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I'm just curious as to why the Barbarian keeps going into the Redzone, as you put it?
I play with two Barbarians and since Pathfinder it is not an issue at all.
Granted I play a Cleric and keep a close eye on them and time my Channel Energy to heal them so it doesn't become an issue.
But even in 3.5 it only came up once, when a lucky hit knocked him unconscious and we were worried about the Rage ending before he was healed because he would have died. Fortunately in 3.5 Rage didn't actually end with unconsciousness! It does in Pathfinder though!
Seems to me, it is just a matter of teamwork, just like for any other class.
But that is my take, I'd like to see why he keeps dropping so low...
Why not give Barbarins the following.
Level 1: Barbarians can use unused Rage points to soak up damage that would normally reduce them to lower than -1 hit point.
And/Or
Level 6: Barbarians die when they reach 2x their Con score.
Why not give Barbarins the following.
Level 6: Barbarians die when they reach 2x their Con score.
Good idea. I was also thinking of DR increasing slightly when they rage, but there are feats and a rage power that also increases DR. I don't want them to have to much DR. I will probably look at a DR focused build, and a "regular" build so I can come up with something that is not easy to abuse.
Eh, I guess that 'could' work Stuart, but it's alot weaker than the alternative I provided.
In the example listed, lets take... a 7th level barbarian.
2(con bonus from rage) * 7 = 14
and at 7th level my alternate barbarian has DR 3 (for sake of argument lets assume that this barbarian has not taken the extra DR rage powers)
That means that every turn at 7th level, each hit has 3 points of damage knocked off it, and until he's taken a total of 14 points of damage in a single turn, none of those hits count. (Meaning in order for the first blow in a given turn to hurt him it has to deal 18 points of damage, and then it's only 1 point)
This isn't great, and I'm contemplating altering the rage values from going up at 11 and 20 into going up at 7, 13, and 19, to improve this effect. However, it's a very solid approach, and gives the barbarian a pretty spiffy damage sponge per round.
Weaker yes, but it is easier to use [no tracking of temporary hit points every round] and solves the problem of dying when coming out of Rage, and stops any level dipping.
Your ideas are all good, imo, but maybe a little too good.
I think the basics of the Barbarian are ok, it just needs a fix for the death coming out of Rage if you're around 5hp's or less issue.
That's a little over the top (you're talking over a hundred virtual HP per day there by level 5 or so), but it's a cool idea. I might do something like it. Rewarding barbarians for dashing heedlessly into danger is a good thing.
Thanks!
Without further ado, the Barbarian patch.
** spoiler omitted **
I was never a huge fan of having players trapped "below the redline" either, once or twice had a player put in a bad spot where they could not drop out of rage without dying and knew it, but had no roleplay reason to continue raging. My solution for the PF Barbarian was to change Renewed Vigor (which also happened to be wayyyyyy too weak in my book) to the following:
Renewed Vigor (Su): As a move-equivalent action, the barbarian heals 2 points of damage per barbarian level and gains fast healing 2 for a number of rounds equal to the barbarian’s current Constitution modifier (minimum 1). A barbarian must be at least 4th level before selecting this power. This power can be used only once per day and only while raging.
This way a barbarian that's getting into dangerous HP territory has an option for bringing themselves out of it, but still feels some danger at the prospect and has to think ahead a bit.
No offense, but your solution is way too over the top, that's a TON of bonus temporary hp every round.
Yeah, I could see how it could be viewed as over the top. But again, that's how I view Barbarians, and it's worked great in my game, bringing the Barbarian about equal with the fighter in terms of overall effectiveness.
Fighter has high AC and negates a bunch of would-be hits.
Barbarian has DR and Temp HP that refreshes every round.
The Fighter has AC...
The Barbarian has DR, a larger HP total, Rage boosted constitution, faster movement, and Uncanny Dodge (preventing sneak attack damage)...
They don't need to also be gaining the Fighters HP total in temp HP every 4-6 rounds. It's your game though, so if it's working, great, I just know what class I'd be playing if I were one of your players and wanted power.
