How to Upgrade Your Gear in PFS.

[Tony Lindman]

What is really happening is that you are buying a brand new set of armor and selling your old at full price. This has the net effect of "pay the difference in cost to upgrade your armor", but that's just a convenient shorthand. You still have to be able to buy the new armor, either by it being always available (which +1 Dragonhide is not), or by having sufficient fame, or it being on a chronicle.

[Patrick Harris @ SD]

I don't agree, Tony. As in-game rationalizations for out-of-game policies go, which makes more sense?

1. "You managed to sell your Armor +1 at full market value--despite not being able to sell anything ever at full market value--and used those funds to buy Armor +2."

2. "You managed to find a wizard in Absalom, the city at the center of the world, who is good enough at what he does that he simply enhanced the enchantment and charged you the difference."

I'm going to go with #2.

[GreySector]

The section on Purchasing Equipment and Spells (GtPSOP p. 24, emphasis mine) says:

"For ease of play in Pathfinder Society, a masterwork item can always be upgraded to a +1 item without paying for the masterwork cost again. Instead, you pay the difference between the cost of the +1 item and that of the masterwork item. This rule also applies to upgrading from a +1 item to a +2 item and so on—you never have to repay the original cost or sell your current item for half to upgrade to the next step."

It doesn't go into detail about how this works in the game world, but like Patrick says in his post above mine I believe that Occam's razor applies. It does say that you don't sell your original item.

[SCPRedMage]

greysector wrote:

Do you have a source for this? It seems counter-intuitive to me.

It only seems "counter-intuitive" because you're thinking of an upgrade as a separate purchase; you're not actually purchase a "+1 enhancement bonus", you're puchasing "+1 dragonhide (whatever) armor", with a discount because you've already paid for part of it.

"+1 dragonhide (whatever) armor" is not always available, so you need the fame (or chronicle sheet) in order to purchase it.

Remember, it's the final item that matters, just like in the purchase price for fame. You can't upgrade to +2 armor with only 13 fame, despite it only "costing" 3,000gp; it's the final price of 4,150gp + base item cost that matters, meaning you'd need at least 18+ fame (22+ for full plate).

Likewise, if you were to take a heavy shield (masterwork as armor and weapon, 470gp total, always available at this point), to enchant it as +1 Bashing you'd need 18 fame (Bashing is not "always available", and is priced as a +1 bonus). If you were to then want to enchant it as a +1 weapon (so that you could later give it magic weapon abilities like Flaming), you'd still have to have the 22+ fame to be able to buy a 6,470gp item, even though +1 weapons are "always available", because a +1 Bashing +1 (weapon) Heavy Shield isn't "always available".

TL;DNR version: upgrades do NOT allow you to be able to buy anything any earlier than you would have been able to buy it had you simply saved your money.

[Nefreet]

Hmm... does this mean I wasn't supposed to upgrade my starter musket to +1 at level 2?

[SCPRedMage]

Nefreet wrote:

Hmm... does this mean I wasn't supposed to upgrade my starter musket to +1 at level 2?

Since firearms aren't "always available", you'd need at least 18 fame for a +1 musket (1,500gp base price + 300gp masterwork + 2,000gp enchantment price = 3,800gp).

Yes, incredibly lame for gunslingers, but that's the way it works.

[Swiftbrook]

Edit: Deleted my own post because I can't find reference to what I thought I was arguing.

Just My [b]dumbThougths[/i]

[SCPRedMage]

Swiftbrook wrote:

Really, you're arguing about nothing as 18 fame is needed to purchase Dragonhide Plate or +1 Dragonhide Plate. Not worth arguing about.

Actually, no, that's NOT what's being argued, here.

The discussion was based around using 2PP to buy dragonhide armor (NOT plate, as that'd cost way more than 750gp), and then upgrading that. Purchases made with prestige bypass the fame requirement, meaning you could use that to get dragonhide armor as early as your second adventure. So the discussion here is "can you upgrade that prestige-purchased dragonhide to +1 without needing fame?" If so, you could quite easily have +1 dragonhide armor before even having the fame necessary to buy mundane dragonhide.

