Enhancing unarmed weapons?

[elgabalawi]

a bit new here, and i've been looking around but still can't tell what the rules are concerning enchanting unarmed weapons (gauntlets) or light weapons that describe themselves as enhancing unarmed strikes (cestus, brass knuckles . . .).

i feel as though i've read a lot of frustration over the price of AoMF for monks, and other unarmed fighters, but wouldn't enchanting one of these weapons get around that? is that not allowed for some reason i'm missing? or does the dice damage difference matter that much? (i always assumed that the additions to the die were more important).

i'm thinking of creating a MoM2/Brawler, so i'd love some clarification on all this.

thanks in advance for any given.

[blackbloodtroll]

There are no "unarmed" weapons other than the Unarmed Strike.

All other "unarmed" weapons have been errata'd as light manufactured weapons.

Invest in a Amulet of Mighty Fists.

[Kahn Zordlon]

In addition to AoMF, potions of magic fang or a nice castor in your group might be able to help you out.

[Weirdo]

If you only have two levels in MoMS, you won't miss much by giving up on the monk's improved Unarmed Strike damage. Once you get a budget for magic items, grab a cestus and enchant it as a normal weapon (2K for +1, 9K for +2, etc). You'll only do d4 base damage, but your threat range is 19-20, you have the option to do piercing damage, and it's much cheaper to enhance than an AoMF. Your actual damage output will easily be better.

Otherwise, you'll need AoMF and/or Magic Fang. Monk's Robes also boost UAS damage.

[elgabalawi]

Weirdo wrote:

If you only have two levels in MoMS, you won't miss much by giving up on the monk's improved Unarmed Strike damage. Once you get a budget for magic items, grab a cestus and enchant it as a normal weapon (2K for +1, 9K for +2, etc). You'll only do d4 base damage, but your threat range is 19-20, you have the option to do piercing damage, and it's much cheaper to enhance than an AoMF. Your actual damage output will easily be better.

Otherwise, you'll need AoMF and/or Magic Fang. Monk's Robes also boost UAS damage.

so you can enchant the light weapons listed as enhancing unarmed damage. good to know. i was having a really hard time getting a straight answer on that, and it did seem that doing that made more sense than spending all the money (and the slot) on AoMF.

another question then: Does the brawler enchant from UE or whathaveyou stack with enchantments put on things like a cestus?
oh, and you still get bonuses from things like dragon style when using a "weapon" with unarmed strikes too, right?

thanks so much.

[Weirdo]

There's a bit of confusion here due to a rule change with these items (the errata blackbloodtroll mentioned). At least one developer (SKR) has stated that these weapons should function in all ways like manufactured weapons and not like unarmed strikes. This would suggest that you can't use a gauntlet or cestus with combat styles (or at least, you wouldn't get UAS-specific style benefits like Dragon Style's bonus damage).

Despite this statement, the gauntlet and cestus (though not brass knuckles) still have language in their descriptions suggesting that attacks with these weapons are also unarmed strikes.

Gauntlet wrote:

This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack.

This is also located in the "unarmed attacks" section of the weapons table. This suggests to me that a gauntlet can be used with style feats or other feats that improve UAS.

Cestus wrote:

While wearing a cestus, you are considered armed and your unarmed attacks deal normal damage. If you are proficient with a cestus, your unarmed strikes may deal bludgeoning or piercing damage.

This is a bit less clear than the gauntlet. It's also listed under manufactured weapons, not unarmed attacks. But the description still suggests that these work like unarmed strikes for style feats, etc.

Brass Knuckles wrote:

Brass knuckles allow you to deal lethal damage.

I think what happened here was that they removed the line "with your unarmed strike" - otherwise they shouldn't have to specify that weapon damage is lethal. So this one seems to be a no on the UAS - but why would you use it anyway if either the gauntlet or the cestus (which are both mechanically better) will work?

The armour enchantment gives an untyped bonus, so it stacks with benefits from AoMF and Magic Fang, and will apply to the gauntlet/cestus assuming that counts as an unarmed strike. "Brawling" can't be added to Bracers of Armour, so you'll want to wear light armour and lose your ability to add your Wis to AC (one less reason to get Monk's Robes).

I am not an expert and as far as I can tell there is still some debate on whether it does/should work this way. Don't trust my advice for PFS and check with your GM before using this in-game.

[elgabalawi]

thanks for the added thoughts. maybe the lack of clarity was why i was having so much trouble getting anyone to even address this before.

[blackbloodtroll]

Even though it was stated to be updated in Ultimate Equipment, the Gauntlet is still worded the same.
All other "unarmed" weapons have been officially errata'd as light weapons, and reprints of them show that.

The Gauntlet has been FAQ'd that it will not do Monk Unarmed damage, and he cannot flurry with it.

The Gauntlet is the only item that still lies in a grey area.

As I said, it was stated by Developers to be errata'd soon.

This ultimately means you walk a fine line with the Gauntlet, and you should expect it to be in full black and white soon.

[Weirdo]

Probably. It's also tied up in all the monk discussions on the forums, which are rather heated. Everyone's got an opinion on whether or not the monk needs fixing, and if so how to fix it.

[deuxhero]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

There are no "unarmed" weapons other than the Unarmed Strike.

All other "unarmed" weapons have been errata'd as light manufactured weapons.

Invest in a Amulet of Mighty Fists.

Assuming you aren't using the inane flurry retcon past AoMF +1, Allying Gauntlet +x is actually better (and you can even throw in AoMF +1 if you use it for special effects like flaming).

[blackbloodtroll]

What flurry retcon? Nothing has changed.

[elgabalawi]

so they fixed stuff, but it still refers to unarmed damage in the descriptions? or are the fixed versions somewhere other than the d20. . . site? i'm sure once i've been involved in this longer i'll understand why it needs to be so confusingly worded, but for now it just seems, well, confusingly worded.

when fist delving into the monk threads (and was only looking at the crb so hadn't noticed the light weapons that described themselves as enhancing unarmed damage), i assumed that the monks were frustrated because there was nothing to enchant and still use flurry, where as someone like me wanting to just dip in monk and then go fighter could enchant gauntlets (and then i noticed the other things) since i wouldn't be using flurry anyway, but now it's seeming that even that is unclear.

[Weirdo]

You can flurry with brass knuckles or a cestus.

I think the issue is that there's nothing they can enchant and still do enhanced unarmed damage - the manufactured weapon damage always overrides the monk table. The prd still has the line about brass knuckles doing unarmed strike damage, but the d20pfsrd has removed it. I believe there was an errata somewhere.

Because of the confusion, I recommend avoiding monks in PFS and asking your GM how this would work in a home game. If the GM in a home game says you can use Dragon Style with a gauntlet and/or cestus, it doesn't matter what the book says. Make your case (possibly with the help of this thread) and see what he/she thinks.

If I were the GM, I would definitely let you use a gauntlet like this and probably also a cestus.

[Chief Cook and Bottlewasher]

There's also an issue with overcoming DR/silver and DR/cold iron.