The Barbarian has DR, a larger HP total, Rage boosted constitution, faster movement, and Uncanny Dodge (preventing sneak attack damage)...
They don't need to also be gaining the Fighters HP total in temp HP every 4-6 rounds. It's your game though, so if it's working, great, I just know what class I'd be playing if I were one of your players and wanted power.
Also, you talk about granting the fighter's total HP over 4-6 turns (which is in all likelihood true) but it's handed out in small chunks that most enemies (especially groups of enemies or really big ones like a dragon) will hammer straight through. It doesn't stop damage from happening, it just buffers a good chunk of the first attack (or the first few attacks when dealing with weaker mobs)
Whether it's handed out in small chunks over time or not, if the enemies are blowing that many HPs away and still dealing damage on top, then at the end of those 4-6 rounds the barbarian would be somewhat hurt and the fighter (along with most of the rest of the party) should be long dead.
It's possible the person playing the barbarian has just built their character very, very badly, and needs the help, but a barbarian should not be _that_ far behind everyone else that they need such an over the top bonus.
You talk about Uncanny Dodge preventing sneak attack damage (which isn't bad, I'll give you that) but the what good does it do against the fighter? (Which, by the way, has truly become the superior force among the non-casters in general, with the Pali pulling ahead vs evil.)
Sorry, I thought this was about a party that included both a Fighter and a Barbarian, not about a Barbarian fighting a Fighter. I was just providing a list of other abilities a barbarian already has to help them avoid taking damage.
Whether it's handed out in small chunks over time or not, if the enemies are blowing that many HPs away and still dealing damage on top, then at the end of those 4-6 rounds the barbarian would be somewhat hurt and the fighter (along with most of the rest of the party) should be long dead.
Basically this.
A max CL fireball (from a 10th level mage) only deals 35 on average, on a failed save. An 11th level rogue might only have 64 hp total. and the fighter won't have much more than 100 unless he's built to be a toughguy. If your 11th level barbarian is soaking 33 points of damage every round and still seriously getting hurt, then one of you is doing something seriously wrong.
It's still an awesome mechanic, though.
Thing is, this barbarian change isn't designed with evocation in mind. (We already know evocation isn't that great anyway) but hey, think about this. In a fight vs a small group of... say orc barbarians, that mage's fireball just blew away their temp HP for the round, without having to worry about the DR, now every shot after that before the barb's next turn is going to be dealing real damage.
I probably would have looked at it as "I fireballed them and dealt zero damage". But hey, that works too. =p
If it works for your game, then it works for your game, but there's clearly something unusual here, either with your actual party chemistry and the challenges you're using or with your collective expectations for how tough a warrior type should be. Your barbarian can completely ignore attacks that would chip off a quarter of the fighter's hitpoints, and he can do it prettymuch every round.
First, I want to appologize, I didn't intend to bring the Barbarian vs Fighter issue up, but you brought sneak attack so I showed the opposite side of the coin. A barb without uncanny dodge would get butcherred by a rogue because of AC issues, while a Fighter does fine without it.
I question this actually, a Barbarians AC shouldn't be that much lower than the average fighter. Lower yes, but not so low as to make this sort of difference. Full plate only has a 1 AC/Dex advantage over a breast plate and Armor training is a 2-3 point advantage at best until relatively high levels. Barbarians will certainly be lower, but they also have more flexibility in assigning their stats (Rage buffs their Str/Con, making spreading their stat points evenly among the physical stats more attractive, and their larger base skill points per level makes a low int less of an issue, plus while raging they gain a bonus to will saves, making a low wisdom less of an issue). Barbarians also have a MUCH larger hp pool to soak up attacks, with Rage and the larger HD you're talking about a 3-5 point advantage in total HP per level, which is huuuuge.
Even without uncanny dodge, a barbarian would hardly be "butchered" by a single rogue, any more than the fighter would be.