And again, it's the final item that matters as to whether it's "always available"; you purchase ITEMS, not COMPONENTS, even when upgrading. An item is either "always available" or its not, and the upgrade process was NOT meant to give you early access to anything.

[Nefreet]

According to the Additional Resources a Gunslinger's starting gun is only worth 22gp.

22gp base price + 300gp upgrade + 2000gp enchantment = 2322gp

So only 13 fame required?

[Nefreet]

Ironically, I just checked, and my Gunslinger is at 16 fame as I type this. I'm heading to a game in an hour. Guess it won't be magical for tonight, assuming 18 fame required.

[Nefreet]

Ooo! I have a purple star!!!

[Nefreet]

I'm showing this thread to the ppl at my local store right now and the unanimous response is that you can always upgrade any item to a +1. Dragonhide, musket, whatever.

[Patrick Harris @ SD]

Nefreet wrote:

I'm showing this thread to the ppl at my local store right now and the unanimous response is that you can always upgrade any item to a +1. Dragonhide, musket, whatever.

I'm pretty sure I'm with you on this one.

[Dragnmoon]

Nefreet wrote:

According to the Additional Resources a Gunslinger's starting gun is only worth 22gp.

22gp base price + 300gp upgrade + 2000gp enchantment = 2322gp

So only 13 fame required?

When you figure out the cost for enhancement you base it on the full price.

[Dragnmoon]

To help clear this up...

this is from Additional resources.

Additional resources wrote:

a character must possess enough Fame to purchase any firearm not found on a Chronicle sheet or granted by a class feature.

Any is a very strong word... +1 firearm falls into any.

But is there a difference really?

Let me look.

To buy a Pistol (1000 gp) you would need a Fame of 9.

A +1 Pistol would cost 3300 gp which requires 18 fame.

so yes there is a difference.

of course for firearms the free firearm a gunslinger is not limited to this restriction. This was put into place to limit the power of low level gunslingers and to make it difficult to having dual firearms very early.

[JohnF]

Dragnmoon has it right.

I got my first firearm (a battered pistol) as a class feature of my Gunslinger.

I was able to remove the "battered" condition (which got me a masterwork weapon) as soon as I had the 300gp necessary, because this is part of the bonus Gunsmithing feat a gunslinger gets at first level.

In order to upgrade to a +1 pistol, though, I would need 18 fame, even though I already had a masterwork pistol.

And in order to get a second weapon (a masterwork musket), valued at 1800GP, I needed a Fame of 13. So it turns out that, for a couple of scenarios, my gunslinger was actually illegal; my GM recommended that I buy a musket for longer range. Not knowing any better, I did so; it was only much later that I became aware that firearms are not on the "always available" list.

[Dragnmoon]

JohnF wrote:

In order to upgrade to a +1 pistol, though, I would need 18 fame, even though I already had a masterwork pistol.

Actually for the Original firearm you got for being a Gunslinger you don't have to worry about fame for you +1 enhancement, but only for that firearm. Any 2nd firearms you buy you need the fame.

[SCPRedMage]

Dragnmoon wrote:

Actually for the Original firearm you got for being a Gunslinger you don't have to worry about fame for you +1 enhancement, but only for that firearm. Any 2nd firearms you buy you need the fame.

Actually, I have to disagree with you on that. The Additional Resources page states that firearms are NEVER considered "Always Available", and I've yet to see any official exception made for the gunslinger's starting weapon. I am fully of the opinion that they SHOULD make an exception for that weapon, but I haven't seen one.

As to the starter weapon being worth 22gp, that's the average for the price given for the "battered" weapon the gunslinger starts with. Once you pay the 300gp to upgrade it to masterwork, it is no longer battered, and worth its full value. Since you're not actually making a purchase when repairing the starter gun, you don't have to worry about fame when doing so, but you DO have to worry about fame when you start enchanting it.

