relative you can percieve two tiny little words, even after I went through the work of giving an apples to apples comparison of the Feat-slots to Attribute bonuses for said feats.
While every single aspect of the rest of the question has been proven possible with references to the rules.
Not taking Augment Summon, while unfair as it is legal according to the RAW overturns the one voice decrying it, is not going to be an end of days scenario for the character. Falsely saying that it's not a legal move to take something when it is. That breaks games.
The insane reality is that Augment Summon is actually negligible to the performance of the character.
As the Summoner can take two equally silly feats that do not so highly stressed the nature of being summoned.
4 Constitution amounts to a total of 40 hit-points over the course of a of a Lv.20 character. Half of that is gained by toughness (For half the required feats). 4 Strength amounts to 2 attack and 2 damage and negligible push/lift/carry etc even at level 20.
Do I still think a Eidolon should be able to use Augment Summon? Yes.
Is it worth all this insanity? Yes, as a matter of principle.
Will it break the character not to have it? No.
I cast "Wall of Text"
You're all dead. Lol
Yeah... So you get more from one feat than a fighter with weapon focus, and weapon specialization, and toughness... not broken, oh fighters get more feats, yeah, but they have to spend 3 over 1 and still don't compare.
You also have perfect will, fort, and reflex saves, AC, possible Dr prior to level 17, charge and full attack... Fighters don't get what you're getting, so they don't compare. You can also heal yourself, buff yourself, and essentially immune to poison and disease, as it applies only to the eidolon. Sure, in the rules, clearly not thought t wthrough on Paizos part.
Why don't we all just play summoners? You'll all be invincible.
Necrovox wrote: Yeah... So you get more from one feat than a fighter with weapon focus, and weapon specialization, and toughness... not broken, oh fighters get more feats, yeah, but they have to spend 3 over 1 and still don't compare.
You also have perfect will, fort, and reflex saves, AC, possible Dr prior to level 17, charge and full attack... Fighters don't get what you're getting, so they don't compare. You can also heal yourself, buff yourself, and essentially immune to poison and disease, as it applies only to the eidolon. Sure, in the rules, clearly not thought t wthrough on Paizos part.
Why don't we all just play summoners? You'll all be invincible.
Fighters get:
Magic armor
Shields (tower shields grant cover)
Magic weapons (multiple for circumstances including " Defending" type weapons.)
Enough Feats to actually waste a few.
There is a Archtype for the Shield Fighter making it very Damage Mittigation heavy. We are talking a total Potential of over 30+ levels of magical enhancements from equipment (not counting alternate weapon options) that the Summoner/Druid literally can not equip. On that armor Fighters can get Displacement (50% chance to avoid a hit) Fortification (immunity to crits and back-stabs) and dancing weapons that grant haste.
Even if a Summoner got Robes of Displacement, it does not help a Synergist because it is classified as an magic armor.
When comparing apples to oranges it is very important that you find similar things to compare.
Fighters focus mitigation via avoiding hits, Sorcerer/Druid focuses mitigation though self healing. Not being a drain on the party is not the same as soloing the campaign setting. A Summoner will take an ass load of hits, and they will need an ass-load of healing, and the cleric is not going to be able to do it all, all the time, and fulfill it's role to the rest of the party.
This isn't world of warcraft... Mitigation doesn't work all that well when all your big bads have true sight (ignore concealment which the fighter had to specialize so hard to get) and +40 to hit. You also get natural armor, shield bonus, bracers of armor (cost more but make up the enhancement bonus fighters get), necklace with deflection... You have a higher AC, sure, have to be on eidolon, but if you're a true power gamer, you summon in the morning, wear your suit of broken power all day, abs just equip it after summoning.
You can't just say apples are better than oranges and then say oranges don't matter.
Displacement, Cover, and Fortification. Class features of the fighter tank (Who also gets a lot Damage Reduction of his own). A fighter puts on his suit of armor when he wakes up in the mornking. Hell, A fighter can sleep in his armor incase he gets attacked in the middle of the night. Summoner can't.
We're talking about entirely different types of tanking. Let's say for a moment, a rogue feigns and backstabs these two types of characters at level 20. You know, Assuming the rogue somehow got through the fighter's laughably high AC from shield (not able to be flanked shield counts against all enemies) and defending weapon.
Fighter:
Roll chance to hit through my Displacement.
Cool, you made it, I take 1d6 damage because max Fortification.
Oh, Scratch that, 23 damage reduction.
Summoner/Druid
OMG 15d6 of back-stab damage!
Glad I got all this Health...
It's not the same and you know it, and if you don't know it, you need to do a great deal more research before you keep talking about it.
Except you aren't fighting rogue.... You're fighting liches and demons. You also ignore the summoners Dr and undead evolution.
I'm saying that your oranges are rotten, so its obvious you want the apples. You gain the fortification ability to armor, so you save money, because you can't enchant it... But you could probably give it to your eidolon. This fighter gains an ability money could buy him...
You're playing an overpowered class and successfully broke it.