I appreciate your input Brodigan. I'm just doing my best to help bring non-casters up to where they should be. The paladin is so very close, and the fighter's not super far off, feat tweaking is pretty much all required to fix the fighter, but the barbarian needs work. The steps I've taken so far just bring the barb up to the fighter.
Well, this I actually agree with. The barbarian as it stands is slightly weaker than the fighter and ranger, and much weaker than the paladin, I just think making one gigantic change like this is the wrong way to rebalance them. (again though, it's your game, I just feel like this is a mistake.)
If you want to see the sort of thing I'd suggest instead, I posted a rebalanced barbarian here. Instead of one massive change that risks breaking game balance in other ways, I made a few smaller subtle changes, mostly to the Rage Powers, to help boost the barbarian up to par. I'm not 100% sure I went far enough, and I might come back and revisit it at some point, but it's definitely a significant improvement, and it's less likely to unbalance everything else.
Also a point of note, I'm a long experienced character optimizer and I help all my PC's build effective characters. That temporary HP hasn't been an issue at all, the barb runs in and eats a beating and hands it out, the fighter takes a tactical approach disabling or stunning or any number of other things, with all his various feat options.
See, I would interpret that as "The barbarian doesn't have to consider the consequences of running in and ignoring tactics, while the fighter has to carefully position himself and delay actually dealing damage so that he can move into position safely." which doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun to me.
If you'd like I could put together their stat blocks and such and record a transcript of our next encounter if you like Hydro, show you how it works out in play. I'd need your email though, I doubt something that massive belongs on the board lol.
Actually I wouldn't mind seeing their stat blocks at least, that might answer a lot of questions (and seems an appropriate length for the board).
Rage: You gain temporary hit points equal to twice your level. You gain a +2 bonus on Will & Fortitude saves. Your Strength increases by 4.
No more dying after Rage finishes, you still gain the buffer of hit points but they are lost first. The strength increase stays the same and the save bonuses are basically unchanged also.
yeah, that's how I did it in 3.5. I don't feel it cuts it for Pathfinder but if your going for a smaller change then single temp hp for the rage's duration is a good one. (I'd recommend also having rage double the Barbarian's DR in that case, but eh, its up to you)
Yep I like the doubling of DR when Raging, I'll use that! However my current Barbarian player is Barbarian6/Fighter5/Rogue4 so no DR at all!
To prevent death after raging we houserule that after rage that instead of taking away actual hit points from their remaining hit point totals they took subdual damage equal to the temporary hit points gained from the rage. This could still cause unconsciousness but never death.
To prevent death after raging. . .
Why is it a goal to prevent death after raging? Isn't the idea that the barbarian doesn't realize the amount of damage he's taken until it's too much?
Am I misunderstanding the meaning of the words 'barbarian rage'? It's not a 'power up' or 'star mode' or 'god mode' or whatever.
I agree that the barbarian who drops dead after rage is a really cool idea, and that's why I've never changed this before.
However, I can understand how concerns of PC survival might matter more to some than what is cinematic, iconic, or "cool". Barbarian rage is a pretty tricky ability.
In 3.5, a barbarian who gets knocked out is dead unless someone can heal him before his rage ends. In Pathfinder, since range ends as soon as you fall unconscious, a barbarian who gets knocked out is just dead: no "ifs" or "unless"es. Once his level is more than half his con score he goes straight from frothing furry to dirt-nap.
There are some feats that will keep you up after you go below zero hp's that seem vital to keeping the barbarian alive long enough to receive healing.
They don't really change the dynamic, though, they just give him another ten hitpoints of borrowed time.
Normally, a character who gets knocked out has a pretty good chance of falling unconscious, which means that his enemies will move on to attack other opponents, which means that his friends (after killing everyone) have a chance of coming back and healing him. It's not a sure thing, and some characters are going to bleed out or else get smacked straight to the grave, but it's another barrier between PCs and death that the barbarian doesn't get. As long as he's still standing, he's still a threat to his foes, and thus he's still taking damage.
At high levels the "unconscious" window becomes pretty tiny for everyone, but by that time you have raise dead anyway. This is mostly a low-level issue.