[Nefreet]

SCPRedMage, it clearly says in the GtOP that you can upgrade anything to a +1 enchantment regardless of fame. Where do you see that a Gunslinger's starting firearm would be any different? I'd say the Guide trumps all in this case.

[SCPRedMage]

Nefreet wrote:

SCPRedMage, it clearly says in the GtOP that you can upgrade anything to a +1 enchantment regardless of fame. Where do you see that a Gunslinger's starting firearm would be any different? I'd say the Guide trumps all in this case.

Actually, no, it doesn't. It does have a section that says you can always upgrade a masterwork item to a +1 item without having to pay for the masterwork item again. The next sentence goes on to say you instead pay the difference between the cost of the +1 item and the masterwork item, and the NEXT sentence then says that that rule applies to upgrading a +1 item to a +2 item "and so on". Nowhere does it state anything about fame in this, so no overriding the fame requirement.

Beyond that, the closest you get to supporting your claim is that +1 weapons are listed on the Always Available list, which is irrelevant because, again, the Additional Resources page specifically states firearms are NEVER "Always Available". As always, specific trumps general.

And I say this as a man who literally just spent the time to use the Find function to search for EVERY instance of "+1" in the GtPFSOP.

[Nefreet]

You should turn the page:

The next page of GtOP wrote:

Always Available Items

You may always purchase the following items or
equipment so long as you’re in an appropriately sized
settlement (see above):
• All basic armor, gear, items, and weapons from Chapter
6 of the Core Rulebook, including Small and Large-sized
items. This does not include equipment made from
dragonhide, but it does include equipment made from
the other special materials, such as alchemical silver
and cold iron (see the Special Materials section on
page 154 of the Core Rulebook). All mundane (completely
nonmagical) weapons, armor, equipment, and
alchemical gear found in any other source that is legal
for play are considered always available.
• +1 weapons (2,000 gp + 300 for the masterwork weapon
cost + item cost)
• +1 armor (1,000 gp + 150 for the masterwork armor cost
+ item cost)

Now, I'd agree with you that purchasing a brand new, shiny, right-out-of-the-box musket does indeed require fame, as guns are never considered Always Available, but upgrading the one I've already had since level 1? That's a different story.

[Dragnmoon]

By that Logic, I can buy a +1 Firearm straight out without worrying about fame... So I can avoid the fame issue all together.

Sorry that in incorrect...

[Nefreet]

Read the paragraph above what I bolded and you'll have the answer to that question.

[Nefreet]

And, as you already stated, and quoted, "a character must possess enough Fame to purchase any firearm not found on a Chronicle sheet or granted by a class feature." Such as a Gunslinger's starting gun.

[Nefreet]

Moot for me, as I just reached 18 Fame last night, but for future Gunslingers who shouldn't have to wait until level 4 to get a +1 weapon, when everyone else can at level 2.

[Dragnmoon]

Nefreet wrote:

And, as you already stated, and quoted, "a character must possess enough Fame to purchase any firearm not found on a Chronicle sheet or granted by a class feature." Such as a Gunslinger's starting gun.

I agree with the starting gun, the point of that is that for the non starting gun it was set up to take a long time to get one.

[Dragnmoon]

Nefreet wrote:

Read the paragraph above what I bolded and you'll have the answer to that question.

Your bolded part is using the logic that I can buy +1 version of items that are not on additional resources without having to worry about fame.

So the developers of the PFS rules purposely put in a way to avoid fame in buying items that normally require fame?

And to everyone who says that, that makes perfect sense to you?'

Edit: Hey look it says +1 weapons and armor are always available... Cool I can buy +1 Dragonarmor plate or a +1 Musket without the need to have high enough fame.

That makes no sense at all.

