Ok i started a thread earlier about ranged rouges. my decision was not to do one at the end.
Any way the PC we have in the group are
A human barbarian wielding a great sword
A human Magus going two weapon wielder
A gnome Druid going with pet
A ranged class He's thinking of gunslinger or Archer
A monk unknown what race or way hes going
A rouge probably going tengu swords master to assissian so not a trap finder
I was thinking Archelogist bard that primarily ranged to help with our one ranged fighter (unfortunately Druid is going to be healer). I am looking for help in how to build this guy and what if any other classes i should take (Fighter, Ranger, Inquisitor?)
I was thinking of being a gnome. the stats i rolled are 13,13,15,14,15,12.
probably going to use crossbow (Or ma-by repeating crossbow?).
Your party:
- Barbarian
- Magus
- Druid (pet)
- Monk
- Rogue
- Archer/Gunslinger
- You!
First, I must say that I think a Bard would greatly benefit this party. With six allies to buff, all of whom are dealing physical damage (plus the Druid's pet) and many of whom will have many attack rolls per round (Monk flurry, Archer/Gunslinger rapid shot, etc.) the benefit from Inspire Courage will be enormous!
However, the Archeologist archetype gives up the Bard's signature ability:(
If I were building a bard for this group, and wanted to do ranged combat, I'd build something like this:
Race: Halfling (or human)
Class: Bard
Archetype: none
STR 13 -2 = 11
DEX 15 +2 = 17
CON 14 +0 = 14
INT 13 +0 = 13
WIS 12 +0 = 12
CHA 15 +2 = 17
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, etc.
Man, seven PC's is a huge group. I really can't imagine running with more than five.
Our group is smaller than that (4 PC's) and we have a Halfling Archeaologist who primarily uses the shortbow as one of our characters. We also expect/suspect that Ameiko will be joining our group at some point so we shouldn't be missing out on Inspire Courage. We'll see.
I'll see if I can find the build we're going to be using for him.
thanks for the help Blueluck. see the problem is if the rouge is going tengu swordsmaster (I am Farley sure he is)he doesn't get trap sense. and he doesn't want to be the primary trap finder. so the fact that i can buff via spells and find traps is why i was thinking archaeologist.
Wiggz i would love to see your build for him any help would be appreciated. also we are doing this at a local Comic and games store so we may or may not have that many people 4 or 5 always show up.
Please continue to give advice i have plenty of time to think it over we wont start playing for almost a month.
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Any one can find traps if there perception is high enough. You only need trap finding to disable magic traps. Any one can take vagabond child trait and gain disable device as a class skill. Then use other ways of dealing with magic traps.
The bard is a good choice. Inspire Courage is great but it is mind affecting, and language dependent so the animal companion is not affected by it.
My suggestion is to go with Half Elf. So you can pick up Ancestral Arms to start with Elven Curve Blade. Long bow is not that much better then a short bow. The melee weapons on the other hand can be limiting. That gives you the option of melee if needed. There is Aasmair as well they gain +1/2 to one performance as there favored class. This with inspire courage is very good combination. Human is not a bad choice as the exta skill points go along way for bards.
I have a personal dislike for most of the bard archetypes. There are exceptions but not many. Over all the base bard is very versatile and most archetypes limit them.
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Another problem with archaeologist for ranged builds is the archetype benefits from Lingering Performance to the point where it's basically a required feat. Ranged builds being feat intensive already, if you go as a gnome you may not get Precise Shot until level 5.
I would recommend core bard with the Vagabond Child trait as calagnar suggests. Going ranged would benefit your primarily melee group, and you'd have a lot to offer them.
If you went human, you could start off with Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot right at 1st level, and you'd be fine with a Dexterity of 17 and a Charisma of 15.
@calagnar: You are incorrect on animal companions not being affected by Inspire Courage. While it is mind-affecting, it does not say anywhere that it is language dependant; furthermore, animals can be effected by mind-affecting effects. Just because you must choose audible or visual components does not mean you're shouting words at them.
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Each bardic performance has audible components, visual components, or both.
If a bardic performance has audible components, the targets must be able to hear the bard for the performance to have any effect, and such performances are language dependent. A deaf bard has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use a bardic performance with an audible component. If he fails this check, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Deaf creatures are immune to bardic performances with audible components.
I am looking to help out the team and have the ability to find and disable traps.
would inquisitor with that vagabond child be another alternative since you can get the spell find traps and there teamwork feats would help the team. bane ability would help increase the damage.
tho not a utilitarian as the bard it could be useful. just thinking out loud so comments appreciated.
Wiggz i would love to see your build for him any help would be appreciated. also we are doing this at a local Comic and games store so we may or may not have that many people 4 or 5 always show up.
Here you go - now this character isn't necessarily optimized, but he's very well built and has worked out wonderfully for our party. Other posters are correct that if you're worried about optimization then a standard Bard would probably be more effective since Inspire Courage is so potent in large groups. Me, I don't necessarily base everything about my characters on their pure min/max potential. I come up with a concept I like and, within the framework of that concept, try to make them as effective as possible.