I assumed that was the original point. As the issue OP had was that their were situation in which the barbarian PC deserved to live. The subdual change is simpler and keeps the barbarian down. I dislike the original fix as it gives the barbarian effectively continuous healing.
Barbarians get rage, which is a very nice power, among other things. The going unconscious and losing the rage boost hitpoints thereby causing death thing is a big drawback. But it is a drawback that can be managed without giving the barbarian class any more bonuses. Diehard is one feat that can keep you alive long enough to get healed. Renewed vigor is a barbarian rage power that can fix you up too. Orc ferocity will keep you up and kicking for one more round as well. But ultimately, if you cannot count on your team mates to understand your barbarian need not to lose consciousness then you can still manage this drawback by opting to drop rage before your hitpoints get low enough to cause death upon unconsciousness.
But I am against giving the barb any more goodies. He packs a big wallop as is and drawbacks give him balance in my opinion.
Barbarians get rage, which is a very nice power, among other things. The going unconscious and losing the rage boost hitpoints thereby causing death thing is a big drawback. But it is a drawback that can be managed without giving the barbarian class any more bonuses. Diehard is one feat that can keep you alive long enough to get healed. Renewed vigor is a barbarian rage power that can fix you up too. Orc ferocity will keep you up and kicking for one more round as well. But ultimately, if you cannot count on your team mates to understand your barbarian need not to lose consciousness then you can still manage this drawback by opting to drop rage before your hitpoints get low enough to cause death upon unconsciousness.
But I am against giving the barb any more goodies. He packs a big wallop as is and drawbacks give him balance in my opinion.
Those Feats and Orc Ferocity don't work.
A level 15 Barb gains 45 hit points from a Greater Rage. If he is reduced to -1 hit point while still in Rage he will drop to -46! Neither Orc Ferocity nor Die Hard will stop you from being dead. Breath of Life is the only option.
Orc Ferocity: Once per day, when a half-orc is brought below 0 hit points , he can fight on for one more round as if disabled. At the end of his next turn, unless brought to above 0 hit points, he immediately falls unconscious and begins dying.
Diehard
You are especially hard to kill. Not only do your wounds automatically stabilize when grievously injured, but you can remain conscious and continue to act even at death’s door.
Prerequisite: Endurance.
Benefit: When your hit point total is below 0,, you automatically stabilize.
Those Feats and Orc Ferocity don't work.A level 15 Barb gains 45 hit points from a Greater Rage. If he is reduced to -1 hit point while still in Rage he will drop to -46! Neither Orc Ferocity nor Die Hard will stop you from being dead. Breath of Life is the only option.
Orc Ferocity: Once per day, when a half-orc is brought below 0 hit points , he can fight on for one more round as if disabled. At the end of his next turn, unless brought to above 0 hit points, he immediately falls unconscious and begins dying.
Diehard
You are especially hard to kill. Not only do your wounds automatically stabilize when grievously injured, but you can remain conscious and continue to act even at death’s door.
Prerequisite: Endurance.
Benefit: When your hit point total is below 0,, you automatically stabilize.
At level 15, some attacks are quite likely to drop you to -46 anyway. Big chunks of damage flying around at that point.
This is still an issue, but understand that as you gain levels it becomes an issue for everyone, not just the barbarian. At high levels, your chances of winding up between 0 and -15 or so are pretty slim anyway.
You may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn't your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious.
When using this feat, you are staggered. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some swift actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. If your negative hit points are equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you immediately die.
Normal: A character without this feat who is reduced to negative hit points is unconscious and dying.
A barbarian's rage only automatically ends when they fall unconscious. Not falling unconscious when they hit negative hp will keep the barbarian alive.
any competently played barbarian with this feat will at least keep a serious healing potion in an accessible location. If they fall to negatives, they will VERY ANGRILY withdraw from battle and drink the potion. Otherwise, they will likely die.
You may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn't your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious.
When using this feat, you are staggered. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some swift actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. If your negative hit points are equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you immediately die.