[Nefreet]

Dragnmoon wrote:

I agree with the starting gun, the point of that is that for the non starting gun it was set up to take a long time to get one.

Then... what are we arguing about? Lol.

Nefreet wrote:

Now, I'd agree with you that purchasing a brand new, shiny, right-out-of-the-box musket does indeed require fame, as guns are never considered Always Available, but upgrading the one I've already had since level 1? That's a different story.

[Dragnmoon]

Nefreet,

I am arguing with the ones that state that the +1 firearms other the the starting ones, or +1 dragonhide armor do not require fame.

I totally agree that for gunslinger his starting weapon does not require fame to upgrade to +1.

So anyway all I see your point, I just don't agree with it. hopefully we will get a definitive answer.

[Serisan]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand FAQing my original question on page 3. :-p

[JohnF]

The underlying question seems to be whether upgrading a weapon (from M/W, say, to +1) is really still the same weapon, with just additional enchantments (in which case upgrading dragonhide armour, or a gunslinger's original firearm, can presumably be done at any time), or whether "only pay the difference" is merely an accounting trick to keep the WBL under control.

The rules for Heirloom Weapon seem to suggest the "still the same weapon" interpretation is correct, but I'd expect to see table variation.

[SCPRedMage]

What boggles my mind is that people can accept that you have to use the final item's price (ie, the price of the +2 greatsword, not just the 6,000gp to go from +1 to +2) when figuring how much fame you need to upgrade an item, but somehow think you DON'T have to use the final item when determining whether or not the item's "Always Available" or not.

The upgrading items are NOT a shortcut to get things sooner than you could by saving up and purchasing the final version directly. Since dragonhide isn't "Always Available", you could buy dragonhide breastplate once you've gotten 9 fame, but you couldn't buy +1 dragonhide breastplate until you've reached 13 fame. Why should you be able to buy mundane dragonhide breastplate and then immediately "upgrade" it to that +1 dragonhide breastplate that you can't actually purchase yet?

Nefreet, like I keep saying, the fact that "+1 weapons" is listed on the "Always Available" list is trumped by the "firearms are NEVER 'Always Available'" rule in the Additional Resources page. Specific rules ALWAYS trump general rules; here, the general rule is "you always can buy +1 weapons", and the specific rule is "except firearms". Likewise (going back to what originally brought this discussion up), "you can always buy +1 armor" is trumped by "except dragonhide".

As to the "when granted by a class feature", I believe that's to acknowledge that you don't some need fame in order to get the free starting gun that gunslingers are given, but is NOT supposed to apply beyond getting it. You're saying that since you get that gun without needing fame (despite STILL not being considered "Always Available"), you can upgrade it without fame. By that logic, you'd NEVER need fame to upgrade that weapon, even at +2 or beyond.

Personally, I agree that gunslingers shouldn't have to wait until fourth to get basic necessities (yes, a +1 weapon is a necessity, due to incorporeal enemies and DR */magic) that everyone else can get at second. To make them wait that long is stupid and arbitrary. I agree enough that I'd probably let them slide on that paper-thin excuse you just gave, despite the gaping flaws in the logic that I see with it. But there are other GMs whole LOATHE gunslingers, and base many of their judgements on that, and won't let that slide, and unfortunately they have RAW on their side. If you want to be able to do a fame-less upgrade to a +1 firearm in PFS, you need to give a better argument than that. I would LOVE to see such an argument, but instead you're rehashing the same statements over and over.

JohnF: it's both, strangely enough. The upgrade rule explicitly exists "for ease of play", further clarified to mean you don't have to continually repay for the base item. Because it IS an "upgrade", it is still the original weapon, so assuming you're using Masterwork Transformation on the original item and then upgrading that, Heirloom Weapon would still apply, because in-world it's still the same physical item.