Halfling Archeologist
Attributes:[i] (20 point buy)
STR - 10
DEX - 16 (+1 at 4th, 8th, 12th and 16th level)
CON - 12
INT - 14
WIS - 11 (+1 at 20th level)
CHA - 16
Traits:
Maestro of the Society
Goldfinger (Disable Device)
Feats and Rogue Talents:
1st - Lingering Performance
3rd - Point Blank Shot
4th - Rogue Talent: Trap Spotter
5th - Rapid Shot
7th - Precise Shot
8th - Rogue Talent: Combat Trick (Manyshot)
9th - Weapon Focus: Bow
11th - Arcane Strike
12th - Advanced Rogue Talent: Feat (Snap Shot)
13th - Improved Snap Shot
15th - Combat Reflexes
16th - Advanced Rogue Talent: Opportunist
17th - Deadly Aim
19th - Iron Will
20th - Advanced Rogue Talent: Slippery Mind or Hard to Fool
Skills:
Acrobatics (1 rank/level)
Disable Device (1 rank/level)
Knowledge: History (1 rank/ even level)
Knowledge: Local (1 rank/ odd level)
Linguistics (1 rank/level)
Perception (1 rank/level)
Spellcraft (1 rank/level)
Stealth (1 rank/level)
UMD (1 rank/level)
Keep in mind that Archeologists don't get Disable Device as a class skill, which is why the trait Goldfinger was taken. I also selected the alternate racial feat Fleet of Foot so as not to slow the party down.
This character was designed more as charming but kind of bookish, endlessly fascinated with maps, unknown languages, ancient history and so forth. He's not an optimized archer, just an effective one. I take Precise Shot a little later than most, but the character would tend to shoot at unengaged foes in the rear and when there were none, cast spells or use a wand. Obviously you can tweak anything as you see fit to better represent your character concept.
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Each bardic performance has audible components, visual components, or both.
If a bardic performance has audible components, the targets must be able to hear the bard for the performance to have any effect, and such performances are language dependent. A deaf bard has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use a bardic performance with an audible component. If he fails this check, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Deaf creatures are immune to bardic performances with audible components.
So make it visual and animal companions can benefit. Thanks for the rules update.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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+1 to go with a non-archetype bard... or maybe just sound striker. Inspire courage is always helpful. Inspire courage plus extended good hope plus haste is DECISIVE in a melee-based party of that size past about 7th-8th level. If those 3 things are up you are giving the party, at a minimum, +5 to hit, +4 to damage, +1 to AC, +3 to Ref, +2 to Fort and Will, +2 to all skills, +30 ft. movement, and an extra attack. Enemy hp will just melt away.
If you go ranged, go human. The bonus feat is very important because ranged combat requires at least 4 feats to be decent at it (PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim). As a human you can get there by 5th level. Any other race it won't be until 7th. Although I can see merit in going with another race, since you don't really need Deadly Aim to be contributing to the party's damage output. Deadly Aim is icing on your own cake, though.
Bard buffs are critical to overcoming the penalties you take from Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim, and to boosting your overall damage output. Fully buffed you will be a freaking machine gun.
I would also go with a non-archetype Bard, unless that archetype involves more healing. A standard Bard build is definitely the way to go. That being said, I am running that campaign now with a Bard/Witch (ish) with the Hedge Witch archetype for healing on the fly. It's a pretty good setup. I function as multi-tasking utility, trip monster with area affect weapons (poison sand tube, etc...)
The hexes come in super handy, especially Fly and Slumber.
I like the ideas and greatly appreciate them.
would a dip into fighter be wort it (to speed up ranged ability).
And is there any other classes other than bard of any archetype that would help this group i know were low on healers.
Or is strait up bard still my best choice.
All your advice has given me much food for thought on how i want to do this so keep it coming.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I would not dip fighter for the feats for ranged. You will contribute far more to the party's damage output with your buffs than with your bow.
Stock up on cure light wounds wands and you will be OK for healing. By the time I was 12th-15th level, I was carrying around 2 or 3 of those because I would go through maybe 1 per adventuring session. Anyone in the party who can use one should carry one. The druid should be able to pick up the slack on condition removal stuff like delay poison, remove disease, heal, etc. Raise dead will always be an expensive problem for the party without a cleric, but your buffs should mean that party members die less often.
You will also find yourself filling in as arcane utility caster, but the druid should be able to handle most common utility stuff.
I like the ideas and greatly appreciate them.
would a dip into fighter be wort it (to speed up ranged ability).
And is there any other classes other than bard of any archetype that would help this group i know were low on healers.
Or is strait up bard still my best choice.
All your advice has given me much food for thought on how i want to do this so keep it coming.
I dipped into fighter a bit for feats, and because my party lacked melee abilities. But it definitely wasn't necessary to be functional.
What do you guys think about the Archivist bard.
You loose inspire courage. but Naturalist give you a insight bonus on ac and atk rolls and gives you saving throws against exceptional, supernatural and spell like abilities. it says against Creatures but would that include standard races? (dwarf, elf, half-orc)
but it other abilites are based on Facinate that acording to the book can not be done in combat. and to get thoes you loose inspire greatness and mass sugesstion.
it also allows you do disable magic traps and you get lore master and jack of all trades earlier.
(the idea of basicly a collage professor going with a band of cutthroats is funny)
And again thanks for the help
Vanilla bard is still a great way to go, but perhaps you might look at:
Would make you a bit more utility and help with crowd control.