Normal: A character without this feat who is reduced to negative hit points is unconscious and dying.
A barbarian's rage only automatically ends when they fall unconscious. Not falling unconscious when they hit negative hp will keep the barbarian alive.
any competently played barbarian with this feat will at least keep a serious healing potion in an accessible location. If they fall to negatives, they will VERY ANGRILY withdraw from battle and drink the potion. Otherwise, they will likely die.
Still, I'm not convinced that a class feature that causes death if you don't have the extra feats is good game design...
While I know that any competent player will find a way to keep its barbarian alive, being VERY CAREFUL about running your VERY RECKLESS character is counter intuitive IMO, and somewhat of a mood killer too.
I remember having this discussion over and over during alpha and beta stages. I'd be curious to have Jason's and the rest of the staff's opinion over the subject of barbarian death by dropping out of rage.
'findel
Still, I'm not convinced that a class feature that causes death if you don't have the extra feats is good game design..
Well... except it's not really the Barbarian's class ability that's killing him. If the amount of damage the barbarian has taken would be sufficient to kill him as soon as rage drops, then it would have been sufficient to kill him anyways without rage, rage has really just bought the barbarian a few more rounds.
Is it possible for a character to overextend themselves, ignoring their natural HP total in the heat of battle? Yes. That also happens to be an unbelievably iconic end for a Barbarian, considering the folklore/myths that inspired the class in the first place.
Could it be changed? Maybe, but fights so hard they push a Barbarian right down into the red zone are rare anyways, and would have already killed someone with the same stats and no rage, so I'm not sure it's a problem worth fixing (if the fix causes too drastic of a change in other areas, at least).
Still, I'm not convinced that a class feature that causes death if you don't have the extra feats is good game design..Well... except it's not really the Barbarian's class ability that's killing him. If the amount of damage the barbarian has taken would be sufficient to kill him as soon as rage drops, then it would have been sufficient to kill him anyways without rage, rage has really just bought the barbarian a few more rounds.
In theory, yes.
In practice, while an unconscious character might still take damage (especially from area attacks), they're much less likely to once they're down and out.
Still, I'm not convinced that a class feature that causes death if you don't have the extra feats is good game design..Well... except it's not really the Barbarian's class ability that's killing him. If the amount of damage the barbarian has taken would be sufficient to kill him as soon as rage drops, then it would have been sufficient to kill him anyways without rage, rage has really just bought the barbarian a few more rounds.In theory, yes.
In practice, while an unconscious character might still take damage (especially from area attacks), they're much less likely to once they're down and out.
True, I'll give you that, like you said earlier though, that window of unconsciousness gets pretty slender anyways when enemies start dealing 50+ damage a round (Or in some cases, per swing) at high levels.
You may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn't your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious.
When using this feat, you are staggered. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some swift actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. If your negative hit points are equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you immediately die.
Normal: A character without this feat who is reduced to negative hit points is unconscious and dying.
I think this only applies if you are not dead. It is in the same paragraph that starts with ...
When your hit point total is below 0, but you are not dead, you automatically stabilize. etc etc
...that's how I'm reading it, but I may be wrong. Any Paizo confirmation would be appreciated..!!
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Maybe I'm unusual, but I have no problem tracking the temp HP's.
Simply put, damage taken comes off it, after it's gone the damage is real. Next round bam, same temp HP value is there at the beginning of the Barbarian's turn.
I already said it may be too good, but compare the barbarian to the Fighter or the Paladin and you'll see he's in need of a boost. (Honestly I prefer melee's and Casters to be equally mechanically appealing in my games, so that could contribute.)
Kyrt your solution sounds interesting, we will check it... we have one barbarian in opur party and he might need some help when they arrive to Xanehsa, I use Beta, but the idea is good
and yes.. if this works for your group, ignore the rest wanting to nerf it to oblivion... is the custom.. thanks for leaving it here so othrs can check it.
Dying is the negative hp between 0 and dead point. So yeah you're right. If you have a Con 14 you're dead at -14 and feats don't elp.