At issue here is the fact that in order to upgrade an item, you need to meet all of the fame requirements of the final item, and the fact that there IS a fame requirement is, itself, a "fame requirement". There is no fame required in order to purchase a +1 greatsword, so there is no fame required to upgrade a masterwork greatsword to +1. There IS a fame requirement to purchase a +1 musket (18, to be exact), so you must meet that same fame requirement to upgrade a masterwork musket to +1.

To extend that further, there IS a fame requirement to purchase a +2 greatsword (27 fame), so you must meet that same requirement to upgrade from a +1 greatsword. This is the same reason you need the 27 fame to cover the full 8,350gp cost of that weapon, rather than the 18 fame to cover the 6,000gp the upgrade is actually costing you; you can't use incremental upgrading to slip an item past the fame requirements.

Bottom line: THERE IS NO DANCING BACK AND FORTH OVER THE "YOU NEED FAME" LINE. "Oh, I need fame to purchase this mundane dragonhide breastplate. Oh, I'm upgrading that breastplate to +1, I don't need fame. Oh, now it's +2, I need fame again." Once an item requires fame to purchase, it will always need fame to purchase, no matter what you're adding to it.

EDIT: "The people here agree with me" isn't a rules source or official clarification, so that really doesn't contribute to the discussion... >.>

[David Bowles]

I have always found cash money to be more of a limiting factor than fame, anyway. No item creation is a kick in the jimmies for sure when it comes to decking out your PC.

[Nefreet]

I'm quoting rules as written, both from the Guide and Additional Resources. It's not my problem if you're interpreting them wrong.

Bottom line: a Gunslinger can upgrade his starting firearm to a +1 whenever he/she has enough gold to do it. That is RAW.

I don't care about the Dragonhide argument. You may be right about that much. But I, many ppl in this thread, and everyone else I've brought this up to, agree on the former. I do hope that if you GM for a future low level Gunslinger that you don't needlessly nerf him/her.

[Nefreet]

SCPRedMage wrote:

EDIT: "The people here agree with me" isn't a rules source or official clarification, so that really doesn't contribute to the discussion... >.>

Except when you're the only one on the soapbox.

[SCPRedMage]

Nefreet wrote:

I'm quoting rules as written, both from the Guide and Additional Resources. It's not my problem if you're interpreting them wrong.

That... is not a logical argument. That is the the equivalent of "nuh-uh, you're wrong!", and doesn't actually contribute anything to a discussion. You want to claim I'm "interpreting them wrong"? SAY HOW. Otherwise, you risk coming across as needlessly combative.

You quoted rules, yes, but I then pointed out why they don't mean what you think they mean. Your primary argument of "+1 weapons are Always Available" doesn't work because firearms are NEVER Always Available, as per the Additional Resources page, which trumps the general rule of the list. There is absolutely no way I'm interpretting this wrong: a +1 firearm is NOT always available, as per the explicit ruling in the Additional Resources page, and it doesn't matter how long you've had the masterwork firearm you're trying to enchant, any more than the fact that someone used 2PP to buy dragonhide breastplate after their first adventure doesn't matter, when it comes to whether or not the item is Always Available.

Quote:

I don't care about the Dragonhide argument. You may be right about that much. But I, many ppl in this thread, and everyone else I've brought this up to, agree on the former. I do hope that if you GM for a future low level Gunslinger that you don't needlessly nerf him/her.

Whether or not you care about dragonhide specifically, your attempt to shoehorn the Always Available list into directly saying you can ALWAYS by a +1 firearm because "hey, +1 weapons is on the list, and firearms are weapons" applies to dragonhide armor just as much as firearms. You also went out of your way to flat-out state in no uncertain terms that you do not need fame to purchase +1 dragonhide, in your fourth post on this particular (sub)topic. Even if you haven't brought it up in recent posts, you still seem to visibly support this, so it IS fair game for me to bring up.

Do NOT put forth an idea, particularly in a discussion forum, and then tell people not to talk about it.

Nefreet wrote:

Except when you're the only one on the soapbox.