You seem to be ignoring that damage totals before damage reduction is applied. Further, in an unknown adventure there is no garontee what we'll fight.
Except you said you were playing through rise of the rune lords... People on this forum know what you're going to be fighting. And eidolons get same dr.
If, according to your logic, I am over-powered for rise of the runelords. Which I myself have not looked into.
Then it stands to reason my GM will take steps to accomidate that by scaling the encounters, and by consequence change what we fight.
Note that, none of the arguments you have presented has been contingent upon this character being mechanically illegal to build.
Now that said, you just conceded that I undermined your entire argument about the damage reduction. And I'll go so far as to say, True-sight has the prerequisites of sight. Enemies can be physically and magically blinded.
At this point we're just nitpicking at semantics, it's not helping anyone, and I'm not doing it with you anymore.
Well, master trip it is clear by RAW that it wont work. SO I would tell your player no in a nice way.
I once tried to argue that I qualified for a level of dragon disciple has a rogue because I took both of the magic talents and could "spontaneous cast" magic missile. the same logic applies it was not a spell but a spell like ability so it didn't count by RAW.
AVATARD i mean no disrespect but I don't think by a RAW interpretation you can do what you are discussing, I am going to bed i just rolled a 38 on my "its after 10 and I am a old man under 40 check"
It seems Lobolusk we will be intent to agree to disagree. On what that we disagree has already been addressed as the major point of contention. The relative clarity of the meaning behind four little words. I don't see any suggestion that indicates you're talking about something other than Augment Summon as no one was debating the legality of any other point anymore.
At this point, for the reasons I listed, I suspect that there will need to be an official (post production) ruling made before everyone can agree on this point.
As for your particular case with the dragon deciple, I haven't done that research so I wouldn't have an answer for you. Personally as a GM, I allow Rogue's Spontanious Casting from Rogue Talents to meet the prerequisites of "Arcane Caster" as it states that your "caster level is your rogue level" but I'm not certain if that's what you're referencing.
Good Night Bro.
Avatarded wrote: Fighter:
Roll chance to hit through my Displacement.
Cool, you made it, I take 1d6 damage because max Fortification.
Oh, Scratch that, 23 damage reduction.
Your example is Armor Master 20 being Sneak Attacked? Somehow that seems more than a little cherrypicked.
(And where's the DR 23/- coming from? I only count 15 with Armor Master and adamantine armor.)
Ordinarily I would entertain any other suggested scenario you have, but we'd be again, nit-picking semantics of something we've already established is not the job of the player.
And yes, for the purpose illustrating on a crayon-level complexity things overlooked, you could say with absolute certainty that that scenario was cherry-picked and I wouldn't disagree.
What you haven't said so far, with the exception of Augment Summon, that the remainder of the character is mechanically illegal to build, or why that would be true, with supporting evidence.
Augment Summon is still up in the air because of it's reliance on interpretation a non-disputed publication, disputes referenced came before the publication, something I've already gone into in gross repetitive detail, and by consequence am no longer interested in debating. The evidence already exists on this thread.
As for the DR It seems that I fat-fingered it. Reading 12 and typing on adjacent keys came out 23, either way for the illustration more than 6.
I think I will be over-ruling the augment on the eidlon. Most of the other rules are very clear.
However it looks like it IS possible to augment his eidlon if he casts the actual spell, "summon Eidolon"
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-eidolon
The spell "summon Eidolon" already was addressed earlier, and I raised the question how that spell is so different from the actual summoning ritual that a feat would apply to the same creature, called by a nearly identical method, with minor alterations like raising it from the dead and healing it.
No one got back to me on that.
Because one is a summoning spell and one is a calling ritual, and Augment Summoning applies to summoning spells.
If you want to know what makes them so different, you could equally ask why the spell burns a spell slot when the ritual doesn't, or why the spell makes the Eidolon vanish after a few minutes when the ritual doesn't, or why the spell doesn't take a full minute to cast like the ritual does. They are different because they are different.
This comes, again, infinantly back to your interpratation of "is Treated as" that is expressly built into the class feature, after the feat existed, then play-tested. There was then a ruling during the beta playtest, that again was over-ruled by the publication process.
It is an infinite loop of ignoring the text of the actual class feature, because it has a complicated past, and relying on the text of a feat that was created over a decade before the class that has a class feature that references it directly.
The only way it could get any more directly connected was if the word summoned was freaking italicized.
The "Treated as" line means that, for example, the Eidolon can be blocked by the Protection from Alignment family of spells. It applies to affects that care about "summoned creatures", not "summoning spells". The ritual is emphatically not treated as a summoning spell. That's why it's a calling ritual and not an at-will summoning spell. No errata is needed because the words on the page do precisely what they say they do.
Not sure i want to wade in on this but oh well here goes!
From an outside perspective it seems people are hung up on the words summoned and spell. I agree with Avatarded that yes the eidolon is summoned not called as it doesn't suffer permanent death if killed ect. however the Augment Summon Feat specifies spells and so the only way to gain it's benefits is to use a spell slot to cast a spell that qualifies such as summon monster or summon nature's ally.
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