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To prevent death after raging. . .Why is it a goal to prevent death after raging? Isn't the idea that the barbarian doesn't realize the amount of damage he's taken until it's too much?
Am I misunderstanding the meaning of the words 'barbarian rage'? It's not a 'power up' or 'star mode' or 'god mode' or whatever.
so... players should not play barbarian in fear they might die?
or play arageless barbarian?the idea of a game is not to get your characters killed... but to have fun...
Still, I'm not convinced that a class feature that causes death if you don't have the extra feats is good game design...
I think this focus on staying alive really misses the point. I've had five? maybe six player kills in my game that's ran about six months. Barbarians are a class that is know for living fast and dying young.
Death is a real risk of the game, and in any edition only gets more likely at higher levels. Of course your ability to deal with it gets better as you level also - in all (real) versions of the game.
This obsession with removing risk led us to a game where every class basically plays exactly the same and everyone has between 3 and 4 times their hit point total in reserve. A IMHO boring grind fest featuring vast wars of boring attrition.
I've read the 1st edition DMG very recently (since I for all intents and purposes run a 1st edition game) and what is amazing is that Gary Gygax addresses the issues of nearly every post on this board. If you're interested, it really is worth picking up a copy and reading.
-Campbell
Am I misunderstanding the meaning of the words 'barbarian rage'? It's not a 'power up' or 'star mode' or 'god mode' or whatever.so... players should not play barbarian in fear they might die?
or play arageless barbarian?the idea of a game is not to get your characters killed... but to have fun...
Yes. Yes, a thousand times yes.
If you are 'afraid' of death, or might not find an epic end to a characters life fun, then you should not play a class that is described as thus
Known as barbarians, these warmongers know little of training, preparation, or the rules of warfare; for them, only the moment exists, with the foes that stand before them and the knowledge that the next moment might hold their death.
The idea of a game is a collection of choices, many of which involve risk. If you don't have risk, then what's the excitement in winning?
Also, and this is a key point. If the barbarian did not rage, he would have died before the raging barbarian. Why are we saying that being able to stay up extra rounds in combat (extra rounds the priest can heal you) is a bad thing again?
Its the fact of instant death after the fact that is the real problem. At 20th level, a barbarian would lose 80 hit points. Your death point we'll say you started with a mighty 16 in con, all stat points piles on, a belt to boost it to its fullest, it is at -27. This means this barbarian leaving a rage with 53 hp or less is just dead. No ifs, no ands, no buts. 80 hit points is a hefty blow, and honestly I don't know to many barbarians that focus so heavily on the Constitution, so this an extreme example. Except even if the barbarian has a lower con, the 80 hp loss is the same at the end of the rage.
And understand a battle that knocked this mighty barbarian to 53 hp would have been quite the mighty one as this barbarian probably had around 370 hp while raging. And battle that has done such considerable damage at the point of the end of a rage there is a chance of very limited healing supplies at that point.
Besides converting the hp into pur subdual damage at the end of the rage, you could halve it so said barbarian would take 40 lethal dmg, and 40 nonlethal damage. Which makes the point at which the barbarian leaves the rage dies instantly would be considerably lower. At 13 hp. Even so leaving the rage even at 53 hp would guarantee unconsciousness at end of the rage.
And understand a battle that knocked this mighty barbarian to 53 hp would have been quite the mighty one as this barbarian probably had around 370 hp while raging.
Also keep in mind that, had said Barbarian not been raging, he'd already have been dead several rounds before.
You're assuming he continued to fight while in the negatives. So he wouldn't neccessarily be dead merrily out of the fight sooner.
Barbarians are a class that is know for living fast and dying young.
I think that's where the problem is. Living fast and furious and dying young should be a character concept, not a "class feature"...
... but I'm not going to try to convince you further. At this point, this becomes a matter of personal opinion. But IF survivability was intended to be about the same for every character class (which may not be the case at all), I think that there is a flaw in the barbarian then.
'findel