Yeah... except I'm not. Dragnmoon is contesting your assertion that you can purchase any +1 firearm without a fame requirement, and only agrees that it doesn't apply to the starting gun. JohnF didn't even agree with you on that.

And please, don't read anything into the length of my arguments as to whether or not I'm "on a soapbox"; I'm trying to engage in a logical discussion of the RAW, which requires a little more than "nuh-uh". Add to that the fact that I tend to over-think my arguments, and I tend to develop diarrhea of the keyboard.

---

Now, you may have noticed I didn't bring up the "granted by a class feature" argument again, when repeating the counter-arguments that you flat-out ignored. The reason being is that, while writing this post (which took FAR longer than it should have), I came to re-examine the language used, and came up with a logical basis for it applying, contrary to my initial assessment.

When determining whether or not you need to meet a fame requirement to purchase an item, you need to examine ALL components of the item; if any one of them requires fame, the entire item requires fame.

In this case, the components are:
1. The +1 weapon enhancement bonus.
2. The masterwork quality.
3. The firearm.

The first two are on the Always Available list, and thus have no fame requirement. The final component, the base firearm, is NOT on the list, and thus DOES incur the fame requirement, meaning you would need to meet a fame requirement.

However, the quoted language from the additional resources page removes the fame requirement from that specific component (that in-game physical gun, not any others of the same type), at which point no component requires fame, so the entire item can be purchased without a fame requirement. That being said, it only applies to the starter gun, and not to any other firearm; if you start with a battered pistol, you can't by a +1 musket without having enough fame to cover the full cost of that magic item, nor can you buy a second +1 pistol without that fame.

That right there? THAT'S how you make a logical argument, and that line of reasoning is enough for me to agree that the starting gun does not require fame if it otherwise would still be an Always Available item.

Of course, it helps that I wanted you to be right about the starting gun, as I stated before, even though you're blatantly wrong about all other guns (and dragonhide armor, both points you still don't seem to have conceded).

[Nefreet]

~ "That being said, it only applies to the starter gun, and not to any other firearm"

Thank you for coming around. That's the only point I've been debating this whole time. Your unnecessarily long post was unnecessarily needed.

Have a good day.

[SCPRedMage]

Nefreet wrote:

That's the only point I've been debating this whole time.

Ummm...

Nefreet wrote:

I'm showing this thread to the ppl at my local store right now and the unanimous response is that you can always upgrade any item to a +1. Dragonhide, musket, whatever.

Nefreet wrote:

SCPRedMage, it clearly says in the GtOP that you can upgrade anything to a +1 enchantment regardless of fame. Where do you see that a Gunslinger's starting firearm would be any different? I'd say the Guide trumps all in this case.

No, it WASN'T the only thing you've been arguing; you also put forth the statement that you can always upgrade to a +1 enhancement, even if the base item isn't Always Available, which is blatantly false; this is the statement I've spent most of MY time arguing against, which was supported by several others chiming in about it being wrong.

You seem to have quietly dropped your support of that statement, but by continuing the argument without actually acknowledging it's wrong, you're effectively signalling that you still believe it, and will continue to act as if it is, even after being told it's not legal, including WHY it's not legal.

If you HAD accepted it as wrong, simply STATING that could have cleared a lot of things up, and saved everyone a lot of time.

Nefree wrote:

Your unnecessarily long post was unnecessarily needed.

Actually, my post was necessary, partly to counter the incorrect statements I just quoted, but partly so that when other players happen upon this in the future, they can figure out why the conclusion was reached. When discussing rules, why "X" is legal is more important than the fact that "X" is legal, because knowing why leads to a clearer, more consistent interpretation.

[Nefreet]

SCPRedMage wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

That's the only point I've been debating this whole time.

Ummm...

Nefreet wrote:

I'm showing this thread to the ppl at my local store right now and the unanimous response is that you can always upgrade any item to a +1. Dragonhide, musket, whatever.

Nefreet wrote:

SCPRedMage, it clearly says in the GtOP that you can upgrade anything to a +1 enchantment regardless of fame. Where do you see that a Gunslinger's starting firearm would be any different? I'd say the Guide trumps all in this case.

No, it WASN'T the only thing you've been arguing; you also put forth the statement that you can always upgrade to a +1 enhancement, even if the base item isn't Always Available, which is blatantly false; this is the statement I've spent most of MY time arguing against, which was supported by several others chiming in about it being wrong.

You seem to have quietly dropped your support of that statement, but by continuing the argument without actually acknowledging it's wrong, you're effectively signalling that you still believe it, and will continue to act as if it is, even after being told it's not legal, including WHY it's not legal.

If you HAD accepted it as wrong, simply STATING that could have cleared a lot of things up, and saved everyone a lot of time.

Nefree wrote:

Your unnecessarily long post was unnecessarily needed.

Actually, my post was necessary, partly to counter the incorrect statements I just quoted, but partly so that when other players happen upon this in the future, they can figure out why the conclusion was reached. When discussing rules, why "X" is legal is more important than the fact that "X" is legal, because knowing why leads to a clearer, more consistent interpretation.

You've shown skill in cherry-picking your quotes. If you legitimately thought I've been arguing what you claim, allow me to clarify:

Look back at my initial post concerning this conversation. You'll see my concern has always been, since the beginning, about the battered gun a Gunslinger gets as part of his class feature. Use that as context for every post following.

Look at my reply to Dragnmoon, where I asked him what we were arguing about. His post summed up my thoughts on the matter.

Read my reply to you a couple posts up, where I ask that you not unnecessarily nerf a low level Gunslinger if you ever GM a table. My concern has only ever been about a Gunslinger's starting gun.

You quoted me just now quoting the ppl at my store, yet you weren't reading what I was saying. Analyze the context of my comment. You inferred that I was ignoring the Always Available rules. Never once did I ever state that I was, and I understand them quite well, with the exception of purchasing Dragonhide with fame, which I wasn't even aware was possible until reading this thread. But, again, as I stated, I don't care about Dragonhide's availability. That's not me "conceding defeat" to you, that's me legitimately saying "You may be right about that." I do not appreciate the attack on my character.

And, again, read the entire quote of mine (#3) that you just posted. You'll see, again, I was talking about a Gunslinger's starting gun. There is no dishonesty on my side, just your inability to understand what I've been saying. I did not "quietly drop my support" of anything. I'm still holding onto every understanding I started with.

[Patrick Harris @ SD]

GODDAMMIT YOU TWO DONT MAKE ME TURN THIS CAR AROUND

[Nefreet]

Now that everyone's on the same page we can go back to debating the important things, like what constitutes an "evil act"...

[Matthew Morris]

This seems like the thread to ask a couple of questions.

a) Wizards/Arcane Duelists still need to pay 'full price' to upgrade bonded weapons/items, correct? I have to pay 2000 GP to make my bonded sword a +1 bonded sword.

b)Grandfather's old axe paradox. If I have an heirloom weapon, it's still an heirloom weapon even if I get masterwork transformation cast on it? Is it still an heirloom weapon if I have it enchanted? What if I replace the haft of my heirloom dwarven waraxe with darkwood? Or the head with adamantine?

"This is my Grandfather's Axe. The head's been replaced twice, and the handle thrice, but this is still my Granfather's Axe."

[Jiggy]

Matthew Morris wrote:

This seems like the thread to ask a couple of questions.

a) Wizards/Arcane Duelists still need to pay 'full price' to upgrade bonded weapons/items, correct? I have to pay 2000 GP to make my bonded sword a +1 bonded sword.

FAQ

Quote:

b)Grandfather's old axe paradox. If I have an heirloom weapon, it's still an heirloom weapon even if I get masterwork transformation cast on it? Is it still an heirloom weapon if I have it enchanted? What if I replace the haft of my heirloom dwarven waraxe with darkwood? Or the head with adamantine?

I *think* casting masterwork transformation on it and enchanting it will have it be the same item. But you already don't get to take an existing item and swap in alternate materials, so I don't see why this would be an exception.

[Matthew Morris]

Thank you Jiggy, I checked here, and the guide, but no joy.

I don't think that you can swap out parts either, Grandfather's Axe aside. That's why I put Adamantine powder in my Donna's Dozens some time ago :-) But if I'm going to ask, why not go all the way?

[Nefreet]

Hmmm. Does that mean that if my wizard saves up 20k, and waits until he has 36 Fame, he could turn his bonded ring into a Ring of Wizardry I?

[Aelryinth]

Clarification:

Adding material to an item is simply adding cost and a template.

So, why couldn't you make an Adamantine Sword a Flame Tongue? IT's the exact same cost as a Flame Tongue, you simply add the cost of the Adamantine.

Likewise, Celestial Mail/Plate is not made of any specific metal. You should be able to upgrade a mithral set to Celestial, simply by adding the cost of mithral to the total cost of the product, adding the template, and then subtracting the difference of what has already been done.

I'm not sure why you'd need a +10 Dex mod in PFS, but it's there.

Or is this simple application of the basic rules not possible in PFS? Seems counter-intuitive.

==Aelryinth

[Matthew Morris]

It's a chicken and egg question Aetlynith.

In standard crafting, you're adding enchantments to an item. To replace, say, your steel long sword with an adamantine blade the enchantments are (arguably) on the blade. You can't 'move' them to another blade. The Adamantine blade is a different blade than the steel one.

It's the same thing with how Heirloom and Masterwork interact with the black blade magus. Strictly with in game play, you start with a normal weapon as your heirloom, but the Blackblade has always been masterwork. MEchanically saying Grandfather's Longsword is a normal sword that you magicked into masterwork is fine, but the mechanics don't support it becoming a Blackblade. (Now, I suppose if you built the first few levels with GM credit, it could be explained that you started with an inert black blade as the family heirloom, and then it 'awoke', since you never played that PC before)

With enchanting/replacing parts on the heirloom weapon it really can become a grandfather's axe question. If the weapon gains the broken condtion, it can be repaired. It's *not* the same blade, since it's been reforged, but it somehow retains all the unique properties that make it the heirloom weapon. If you can masterwork transformation it, it [b]still retains the unique properties.

So like Grandfather's Axe, how much can you modify until the original no longer exists?

[Aelryinth]

I'm not talking about moving enhancements from an existing steel armor to a mithral suit.

I'm talking about making an adamantine sword, and making it a Flame Tongue. Or Celestial Armor, and making it mithral. The only thing is price and template that comes into interaction.

I'm not talking about zapping a flame tongue and making it adamantine. Totally different. Magic items are already masterwork, it's figured into the cost. Technically speaking, the only thing you should have to do is add the cost of adamantine to the final price, subtract off the current price (already figured in), and pay the difference on it, just as if it was made of steel.

Hrm.

==Aelryinth

[Matthew Morris]

Ah, my apologies. I read "So, why couldn't you make an Adamantine Sword a Flame Tongue? IT's the exact same cost as a Flame Tongue, you simply add the cost of the Adamantine." as "taking my existing flame tongue, and making it adamantine."

Sorry.

[Azothath]

okay - the upgrade rules do not allow amulets to be upgraded as they aren't a headband or belt, BUT I think it should be legal for this specific case as it is a bonded object of a Wizard.

Amulet of Spell Cunning (APG) $10000 should be upgradeable to an Amulet of Spell Mastery (UE) $22000. Both use the same Feat and have the same requirement. As a bonded object it is a caveat that the Wizard gets it at half cost. Thus the upgrade cost for the wizard with it as his bonded object is 22000/2 -10000/2 =6000.

of course the Wiz needs the Fame for the $22000 item.